Best of Napoleon's marshals

[Vivat Imperator]

By Good God! Bernadotte was a traitor beyond belief. Not only was he incapable of fulfilling orders, sometimes he deliberately sabotaged battle plans. Napoleon didn't have him executed for the simple reason that Bernadotte was married to Desiree, Napoleon's young love. Napoleon thought, by accepting Bernadotte's movement to the Kingdom of Sweden would neutralise a northern threat as well as remove and incompetent and somewhat corrupt marshal. This man had been conspiring with the Jacobites, Fouche and Talleyrand to oust Napoleon from power. The treachery of the man can be easily seen in his siding with the Russians in the retreating campaign of 1813.

Furthermore, Bernadotte (like Murat) constantly complained to Napoleon about not having enough prestige or power in his empire. As they were married to people close to Napoleon (Desiree: young lover; Caroline: Napoleon's sister), they would constantly get away with, what otherwise would have been considered, treachery.

[Von_Dobeln]

does anyone know why napoleon isnt the french national hero? cause he betrayed his country and started a series of wars same scale as the world wars! while i truly admire napoleons will and competence i hate the fact that he was the reason millions of people died.
now back to Bernadotte, he betrayed only napoleon not the french people whom he actually served, he was a man of honour and that earned him popularity amongst the swedish soldiers.
napoleon is a good role model for those who like to glorify war. he was simply a competent yet overambitious warmonger.

and as for the napoleons best marshal: WHY ISNT NEY #1? HE WAS DA MAN (hes stupid cavalry charge at the Waterloo was a true screw up though.)

[Prince of Darkness]

The best marshal is brain, not brawn.

[underworld965]

Napoleon even acknowledged that davout was best...

[Pro-opera Jungian]

does anyone know why napoleon isnt the french national hero? cause he betrayed his country and started a series of wars same scale as the world wars! while i truly admire napoleons will and competence i hate the fact that he was the reason millions of people died.
now back to Bernadotte, he betrayed only napoleon not the french people whom he actually served, he was a man of honour and that earned him popularity amongst the swedish soldiers.
napoleon is a good role model for those who like to glorify war. he was simply a competent yet overambitious warmonger.

and as for the napoleons best marshal: WHY ISNT NEY #1? HE WAS DA MAN (hes stupid cavalry charge at the Waterloo was a true screw up though.)

Napoleon was no different than any other imperialist leader of the time. Just as much as Americans eradicating the Native Americans, to the British colonization of Africa and India, etc, so to call him a brutal person is quite hypocritical of many of our own nation's faults. In fact, a point of note is that the primary reason nations declared war on Napoleon in the first place was because they were afraid the ideals of freedom he proclaimed would spread to their autocratic monarchies. Additionally, Napoleon was a champion of Human Rights, liberating the Jews from the ghettos in Paris and abolishing feudal property laws along with giving lesser class citizens the same rights as men of 'noble birth'. Napoleon was basically a French Julius Caesar, using imperialist means to benefit the people. Is it right? No, but there are definitely dictators with worse intentions and means for that matter than Napoleon.

Additionally, why isn't Napoleon considered a hero? Austerlitz is still celebrated in France and he is one of the most famous Frenchmen of all time. Also if Napoleon was a bad\evil leader, than A. Why did the majority of France openly welcome him in his return from Elba when they easily could've just arrested him instead and B. Why does Modern Europe use his Napoleonic Code as the foundation for all modern civil law in their nations?

Lastly, as for Ney, while he was a brave officer, he did a bit more than just one cavalry charge to ruin his reputation.

[exNowy]

now back to Bernadotte, he betrayed only napoleon not the french people whom he actually served, he was a man of honour and that earned him popularity amongst the swedish soldiers.

There is no doubt that Bernadotte was a traitor. He betrayed Napoleon as well as French.
He was disloyal many times and fought against French from 1813.

