Thread: Ask Your Questions Here!

  1. #2741

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambat View Post
    It seems like a good fix for these issues might be as follows:

    - Set different victory conditions for the factions under AI control than they would have under human control; maybe set objectives at the extreme of each point of the compass . In the case of unbreakable alliances, make sure the AI's objectives are not any of the territories initially held by the human faction.
    It's not possible to have separate VCs for the player and the AI.

    - If Harad is to have a territory west of Gondor, give that territory a special Men of Darkness cultural bonus, or a governor with sufficient attributes to ensure the settlement does not revolt. The Governor could have zero movement points to ensure he does not leave the city, allowing it to revolt.
    Harad won't have any such settlements, so that's not necessary. But if the need arises, we are much better equipped now compared to TNS to help the AI do what it needs to do. Obviously we can't work miracles, but we can give the AI a gentle push in the right direction...

    A further example of poor AI performance, which might be considered in the next mod, is that the AI does not seem to know what to do with spies and assassins deep in enemy lines. The spies and such Adunabar has in Gondor at the beginning of the RK campaign seem to do no more than provide an irrelevant cult of shadow cultural bonus.
    AI agents seem much more potent in DoM. Starting as RK and with Adunabar having 3-4 assassins in my lands, I usually get a couple of 'building damaged' notifications every turn for the first few turns (I rarely need to test more than that at this stage), mainly targeting my markets and military development.

  2. #2742

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aradan View Post
    AI agents seem much more potent in DoM. Starting as RK and with Adunabar having 3-4 assassins in my lands, I usually get a couple of 'building damaged' notifications every turn for the first few turns (I rarely need to test more than that at this stage), mainly targeting my markets and military development.
    In my games I always block up river crossings with cheap units to prevent agents and others infiltrating my lands. See if this has an effect on the behavior of the Adunabar agents in RK lands. I have a suspicion that the lack of a pathway to home territories might be what is messing with the AI.

  3. #2743

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    I need some hints on how to play Adunabar. I converted Minas Ithil, Barud-eden and Durthang into orc settlements...but how do I get Olog-hai and Wargs?

    Also, is it okay if I keep these 3 cities as evil (shadow) while keeping Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, etc as human (western men) culture? I'd like to build elite shadow units in the east and elite human units in the west.

  4. #2744

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Trolls are available through the Troll Caverns (available in Minas Ithil, Durthang, Dunhold, Dunchrioch) and Wargs through Warg Dens (available in Iath-in-Rhaw, Lith Morchant, Mid Deeping, Rhovanost, Narag-zigil, Ost-in-Agarlad, Derenost. Both are Diversification Buildings, which require a large city and a tier-4 temple.

    Yes, you can have dunedanic units in the west and cultic in the east, not a problem.

  5. #2745
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    I don't know if you have enough "bones" left, but I was wondering whether we can hope for animated banners?
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  6. #2746

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Not sure if Eorl has any experience there at all, but it's waay low on the priority list too. Have you seen them in some other mod? Maybe we could get permission and nick theirs...

  7. #2747

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Will the Adunabar faction in the Dominion of Men version have any Orc/Warg/Troll units and buildings from start? I personally always like it to play Adunabar as the 'good guys', still like to use the Shadow Cult as my religion, but I normally continue on the right path regarding only recruiting mannish units. Will that remain a possiblity or are we forced to start with Orcish units?
    Last edited by Elphir of Dol Amroth; May 20, 2013 at 05:30 AM.

  8. #2748

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Well, every campaign start is "forced" upon the player, since his own choices can only begin after that... Adunabar will start cultic, probably including a few beast units. After that point you can do whatever you want, keep it cultic or convert to dunedanic, though swapping alignments might cause some internal troubles.

  9. #2749

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Will dunedanic Adunabar be still basically a weaker RK (lacking few features/units but pretty much the same) regarding units and Specification Buildings or it will have certain non-cultic unique units?
    Last edited by Jagmodo; May 20, 2013 at 05:24 PM.

  10. #2750

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    It lacks a couple of RK units, but has some others exclusively. AoR units are shared as well (Lossarnach Axemen, Morthond Bowmen, etc). SB-wise, it lacks some RK options, but has 4 cult-related ones to make up for it.
    Last edited by Aradan; May 20, 2013 at 10:50 AM.

  11. #2751

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by RZZZA View Post
    I need some hints on how to play Adunabar. I converted Minas Ithil, Barud-eden and Durthang into orc settlements...but how do I get Olog-hai and Wargs?

