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Thread: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Bulgaria

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by SerbianWOLF View Post
    Maybe he is talking about byzantine triangle shaped shields (bulgarian spearmen have them). Well only Balkan armies used them
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Yes the triangular ones are kite shields the one you posted is almond shield. They were both used in mid XIV century. The kite started being phased out but still in use.
    The way I see it the Bulgarian spearmen are wearing almond shields, which are basicaly just an a bit more compact version of the kite shields. From the few Central European sources I have seen that both were replaced by the heater shield during the 13th-14th century, so the very small and strictly triangular shields.
    I also looked for Balkanese sources from the 14th and 15th century depicting kite / almond shields, but I dont found any. Can you maybe post a few here?

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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    The way I see it the Bulgarian spearmen are wearing almond shields, which are basicaly just an a bit more compact version of the kite shields. From the few Central European sources I have seen that both were replaced by the heater shield during the 13th-14th century, so the very small and strictly triangular shields.
    I also looked for Balkanese sources from the 14th and 15th century depicting kite / almond shields, but I dont found any. Can you maybe post a few here?
    Oh no, the almond shield was well in use up until at least the end of the XIVth century.

    The kite shield was still in existence at least in mid XIVth century as per both Osprey and Ian Heath



    I can't speak for others as much but the armies of Wallachia and Moldova still used almond shields in the XVth century. We used monastery paintings aswell as illustrators and reconstructions. For example the Romanian historian and painted Radu Oltean shows the Battle of Rovine in 1395 with the Wallachians using almond shields. Also there are several shields in museums labelled as XIV or even XVth century with almond shape for example the Military Museum in Bucharest and the Neamt Citadel Museum in Suceava.

    As an example the smalled almond shield on the left here is dated early XVIth century


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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Triangular shields started replacing almond shields in 14. century, and triangular were predominant in Tsardoms period but almont still remained ocasionaly in use.

    I dont think heather shields ever came in massive use in southern Balkans. Long triangular shield was replaced by Tarca and Bosnian/hussar shields in 15. century.

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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    I can't speak for others as much but the armies of Wallachia and Moldova still used almond shields in the XVth century. We used monastery paintings aswell as illustrators and reconstructions.
    Could you show such a monastry painting? They are my favourite type of source for Medieval stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    Triangular shields started replacing almond shields in 14. century, and triangular were predominant in Tsardoms period but almont still remained ocasionaly in use.

    I dont think heather shields ever came in massive use in southern Balkans. Long triangular shield was replaced by Tarca and Bosnian/hussar shields in 15. century.
    Is it known why even westernized Serbians continued to use large almond shields? In Central Europe they were replaced by heaters shields as soon as great helmets and extra-long chainmail came into use.

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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Is it known why even westernized Serbians continued to use large almond shields? In Central Europe they were replaced by heaters shields as soon as great helmets and extra-long chainmail came into use.
    I think heater shield was used in Serbia as well as round shields in late 14th century. Triangular shields were not used that late in Serbia (maybe some poor quality infantry used them but I doubt) and almong shield was becoming outdated.
    Why so big deal about almond/kite shields ?
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Could you show such a monastry painting? They are my favourite type of source for Medieval stuff


    Is it known why even westernized Serbians continued to use large almond shields? In Central Europe they were replaced by heaters shields as soon as great helmets and extra-long chainmail came into use.
    Sure here is an example of the almond style shields in an early XVI century monastery painting



    And I know that monastery paintings can be anachronistic but we can see one of the other soldiers is carrying a large pavise.

    Also, simillar monastery paintings include gunpowder weapons which is clearly in line with the technology of the time



    You have to remember that the armies in eastern europe always had to catch up with the west in terms of techonology and some things just stayed around for a longer time. For example, the Wallachians and Moldavians still used bows and arrows in the XVIIth century long after all Western armies were using muskets. That being said bows and arrows and rudimentary axes and scythes were being used alongside modern artillery and muskets aswell.

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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Its not just technology but also matter of style. In Balkans kite shields were replaced by long triangular ones, and those in turn by tarca and hussar shields.

    Hungary adopted heather shields along rest of Catholic Europe but those were also later replaced by tarca and hussar shields which was not case say in France or Italy.