He did not help Davout's French Corps which fought with Prussian Army at Auerstedt 1807.
He allow to escape for so many soldiers from Spanish Corps La Romana in Denmark in 1808.
He did not make seriuos operations during war with Sweden in 1808/9
Look how poorly he performed at Wagram 1809.
He commanded coalition forced in North Army which defeated French and your fine marshal Ney in 1813.
Was not he present at Leipzig where his allied army fougth against French?

Then how you can call Bernadotte as a man of honour which actually served for French.
He was careerist which helped Swedes few times therefore they liked him.

and as for the napoleons best marshal: WHY ISNT NEY #1? HE WAS DA MAN (hes stupid cavalry charge at the Waterloo was a true screw up though.)

Brave man which many times performed poorly as commander can not be the best Napoleonic marshal.

Ney was competent commander under Napoleon's supervision, but when he must made decisions himself or coordinated his actions with other Marshals then he made mistakes many times.

Few examples.
In winter 1807 he went to far in East Prussia and it lead to useless blady battle at Eylau.
In Spain he poorly defended French supply and comunication lines which made some troubles.
During Russia Campaign 1812 he made many mistakes e.g.
- he poorly lead his troops and lost more soldiers during summer marches than during battles
- he failed with initial attack, when his Corps could be more agressive and captured Smolensk citadel
- his Corps advanced too vigorous at Valutina Gora, when he should wait for Junot's Westpalian Corps
- at Borodino his troops attacked few times Russian Great Redoubt which lead to horrible loses
- he lost almost all his men during winter retreat, however personally he was brave man at that time
In 1813 he failed with advance on Berlin and was defeated at Dennewitz. Then he can not made succesful acttions at Leipzig.
In 1814 he together with few other marshals pushed Napoleon to abdication.
In 1815 at Waterloo he failed with cavalry charge which he lead without needed support.

Now it could be clear why Nay can not be the number 1. There were few better Napoleon's Marshals.

[Maréchal Lannes]

Despite my avater, I vote Davout, the only undefeated general of the Napoleonic wars.

Lol, Wellington only fought directly against Napoleon at Waterloo and outmarted him and would have held the ridge until night without the Prussians,who admittedly were able to turn defence into attack.
In his early campaigns Napoleon was indeed a better general but certainly lost his touch later on. The French designer of the game I mentioned put Napoleon at 8, Wellington and Davout at 6 but this was for the whole period 1805-1815. Wellington was probably a better general than Napoleon by 1815 and quite capable of offensive battle,Assaye,Salamanca,Vitoria,battles of the Pyrenees,Toulouse and other smaller battles. He failed at the first siege of Burgos but captured the city in 2 days a bit later.Only one small defeat (in India and I doubt you'll find it) in all his career.

ROOOFFFLLLL

What a joke !!!
Jihada you didn't change...

Wellington was a good general like many at his time. Some coalition generals like Archduke Charles were even better than Wellington.
Anglo-Maratha war? Wow Wellington was really a genuis!!! The English are full of themselves because they defeated Indians... of course they never defeated by themselves a civilised nation so they take the glory where they can find it...
Battles of Salamanca, Vittoria, Toulouse, etc...? The French were always outnumbered by the Allied (sometimes heavily, like the battle of Vittoria: 60.000 French vs 105.000 Allied)
Same about Waterloo (70.000 French vs 120.000 Allied) and Welly was not the only commander. Where is the feat? My grandmother would have won these battles... so please don't make me laugh...

Because Wellington (WITH BLUCHER) defeated Napoleon in a single battle while the French were heavily outnumbered (and Napoleon didn't really command himself the battle he was sick all the day), some English full of themselves think Wellington was a better commander... what a joke...

If Wellington was better than Napoleon because of a single victory, so Ney was better than Wellington because NEY (the so called bad commander with his charge at Waterloo) DEFEATED SEVERAL TIMES WELLINGTON (the so called military genuis ROFL)
For exemple the battle of Redinha (Ney with 9.000 men kicked Wellington with 25.000 men):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Redinha
The battle of Pombal, or the battle of Quatre-Bras are another good exemples (Yes i know the British excuse "it was a draw")

So according to the British way of mind:
Wellington > Napoleon (because of Waterloo)
Ney > Wellington (because of Redinha, Pombal and Quatre-Bras)

Ney > Wellington > Napoleon.... GREAT !!!

