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Thread: Civitates System, what do you think?

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    Default Civitates System, what do you think?

    Voters Bill - Proposal that specifically goes against the Spirit of Curial Democracy

    Damn right it does! But now that I have your attention and the anxiety of a Strategos posting such a statement as the heading of his bill has gradually turned into dread, probably indicating some plot to steal power by use of numerous political tricks such as bribery and abuse of mod powers, we can move on. Cant we? Maybe there is a paradox seeing as the intent of this bill is to prevent similar scenarios to the one above. Not that Hex would ever do such a thing, but you thinking we would does cause a few giggles. Don’t worry your safe! Probably

    Anyway, some time ago Mimirswell and I had a debate about why supporters should be listed, whether voters should be able to state what they voted and some such related debates. Mimirswell won the proposal because I could not argue against the fact that my idealist counter-proposal was unworkable in an institution where most probably voted blindly. But this is not that system, no this is an even more mature and elitist group that are elected for their contribution to the community. What is this group afraid of? There is no corruption here? No blind voting? This is the new Curia! I hope. Thus I think that people that proved their interest to the betterment of the community should not only be trusted to see the vote before, not only be trusted to state what they voted, but that the complete opposite should be established thus defeating the Achilles heal of democracy.

    This is the basis of my Proposal –

    - I trust the new patricians to be smart enough to not be influenced by anything but a valid argument regardless of the poster.

    - I trust that the Patricians all take their voting duty seriously and realise the impact of some votes on the community

    - I trust that no Patrician is scared to reveal what he voted for, or why because corruption does not exist in this system.

    - I trust that the Patricians have the ability to not only perform rights similar to those performed in democracy but surpass it, a renaissance of democracy maybe?

    - I trust that a patrician that does not have time to vote and read the argument to know that he should not vote on an issue that he does not know about thus he should use his right to abstain.

    Now, yes I know the arguments that will be presented and I might as well state them now, but please after I do so do not be disheartened by the magnitude of their supposed validity, they might indeed show that the current system is simpler and faster, but if the Curia is to prosper as an institution it must further establish trust and but the minds at rest that every decision made by the curia will Only be based on arguments. In the short term there might not be any significant advantages, but, coupled with a bill to be posted by a members soon, its like Algebra, pointless when starting it, tells you nothing about Bras and is a pain – but – The doors it opens for an individual regarding their future means it is well worth it.

    Onto the Arguments –

    - A voter should have their right to privacy.

    Yes, I agree with this, and when this bill will be voted on I want each voter to ask themselves these questions – What do I have to fear from my vote being public? and is it worth voluntarily loosing this right for the possible advantages of a totally open and honest system where corruption is not only nonexistent but also the suspicion of it will be dispelled once and for all, a true new Age!

    - What disadvantages are there with a system of private voting that is common in all democratic votes?

    I will answer this with one practical example –

    Last edited by Belisarius; October 07, 2006 at 06:42 PM.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

  2. #2
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    I like it, except for one thing: I have no idea when I becvae one accurately, so I have no idea when to apply for patricianhood. That is being remedied now for new civs, though, which is good.

    Actually one thing is that the patron has no control over or responsibility for their clients, really, which is a little odd; surely there should be some mutual dependency, given how much the client needs the patron, the patron maybe can exert control or discipline?

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeakus Maximus
    I like it, except for one thing: I have no idea when I becvae one accurately, so I have no idea when to apply for patricianhood. That is being remedied now for new civs, though, which is good.

    Actually one thing is that the patron has no control over or responsibility for their clients, really, which is a little odd; surely there should be some mutual dependency, given how much the client needs the patron, the patron maybe can exert control or discipline?

    You have been a civitates two months, or almost 2 months I think. Ask staff they have a written record.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

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    MareNostrum's Avatar Wanted: Dead or Alive
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    at 03-07-2005
    Squeakus Maximus entered our orbit..

    Well usually.. you had to PM profler..and ask for a promotion to the rank Patrician. I dont know the current procedure though...

    EDIT:

    ah..the Holy Syntagma..

    Patricians
    Any Civitate that remains in good standing with no official warnings (successful appeals to the Trinunal are not considered warnings) after three months active tenure can be be elevated to the level of Patrician by sending a PM to a Consul asking for this change. The Hexagon Council win then review the application and vote on the change to status. Patricians are marked as 'TWC Patricians'
    hmm the hexagon is about to vanish right?..


