Question about the Byzantines and artillery

[Tokugawa]

Hey everybody, first campaign with RR and I'm eating it up but I'm curious, do the Byzantines get any gunpowder units? I have been making gunsmiths and cannon makers like crazy, but I still can't recruit any gunpowder units and its almost 1300. Am I missing something? I r confused, appreciate any feedback that comes, thanks yall

[meese]

Well the Byzantines never did get very technologically advanced but they do seem to have a few gunpowder units here and there..

The late musketeers, grand bombard, cannon and latin handgunners. If you go up north the cossak musketeers are also locals via AoR. Or at least they were when I went up to the caucasus with the turks.

[WastedTrojan]

Thats the major Byzantine weakness. They are married to the old ways and don't really change as technology does. I believe that Byzantines can make Bombard cannons, but nothing else that uses gunpowder.

[SnjoNegri]

They were destroyed before gunpowder made its real entrance into warfare. And while they were around, could hardly afford the technology.

They were marred by an early form of Oligarch Capitalism, all their revenue went into private pockets of people who A: didnt know much about war and B: were too greedy to spend on defense. In the end the Oligarchs who controlled the empires money waited for the Turks to attack so they could raid the treasury and make a quick escape.

Being Married to the old ways wasnt the problem. If they continued their old ways and had not switched their economy into a more western one, they would probably have survived at least 100 years longer, if not until modern times.

Their demise was a long and gradual buildup, and there is lots of speculation behind it. A lot of it unwarranted.

[Deadly Rabbit]

Given that the Roman Empire ceased to effectively exist as a superpower in 1204, and had been on struggle street since Manzikert in 1071, I think that is a spurious comment. They were past their peak at the beginning of this mod, and by the beginning of the late era campaign were floating face down in the water with little hope of revival. It's not that they were "married to the old ways". It's that the system of government, and hence their ability to develop and adopt new technology, was dealt a terrible blow by the fourth crusade, Venetian and Genoese predation and finally the rise of the Ottoman turks. If Manouel Comnenus had left a capable successor I think there's a distinct possibility that european history would be drastically different.

[SnjoNegri]

Given that the Roman Empire ceased to effectively exist as a superpower in 1204, and had been on struggle street since Manzikert in 1071, I think that is a spurious comment. They were past their peak at the beginning of this mod, and by the beginning of the late era campaign were floating face down in the water with little hope of revival. It's not that they were "married to the old ways". It's that the system of government, and hence their ability to develop and adopt new technology, was dealt a terrible blow by the fourth crusade, Venetian and Genoese predation and finally the rise of the Ottoman turks. If Manouel Comnenus had left a capable successor I think there's a distinct possibility that european history would be drastically different.

Manzikert was a big turning point, and might have eliminated them being the strongest world power, but centuries after that they were still a dominant force.

The old ways kept them very stable economically, and it was only after the revamping of their economical system into a more western oligarchy they began seriously declining.

Money was all they really had. Their position wasnt a very good defensible one. Without money they couldnt afford the armies to properly defend themselves.

When the 4th crusade hit, Constantinople was 1/6 the size it used to be.
The infamous purging of italian merchants years before the attack was directly linked to the western corruption of their economic system. It was that corruption that destroyed the empire.

[Gromovnik]

Anyway, they should have access to the better artillery in game. If you can make them a dominant world power again, it's logical to presume they would use the best equipment once again.

[DeliCiousTZM]

We cant do more then speculate very little is known about byzan in comparasion to how big it were and how long it lasted. (Example the west roman empire had alot of documented history in comparason.)

One thing is sure byzan is growing in my campaign

[Manuel I Komnenos]

The Byzantine Empire was the most technologically, politically and culturally advanced nation of Europe until 1071.. Its army utilized the best and most advanced weapons, armor, and ships until its decline(1180-1453) so to say that the Byzantines weren't technologically advanced is wrong. Even between 1080 and 1180 during the rule of the 3 good Emperors of the Komnenian dynasty the army which had been restored to its former glory by Alexius I Komnenos managed to control the crusaders of the 1st crusader, also inflicting a defeat against the Principality of Antioch in addition to successfully defeating huge armies of Cumans, Pechenegs and Hungarians and successfully defending for over 100 years against the Turks and the Normans of Sicily. But the Byzantine ''Empire'' was a city state, not an Empire anymore, when gunpowder started being used. Even though there is some information that the Hungarian who made the cannons for Ottomans in 1453 had offered his services to the Byzantine Emperor but he had declined for lack of money to pay him.