Only one small defeat (in India and I doubt you'll find it) in all his career

Only with the 3 battles quoted above, where Welly has been defeated by Ney, we past the "only one small defeat"...
And Ney defeated Wellington by being outnumbered.
How a military genuis like Wellington can loose a battle against Ney with a larger army???

However Napoleon NEVER lost a battle with a larger army.
He was always heavily outnumbered when he has been defeated (battles of Aspern-Essling, Leipzig, La Rothière, Laon and Waterloo)

In his early campaigns Napoleon was indeed a better general but certainly lost his touch later on.

Jihada you are really funny.
Napoleon won some of his most brilliant battles in the campaigns of 1813-1814
Have you ever heard about these battles?

Battle of Lützen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...zen_%281813%29
Battle of Dresden (playable in the game):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dresden
Battle of Hanau
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hanau
Battle of Montmirail
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Montmirail
Battle of Chateau-Thierry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...rry_%281814%29
Battle of Vauchamps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vauchamps
Battle of Craonne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Craonne
Battle of Reims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Reims_%281814%29
Battle of Arcis-sur-Aube
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arcis-sur-Aube
Battle of Ligny (playable in the game)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ligny

Napoleon won all these battle by being outnumbered by the coalition (sometimes 1 French vs 3 Allied).
Napoleon sometimes litteraly crushed the coalised armies (the battle of Vauchamps is the perfect exemple).
So how can you say that Napoleon "lost his touch" later one?

Not like Wellington winning the majority of his battles with larger coalised armies (thanks Portugal, Spain and Prussia).
That's funny, Wellington was unable to do something in Spain before 1812. He only managed to do something in 1813-1814 because the majority of the French army was trying to hold the Prussian, Austrian, Russian, Swedish, German armies in the eastern front... letting only inferior troops in Spain (and these inferior troops were enough to fight Spain-Britain-Portugal, because Russia-Austria-Prussia finally conquered Paris while Welly at the same time only managed to cross the Pyrenees...)
In fact the Peninsula war has not been won by Spain-Britain-Portugal, but ended de facto with the Prussian-Austrian-Russian victory in 1814... Wellington accomplished nothing compared to some Austrians, Russians or Prussians commanders (Charles, Blücher...)

I don't say Wellington was a bad general. Welly was a pretty good commander. But that's really boring to always have to humble the pride of some English full of themselves really believing that Wellington was undefeated (LOL) and that he was a military genuis who "kicked" Napoleon...

[JaM]

yep, Wellington was pretty much just average General,nowhere near Napoleon or Davout. French had much more talented commanders at their disposal.

[Taran.]

I must say Ney. He might not have been the best commander, but he definitely was the bravest!
And that counts a lot for me.

[exNowy]

I must say Ney. He might not have been the best commander, but he definitely was the bravest!
And that counts a lot for me.

This pull is about the best of Napoleon's marshals not the bravest.

I even doubt that Ney was the bravest. There were few other brave Napoleon's marshals as like Murat, Lannes, and Poniatowski. They achieved many successful operations too.

Lannes was good vanguard and brave infantry commander. Murat was brave cavalry commander. Poniatowski and his Polish troops won entire campaign against Austrians in Poland in 1809, however Polish were heavily outnumbered in the beginning. Poniatowski fought quite well at Smolensk and Borodino. He brave commanded Polish infantry and reserve cavalry Corps at Leipzig.

Ney was good only as Corps commander, but needs almost permanent control. He lacked in strategic skills which needs few Coprs coordination or make right decisions and actions in right time. Sometime he was too hurry as like at Jena or Valutina Gora and sometime was no hurry as like at Smolensk. Some his action were controversial or unsuccessful as like at Eylau, Borodino and Waterloo.

He can made fine rearguard actions, even won some smaller battles, but had some problems when he must made more complex decisions or operations. He also poorly lead his man during long marches.

