Ask Your Questions Here!

[sanderman2]

ima going to try rohan campaign

[Lucarius]

@Aradan

You are to fast for me
thanks for finding them.

Q:

sorry for asking this but i'm getting confused by other people
I already know that the Elves and Dwarfes are gonna be playable.
but is it gonna be a Patch for TNS 2.6 (because the things seem a little bit big to be a patch)?

[Thangaror]

Aradan, I wonder if you'll rename the Elvish bowmen. I mean, why did you chose peng for bow? My Sindarin is really not that good, but afaik the word for the weapon "bow" is Cû. Like in Cûthalion or Laer Cû Beleg.
Also I think the differentiation betwen "bowmen" and "longbowmen" is not a good choice. I suggest to rename them in say "Bowmen" and "Armoured Bowmen" or something the like.

[Aradan]

sorry for asking this but i'm getting confused by other people
I already know that the Elves and Dwarfes are gonna be playable.
but is it gonna be a Patch for TNS 2.6 (because the things seem a little bit big to be a patch)?

lol no, that would be one hell of a patch. DoM will be a complete full release, FATW's 3.0 version.

Aradan, I wonder if you'll rename the Elvish bowmen. I mean, why did you chose peng for bow? My Sindarin is really not that good, but afaik the word for the weapon "bow" is Cû. Like in Cûthalion or Laer Cû Beleg.
Also I think the differentiation betwen "bowmen" and "longbowmen" is not a good choice. I suggest to rename them in say "Bowmen" and "Armoured Bowmen" or something the like.

We have both, Cu and Peng, actually (for different units).

Why is Bows and Loongbows a bad distinction?

[sanderman2]

I don't know why it should be not good.

But is there anybody who plays FATW online ?????

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

What's your timezone and xfire?

[Themea]

lol no, that would be one hell of a patch. DoM will be a complete full release, FATW's 3.0 version.


We have both, Cu and Peng, actually (for different units).

Why is Bows and Loongbows a bad distinction?

Well that would imply that there are two types of bows, the short and long variants. Of course that is true so perhaps not? Anyway from what I remember of the descriptions in the book did not the elves use recurve bows? Of course I shall attempt to find the appropriate passage.

[sanderman2]

What's your timezone and xfire?

my timezone euuhhm i live in holland so its now when i type this 12:22 in midday.
i dont remember my x fire

but i have a question about wars of men whats the differents with The new shadow and The new shadow wars of men.

[Thangaror]

Why is Bows and Loongbows a bad distinction?

Well, why should anyone use a small bow, if they could use really powerful ones?

[Aradan]

The model is that of a unit with a regular bow. Unless e change the model, then we need a distinction between a regular-sized bow and a longbow.

[CountMRVHS]

Part of it too is a necessary concession to gameplay - if the only bows were the awesomest bows, then that would be a pretty small tech tree. Smaller bows allow them to model a distinction between good archers and amazing archers.

In game-world terms, you might say that some archers just aren't suited to the longbow for some reason (it takes longer training, a stronger/taller wielder), or that longbows aren't needed in some situations (e.g. in a dense forest, where shorter distances would tend to be the norm).

[Themea]

Well, why should anyone use a small bow, if they could use really powerful ones?

The short bow has the advantage of maneuverability. They were very common for riders on horseback, and indeed Aragon uses a short bow in the books. The longbow is designed for power and is large an unwieldy. A person equipped with such a bow would not be able move with any speed, or engage in melee without ditching the bow. The recurve bow was designed to compensate for this by granting mobility and power. It is a medium sized bow that i believe the evles used, but don't quote me on that. The composite bow is the most powerful archaic bow, but its weakness is that it cannot be used effectively in any form of a damp climate.

Part of it too is a necessary concession to gameplay - if the only bows were the awesomest bows, then that would be a pretty small tech tree. Smaller bows allow them to model a distinction between good archers and amazing archers.

In game-world terms, you might say that some archers just aren't suited to the longbow for some reason (it takes longer training, a stronger/taller wielder), or that longbows aren't needed in some situations (e.g. in a dense forest, where shorter distances would tend to be the norm).

This. Longbows would only be effective in a forest if one were on top of the tree. Also, dwarves would not be able to use a longbow as it is taller than your average dwarf.

[Thangaror]

Part of it too is a necessary concession to gameplay - if the only bows were the awesomest bows, then that would be a pretty small tech tree. Smaller bows allow them to model a distinction between good archers and amazing archers.

In game-world terms, you might say that some archers just aren't suited to the longbow for some reason (it takes longer training, a stronger/taller wielder), or that longbows aren't needed in some situations (e.g. in a dense forest, where shorter distances would tend to be the norm).

Nay, it's ok that men do have short bows. There are, no matter if they're long or short, war bows and hunting bows.
And drawing a real war bow, with say 150 lbs draw weight, needs a lot of training and even leads to deformation of the shoulders. But this counts for men only.
A crippled elf? Oh, c'mon! (Ok, there was Salgant the Fat. And Gwindor, but he was crippled by torture and still fought at Tumhalad!).

My idea though is that all Elves use longbows, except if there are some lore issues (Mirkwood archers e.g.). To make one unit more powerful, give them better armour and melee capability.
Regarding what Themea said, archers who are capable of melee should actually be less powerful in ranged combat for their bows have to be more compact.