    Also, is it okay if I keep these 3 cities as evil (shadow) while keeping Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, etc as human (western men) culture? I'd like to build elite shadow units in the east and elite human units in the west.
    Wargs are a real problem with the WoM mod. The cities which can have them are all culturally removed enough that building times make reaching the SB which permits their production take so long that the campaign will most certainly be decided, if not concluded, before your first Wargs can come into play.

    The main problem with playing Adunabar as Men of the West alignment is that your generals, and therefore your governors will be a different alignment from the populations and thereby incur a happiness penalty. This can be overcome by bribing some of the RK and Rohan generals; they, and half their offspring, will be Men of the West alignment.

    I hope in DoM, the alignment character traits will have a higher "no-going-back" level, and therefore can be reversed by maintaining generals in the presence of Men of the West temples (only in the absence of temples of The Shadow). This would allow the player, should he choose, to take steps at the commencement of the campaign to change their alignment away from The Shadow. This would add another challenge to players wishing to redeem the Adunabar faction as they will have to place their generals under a kind of house arrest in the crucial first few turns of the game until they are successfully converted.

  12. #2752

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambat View Post
    I hope in DoM, the alignment character traits will have a higher "no-going-back" level, and therefore can be reversed by maintaining generals in the presence of Men of the West temples (only in the absence of temples of The Shadow). This would allow the player, should he choose, to take steps at the commencement of the campaign to change their alignment away from The Shadow. This would add another challenge to players wishing to redeem the Adunabar faction as they will have to place their generals under a kind of house arrest in the crucial first few turns of the game until they are successfully converted.
    Having already completed the basic alignment-related triggers, I can answer this specifically.

    Characters begin with an alignment which is mainly based on their subculture, but also affected by their father's (if born into the faction) and the faction leader's (if adopted/married into the family) alignment. I might also some morality-based triggers here, at least for the Cult.

    There is a small chance every turn that a character (only Men) will convert to his father's alignment or his leader's (if he likes him enough) or the alignment that the settlement's cultural building/temple promotes. There's also a chance every time a character exterminates a settlement not of his alignment or when he spends a turn in a settlement with a building of his alignment to 'secure' or even strengthen his alignment. When a character either converts to a different alignment or secures/reinforces his original one, both of which don't happen often btw, that's it, he can no longer change.

    Cultists also have an extra "cult hierarchy" trait, which can secure/reinforce their beliefs beyond what other alignments can do.



    The idea, in contrast with what you hoped for, is that (in Adunabar's case) the player cannot spend some turns eliminating the Cult from amongst his generals and then simply forget about it for the rest of the campaign. The Cult will continue to be there and try to "get your people", and it's not under your total control. The choice is whether you go along with it or try and fight it, and both ways have their advantages and disadvantages (or at least that's our goal). We do want alignment to be meaningful and be worth the player's attention; and if you have a general (or even an heir/leader) that follows the "wrong" one ,then it's a problem, and it can't be solved just by putting in a specific settlement for a couple of turns. You can try to convert him, but it's difficult and slow, or you can get him killed, or you can let him be and hope it doesn't become an even bigger problem.



    As for Wargs and the difficulty of getting them, yes, that was not a perfect gameplay decision. Things are rather different in DoM, for Wargs and for Trolls (and Orcs), and access to them is easier.
    Last edited by Aradan; May 20, 2013 at 03:04 PM.

  13. #2753
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aradan View Post
    Not sure if Eorl has any experience there at all, but it's waay low on the priority list too. Have you seen them in some other mod? Maybe we could get permission and nick theirs...
    I expected to be it low priority. And no, I haven't seen it in any RTW mod, I thought that maybe you had that's why I asked. But I'll keep my eyes open.


    Anyway, as anyone who has worked with the EDU noticed at some point, adding attributes "long_pike" and "short_pike" to spearmen actually is changes their appearance in game. I was wondering, how the game "knows" the efficiency range of a weapon. Is that somehow tied with the model used, or is it tied with the animation and, if present, the pike attributes?
    Reason I ask is that Dunland's Tribal Pikes perform horrible against pretty much anything, much similar to phalanx units w/o secondary weapon for close combat, and I wonder how this can be remedied without having to add a secondary weapon.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  14. #2754

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    The radius of units' weapons is tied to their skeletons, but the pike attributes probably affect it as well.

  15. #2755

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thangaror View Post
    Reason I ask is that Dunland's Tribal Pikes perform horrible against pretty much anything, much similar to phalanx units w/o secondary weapon for close combat, and I wonder how this can be remedied without having to add a secondary weapon.
    Pikemen in most mods have to be used with care. You cannot simply order them to attack, as you can swordsmen and normal spearmen. You must keep them on a defensive stance and either allow the enemy to come to you, or walk the pikemen into the enemy lines by ordering them to walk to a point behind the enemy unit; otherwise the pikemen will lose their formation and become completely useless and vulnerable.