Personally he was brave man, but he was not the best Napoleon's marshal.

The best Napoleon's marshal was no duobt Davout.
He had very good commanding skills, was always loyal to Napoleon.
He win decisive battle as like Auerstedt, fought very well in many battles and was almost never defeated on the battlefield. He was only the one French marshal which achiaved that glory.

[exNowy]

Isn't funny that Ney got here so many votes?

I think that even Napoleon thought that Ney was not his the best Marshal.

He few times ordered Ney to servise under other Marshals as like Murat or Massena.

Ney serviced under Massena in 1810-1811 in Penninsula Campaign. It could mean that Napoleon thougth that Ney was not the best his Marshal. Maybe he was even worse commander than Massena. This last commanded French army which invaded Portugal, while Ney commanded here smaller troops.

Maybe therefore he was hateful to Massena, Oudinot, Soult and they hatred him too.

Additional Ney was quarrelsome, hot brained and sometime even disloyal.

All these bad things did not help him to be the best Marshal.

Napoleon had few better Marshals.

As someone said the most achievemets had: Davout, Murat and Berthier.

Davout was the best field commander, however was too ruthlessly.
Murat was brave cavalry commander, however he did not care too much about this cavalry and at last he betraied Napoleon.
Berthier was very good chief of staff, however himself poorly lead field army and he together with Ney, Oudinot and Macdonald push Napoleon to abtication in 1814.

Massena, Lannes, Guvion St. Cyr, Suchet, Soult, Macdonald were competent commanders which can take command under army on secondary theaters of war and they had here some achievements.
I could add to this group also Prince Poniatowski. However he was only few days French Marshal, but he brave commanded Polish army many times in 1809, 1812, 1813.

Competent Corps commanders were Victor, Bernadotte, Bessiers, Ney, Mortier, Marmont, Oudinot, Lefebvre and Augereau. All they realised quite good Napoleon's orders and when they were supervised and controled by Emperor they can fought quite well. However all they had theirs bad days or worse campaigns, when they had some troubles. Worse that few of them was even traitors as like Bernadotte, Marmont.

Napoleon also had Marshals which even under his eye realised his orders poorly. There were Brune, Moncey and Grouchy. This last one was so indecision or clumsy that it somehow leaded to Napoloen's defeat at Waterloo.

Few titular Marshals did not commanded even Coprs at that time. There were Kellermann, Serurier and Perignon.

This way I could say that Ney was not the best Napoloen's Marshal. Ney was only third tier Marshal.

[Eet Mike]

For me its Marechal Davout.

Partialy for fact he was most able field commander, but mostly because hes character. He was one of those who preferred taking care of his family rather than noble actions.He was strict, but friendly.Hes military skills could match with Napoleons, but he was not in need to do more than it was awaited from him. Thats kind of people i admire.

[JaM]

For me its Marechal Davout.

Partialy for fact he was most able field commander, but mostly because hes character. He was one of those who preferred taking care of his family rather than noble actions.He was strict, but friendly.Hes military skills could match with Napoleons, but he was not in need to do more than it was awaited from him. Thats kind of people i admire.

yes, he was a true soldier

[Holman]

seem like Louis-Nicolas Davout will won the poll
beside ney, Ney is not as good like many people used to think

here one of the quote

Michel Ney: "Wellington's on the run! I caught him at Quatre Bras! He's retreating!"
Napoleon Bonaparte: "If Wellington's retreating, what are you doing here? "
Michel Ney: "But, Sire..."
Napoleon Bonaparte: "If Wellington's retreating, what are you doing here? Why didn't you follow him? Why didn't you pursue?"
Michel Ney: [Raises voice] "where are the reinforcements you promised me?"
Napoleon Bonaparte: [shouting] "Don't you dare criticize me! Don't you dare! Don't you see if Wellington's free to choose his ground then everything I've won in this campaign you've lost!"

*one of the reason france lost at waterloo

[underworld965]

why does ney have so many votes? I personally think kellerman was better with the cav charges , but aside from that ney was brave but not the best general...