The short bow has the advantage of maneuverability. They were very common for riders on horseback

I think you're mixing up short bows and composite bows. A short bow in this case is but a small selfbow, and thus it's construction differs completely from a composite and they cannot be compared. Whilst the composites are really powerful, a short self bow of about 1.2m is a joke (which leaves the open question how the Rohirrim bows were constructed).

and indeed Aragon uses a short bow in the books.

Ok, what I meant is: Why should someone, who is strong enough and all, wield a pretty weak short bow in battle (that means on a open field or during a siege) which is unable to penetrate even light armour?
Of course there were short bows, mainly used for hunting, or "short" bows which were short because of the people who used them were short. There also were soldiers who were unable to fight in melee and unable to wield a powerful bow: they wielded less powerful ones. Of course. But this all doesn't count for the Elves.

The longbow is designed for power and is large an unwieldy. A person equipped with such a bow would not be able move with any speed, or engage in melee without ditching the bow. The recurve bow was designed to compensate for this by granting mobility and power. It is a medium sized bow that i believe the evles used, but don't quote me on that. The composite bow is the most powerful archaic bow, but its weakness is that it cannot be used effectively in any form of a damp climate.

It all depends on the terrain. That is why Thranduil's people used shorter bows than the Galadhrim. Mirkwood was way denser than the mellyrn woods.
Tolkien never stated anything about the design of the bows, except that Elves and men used longbows and Orcs short bows, with the exception of Saruman's Uruk-hai. Notable are also the númenórean bows made of hollow steel.

Anyway, though the Greenelves of Mirkwood used shorter bows than their kinsmen, I think that longbows where the weapon of choice amongst the Elves.
Even Beleg, who also lived in the woods, used a longbow.

[Themea]

Nay, it's ok that men do have short bows. There are, no matter if they're long or short, war bows and hunting bows.
And drawing a real war bow, with say 150 lbs draw weight, needs a lot of training and even leads to deformation of the shoulders. But this counts for men only.
A crippled elf? Oh, c'mon! (Ok, there was Salgant the Fat. And Gwindor, but he was crippled by torture and still fought at Tumhalad!).

My idea though is that all Elves use longbows, except if there are some lore issues (Mirkwood archers e.g.). To make one unit more powerful, give them better armour and melee capability.
Regarding what Themea said, archers who are capable of melee should actually be less powerful in ranged combat for their bows have to be more compact.


I think you're mixing up short bows and composite bows. A short bow in this case is but a small selfbow, and thus it's construction differs completely from a composite and they cannot be compared. Whilst the composites are really powerful, a short self bow of about 1.2m is a joke (which leaves the open question how the Rohirrim bows were constructed).

It isn't always the size of the bow that makes the difference. The draw strength of the bow depends on the elasticity of the material used to make the bow. The reason the short bow is generally thought of as weak is that when made with a pliable wood, such as pine then the bow is weak. However using yew, or ironwood, would give the bow a greater resilience and therefore a greater draw strength. Also it is not possible for the Rhohirrim to have used composite bows unless they had discovered the secret of waterproof glue. Judging by the general level of tech I would say that they had not. I could be wrong.

Ok, what I meant is: Why should someone, who is strong enough and all, wield a pretty weak short bow in battle (that means on a open field or during a siege) which is unable to penetrate even light armour?
Of course there were short bows, mainly used for hunting, or "short" bows which were short because of the people who used them were short. There also were soldiers who were unable to fight in melee and unable to wield a powerful bow: they wielded less powerful ones. Of course. But this all doesn't count for the Elves.

True, in a prolonged battle then yes one would want to use the longbow.

It all depends on the terrain. That is why Thranduil's people used shorter bows than the Galadhrim. Mirkwood was way denser than the mellyrn woods.
Tolkien never stated anything about the design of the bows, except that Elves and men used longbows and Orcs short bows, with the exception of Saruman's Uruk-hai. Notable are also the númenórean bows made of hollow steel.

Now that is interesting as the hollow steel would give the bow a greater draw strength than either yew or ironwood. The down side is that woudl be very expensive and time consuming to make.

Anyway, though the Greenelves of Mirkwood used shorter bows than their kinsmen, I think that longbows where the weapon of choice amongst the Elves.
Even Beleg, who also lived in the woods, used a longbow.

If the books state it, then I am wrong. The recurve idea was a concession of logic.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

That is why Thranduil's people used shorter bows than the Galadhrim.

The galdhrim bows looked like the composite infantry bows, used by the perisans, in the movies.

If it is so, they would be more powerful than the longbows.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

in the movies.

And that stops your whole argument
This is FATW, so I assume we're talking about the actual lore, and not Peter Jackson's version?

[jackx]

But you're still talking about lore - and introducing realism into areas not covered in detail (such as weapon effectiveness) might just unhinge the intended balancing of the lore.

It doesn't have to be as jarring as a handfull of early medieval cavalry defeating massive plate-armoured pike-blocks with the aid of a single flashlight to break immersion/suspension of disbelief, and immersion/atmosphere is one of the strongpoints of FATW.

[Beorn]

Bear in mind that in the Books, such charge doesn't exist

[Themea]

I suppose we can't rag on him too badly for referencing the movies. After all the designs are just a little artistic license and the same thing is being done here. Since the books were written without pictures and Tolkien isn't the best descriptive writer out there, see Nathaniel Hawthorne, some license must be taken.

[Aradan]

Nobody said there are elven shortbows. There are bows and longbows, with bows being not short, but simply shorter than longbows.