[nhartwell]

Tokugawa,

In response to your question, i believe its because the gunpowder units available to the Byzantines (and all nations i suppose) will not be come available until later. You can build gunsmiths, cannon foundries and so on as soon as the gunpowder 'event' happens but will have to wait until later years and new events (similar to the announcements you get when armour techniques have improved, unlocking more advanced armourers and upgrades) before you can get bombards and so on. Two examples of the passage of time dictating what you can recruit are, and ive not played as the Byzantines yet so they will be different for you but im using England in this case, i couldnt recruit longdowmen until approximatley 1200 despite having the archery ranges that i now need to recruit them a long time ago. Another, and to do with the gunpowder units, would be the fact its around 1260 in my game and i can build gunsmiths but can only recruit ribaults (im not sure the byzantines can) and only then at a Master Gunsmiths. Im not sure on the exact date, but im sure by 1400 (and 1500 and so on) if you look at your recruitment pools you'll have more options for artillery even if you didnt actually build any new buildings. The game essentially adds new units automatically for recrutiment, and takes some away, depending on the year in game to represent changes in warfare.

[zchmrkenhoff]

I dislike this "married to the old ways" propaganda everybody seems obsessed with. While the Western Roman Empire was plunged into an age where the barbarians developed and slowly became civilized, the Eastern Roman Empire preserved Western Civilization. Is Western Civlization an "old way" to you? If so, you are likely a liberal ... but it was important that the Romans preserved Western Civilization. The Renaissance came about because of the fleeing Roman scholars coming to Italy and reintroducing traditional greek literature and thought to the Latins + Western Europeans, in addition they taught the Greek language to people. If you got rid of the Eastern Roman Empire, the """"""""""technically advanced""""""" Western Europeans would have been over-run by Islamic invaders and Western Civilization would have been destroyed. It's because the Eastern Romans were a buffer and existed while the Roman Catholics turned their back on them that Western Civilization continues to exist. We would really live in a different world if the Eastern Roman Empire was never cruelly sacked by the Venetians and put to rest by the Turks... they would likely still be the heart of civilization and Western Europe would still be inferior.

[gdo0d6]

I dislike this "married to the old ways" propaganda everybody seems obsessed with. While the Western Roman Empire was plunged into an age where the barbarians developed and slowly became civilized, the Eastern Roman Empire preserved Western Civilization. Is Western Civlization an "old way" to you? If so, you are likely a liberal ... but it was important that the Romans preserved Western Civilization. The Renaissance came about because of the fleeing Roman scholars coming to Italy and reintroducing traditional greek literature and thought to the Latins + Western Europeans, in addition they taught the Greek language to people. If you got rid of the Eastern Roman Empire, the """"""""""technically advanced""""""" Western Europeans would have been over-run by Islamic invaders and Western Civilization would have been destroyed. It's because the Eastern Romans were a buffer and existed while the Roman Catholics turned their back on them that Western Civilization continues to exist. We would really live in a different world if the Eastern Roman Empire was never cruelly sacked by the Venetians and put to rest by the Turks... they would likely still be the heart of civilization and Western Europe would still be inferior.

Well, I dislike this protectors of "Western Civilization" propaganda everyone seems obsessed with. While the Eastern Roman Empire preserved many of the old Roman traditions, much of it had already percolated to the Middle East. Had Constantinople fallen earlier, the knowledge was already present in large Middle Eastern cities such as Cairo and Cordoba. Before the rise of the Western kingdoms during the medieval age, these Islamic cities that acquired this "Western" knowledge were the ones that were known to have the world-class hospitals, libraries, and education centers equal to and even surpassing Constantinople. In fact, many Greek scholars actually obtained Arabic books and translated them into Greek and preserved this knowledge as vaunted "Western" knowledge.

[Gromovnik]

I dislike this "married to the old ways" propaganda everybody seems obsessed with. While the Western Roman Empire was plunged into an age where the barbarians developed and slowly became civilized, the Eastern Roman Empire preserved Western Civilization. Is Western Civlization an "old way" to you? If so, you are likely a liberal ... but it was important that the Romans preserved Western Civilization. The Renaissance came about because of the fleeing Roman scholars coming to Italy and reintroducing traditional greek literature and thought to the Latins + Western Europeans, in addition they taught the Greek language to people. If you got rid of the Eastern Roman Empire, the """"""""""technically advanced""""""" Western Europeans would have been over-run by Islamic invaders and Western Civilization would have been destroyed. It's because the Eastern Romans were a buffer and existed while the Roman Catholics turned their back on them that Western Civilization continues to exist. We would really live in a different world if the Eastern Roman Empire was never cruelly sacked by the Venetians and put to rest by the Turks... they would likely still be the heart of civilization and Western Europe would still be inferior.

+rep