    Actually one thing is that the patron has no control over or responsibility for their clients, really, which is a little odd; surely there should be some mutual dependency, given how much the client needs the patron, the patron maybe can exert control or discipline?
    You can get demoted...

    If a Patrician fails to make a worthwhile patronage three times, he can be demoted to basic Civitate status if the Consuls are in agreement.
    And thats pretty much the only "rule" ..
    The relation between a patron and his client, must remain as simple as possible. To exert control and or discipline... Let that be something private, if necessary.... instead of based on "rules".

    In what kind of occasion would you like to prefer to exert control and discipline over your client? I am just interested..
    Last edited by MareNostrum; September 18, 2005 at 12:30 PM.

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Thank you, both of you. 2 weeks and I can patronise people....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeakus Maximus
    Thank you, both of you. 2 weeks and I can patronise people....
    According to that date, you already can, you just need to PM Sulla and get promoted i guess. Or am i horribly mistaken in thinking you only need 2 months?

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    Søren's Avatar ܁
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    You are horribly mistaken

    You need three months.

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Now this is why that stuff needs to be more obvious. Let's see: a set date for each civ, added to their profile somewhere, might work?

    Also I see no-one looked at my other idea...

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    Obi Wan Asterix's Avatar IN MEDIO STAT VIRTUS
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    The civitates should have a proper assembly, but for this we need more active civitates. Something called a Senate and with slightly superior accessibility and organisation
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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    What's wrong with the Curia and Symposium? We have political discussions (forum politics) in the Curia, and everything in the Symp...

  11. #11
    Obi Wan Asterix's Avatar IN MEDIO STAT VIRTUS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeakus Maximus
    What's wrong with the Curia and Symposium? We have political discussions (forum politics) in the Curia, and everything in the Symp...
    Nothing is wrong just a little reorganisation after the reform process needed
    All are welcome to relax at Asterix's Campagnian Villa with its Vineyard and Scotchbarrel
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    Progeny of the retired Great Acutulus (If you know who he is you have been at TWC too long) and wooer of fine wombs to spawn 21 curial whining snotslingers and be an absentee daddy to them

    Longest Serving Staff Member of TWC under 3 Imperators** 1st Speaker of the House ** Original RTR Team Member (until 3.2) ** Knight of Saint John ** RNJ, Successors, & Punic Total War Team Member

    TROM 3 Team - Founder of Ken no Jikan **** Back with a modding vengeance! Yes I will again promise to take on the work of 5 mods and dissapear!

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    I like the civitate system a lot...

    All this talk of the different 'houses' or 'clans' or whatever, has got me thinking though. It would be intensely cool if people could form different political parties out of them and somehow implement it in elections. For example, there is a quaestor election and a "party" can like pick a candidate from their ranks and then support them. I know it would be more trouble than it's worth, but i still think it's a promising idea. I just think it would make forum politics a lot more fun and interesting. some non-civ proposed something a bit similar i think a while ago...

    Anyways, I know it wont happen, and Sulla will probably want to kill me for even posting this ( :laughing: ) but i still think its a nice idea.

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    I hope Sulla doesn't kill you.... we've just been through the rigmarole and posturing of an eection, I really don't want to have to go through it again!

    Anyway, I think it is a wonderful idea, except for one point; what happens if an intrafamilial war broke out, rather than interfamilial?

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    It wouldn't work Atheist Peace, as that would require canvassing...

    There's also a bunch of other factors at work here, primarily the, biggest family wins problem.
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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    unless family alliances are brought into play

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    Yes, that was one of the things I was thinking of but I didnt go into any specific things...I was just bringing up the idea, of course the details would have to be ironed out.

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    Søren's Avatar ܁
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    Attractive from the point of view of a Manji family member. :laughing:

    However, what about persons from clans, no less dignified, but considerably smaller, such as the Nihil clan ?
    Last edited by Søren; September 18, 2005 at 02:17 PM.

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    A Nihilian suggested. A WBK-ian picked a few holes in it. And a Manjian pondered it. Hehe.

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    We all already had a discussion regarding political parties, and the vast majority of people (including the senior staff) thought it was an extremely bad idea:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=29179

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    Yes, I know, this is different though.


    Anyways, read my original post, I said it was probably more trouble than it's worth.

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