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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Sure here is an example of the almond style shields in an early XVI century monastery painting



    And I know that monastery paintings can be anachronistic but we can see one of the other soldiers is carrying a large pavise.
    Where is this baby from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Also, simillar monastery paintings include gunpowder weapons which is clearly in line with the technology of the time

    I would cut off one of my fingers for a late era Nubian mural with firearms :/

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    You have to remember that the armies in eastern europe always had to catch up with the west in terms of techonology and some things just stayed around for a longer time.
    Yeah, fair enough. I really love factions with archaic / outdated arms and armour, so I guess I will have my joy with playing Wallachia, the Romans and co. Think I will download Tsardoms later

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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Where is this baby from?
    I believe it is from the Popauti Monastery in Botosani, Moldova, Romania.

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    I would cut off one of my fingers for a late era Nubian mural with firearms :/
    Don't know much about Nubia but are there money monasteries with murals in Sudan? I would have thought that many of the Christian places of worship would have been destroyed with the Muslim conquest.

    There is a great monastery painting in Moldova showing the fall of constantinopole with cannons firing and all



    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Yeah, fair enough. I really love factions with archaic / outdated arms and armour, so I guess I will have my joy with playing Wallachia, the Romans and co. Think I will download Tsardoms later
    Well at this time there is some archaism when it comes to some of the arms and armour, mainly with Balkan factions still using leather and some lamellar armours. But there is a lot more archaism in XVII and XVIII century.

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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    I believe it is from the Popauti Monastery in Botosani, Moldova, Romania.
    Ah nice, so far north and so late and still so much Byzantine influence in their armour.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Don't know much about Nubia but are there money monasteries with murals in Sudan?
    Yes, there are still many to discover in the sand, especially in Old Dongola, where Polish archaeologists uncover new churches and murals like every year. However, as more south one moves as more humid the climate, and ergo less well preserved churches and their murals become. Also, many churches are endangered by the continous & dubious dam projects of the Sudanese goverment, of course within the Nubian territory.

    If you are interested here one of the most exciting known murals from Nubia (12th century):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    It shows some kind of feast, eventually dedicated to virgin Mary, and includes weird caps with veils, masks with cowry shells and stuff like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    I would have thought that many of the Christian places of worship would have been destroyed with the Muslim conquest.
    Ah no, most churches were not touched but just decayed and occasionally buried under the sand. Only a handful of churches were actually converted into a mosque, and even where they had been used as a mosque it occured that the Muslims dont even touched the murals but just covered them with seperate plaster. I heard tho that during the late 19th century the Mahdi and his successors ordered to destroy churches, but I am not sure how true that is. Fact is tho that the Sudanese used the bricks of the great churches from Soba to build Khartoum. A shame, would have loved to see murals from that far south.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    There is a great monastery painting in Moldova showing the fall of constantinopole with cannons firing and all
    Moldovian Cannon unit confirmed?

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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Ah nice, so far north and so late and still so much Byzantine influence in their armour.
    Byzantine and neo-byzantine painting flourished in Wallachia and Moldova after Constantinopole had long fallen. Churches built in the XVI and XVII centuries are all painted in byzantine art style.

    [QUOTE=LinusLinothorax;14960028]
    Yes, there are still many to discover in the sand, especially in Old Dongola, where Polish archaeologists uncover new churches and murals like every year. However, as more south one moves as more humid the climate, and ergo less well preserved churches and their murals become. Also, many churches are endangered by the continous & dubious dam projects of the Sudanese goverment, of course within the Nubian territory.

    It shows some kind of feast, eventually dedicated to virgin Mary, and includes weird caps with veils, masks with cowry shells and stuff like that.

    Ah no, most churches were not touched but just decayed and occasionally buried under the sand. Only a handful of churches were actually converted into a mosque, and even where they had been used as a mosque it occured that the Muslims dont even touched the murals but just covered them with seperate plaster. I heard tho that during the late 19th century the Mahdi and his successors ordered to destroy churches, but I am not sure how true that is. Fact is tho that the Sudanese used the bricks of the great churches from Soba to build Khartoum. A shame, would have loved to see murals from that far south.
    [/SPOILER]

    Interesting read. Didn't realise quite a lot of the Christian heritage was preserved in that area. Sad to hear it survived such a long period only to be destroyed in recent times.

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Moldovian Cannon unit confirmed?
    Oh cannons and artillery were quite common in the late XVth century so nothing special about that in the painting. Artillery had been adopted from the XIVth century.

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