    Even so, make sure you have other units prepared to attack the flanks to the unit(s) targeted by the pikemen; pikemen are slow to make kills and and a few of the enemy solders are likely to find their way through the pikes and start making your pikemen miserable if you do not break the unit under assault.

  16. #2756
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    The problem with the Tribal Pikes is that technically they aren't pikemen. To maintain cohesion they'd need the short_pike attribute or long_pike in addition to phalanx or schiltrom.
    However, the short_pike attribute automatically equips them with short pikes and the phalanx-like appearance from BI. Given they have the 2handed spear skeleton this looks ridiculous, and it kinda also misses the point, since they're supposed to have longer pikes.
    Furthermore, any spearmen with the long_pike attribute essentially become phalangites, who without phalanx ability are useless, too, and without sword or dagger as sec. weapon are completely defenseless.

    I tried to counter these disadvantages by giving them shield wall, to maintain cohesion, but the game seems to have a "problem" to determine the position of the spearheads, meaning the graphical rendition of the spear and the position the game determines are different.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  17. #2757

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aradan View Post
    Characters begin with an alignment which is mainly based on their subculture, but also affected by their father's (if born into the faction) and the faction leader's (if adopted/married into the family) alignment. I might also some morality-based triggers here, at least for the Cult.

    There is a small chance every turn that a character (only Men) will convert to his father's alignment or his leader's (if he likes him enough) or the alignment that the settlement's cultural building/temple promotes. There's also a chance every time a character exterminates a settlement not of his alignment or when he spends a turn in a settlement with a building of his alignment to 'secure' or even strengthen his alignment. When a character either converts to a different alignment or secures/reinforces his original one, both of which don't happen often btw, that's it, he can no longer change.
    I’m fairly impressed by that... It sounds quite realistic.

    I was thinking about player choice to transit back from cultic to dunedainic alignment. For role-playing reason, from the start of the Adunabar campaign, we might have at least one charismatic family member in a ruling dynasty with dunedinic convictions, or at least serious doubt in cultic ways. That way, such transit back would seem more believable because if all family members are firmly cultic, transition (which requires for e.g. tearing down of cultic temples) would hardly happen. Another thing completely is revolution by its people, but that isn’t under player’s control or slowly absorbing back in conquered RK’s culture. Anyway, we could appoint him as heir, and when he becomes a ruler start turning people back (similar to Tar-Palantir). He still wouldn’t consider reunion with RK because of approximately 100 years of independence and war, and let’s say some philosophical differences between their people, even if they abandoned cultic practises.

    You have mentioned few times that each faction member will have an opinion about his ruler that will determine his loyalty and some other factors. It will be determined by his alignment, subculture and actions, right? Could it even go to a personal level? For example, death of a son in battle or losing a father in childhood could cause few ill-feelings against faction leader by victim’s family if it was in a reckless (or even deliberate) manner. That way player would have to rethink using faction members carelessly or even sending some of his undesirable family members to get killed. Otherwise, he could face a rebellion of his son/father (and his army too).

    I noticed that long time ago but I will add it to this post now. I know you have redone traits completely, but if you kept “Spartan” trait, I would advise you to rename it to something else. Right now it looks totally out of place since Sparta never existed in Middle-earth. Imagine bunch of Spartans impaling vast hordes of orcs in slow motion... Hmm, somehow it sounds familiar...
    Last edited by Jagmodo; May 22, 2013 at 11:50 AM.

  18. #2758

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jagmodo View Post
    I’m fairly impressed by that... It sounds quite realistic.
    Thanks, that's the intention.

    I was thinking about player choice to transit back from cultic to dunedainic alignment. For role-playing reason, from the start of the Adunabar campaign, we might have at least one charismatic family member in a ruling dynasty with dunedinic convictions, or at least serious doubt in cultic ways. That way, such transit back would seem more believable because if all family members are firmly cultic, transition (which requires for e.g. tearing down of cultic temples) would hardly happen. Another thing completely is revolution by its people, but that isn’t under player’s control or slowly absorbing back in conquered RK’s culture. Anyway, we could appoint him as heir, and when he becomes a ruler start turning people back (similar to Tar-Palantir). He still wouldn’t consider reunion with RK because of approximately 100 years of independence and war, and let’s say some philosophical differences between their people, even if they abandoned cultic practises.
    I've not yet decided on such details about the campaign start, but it's very possible that Adunabar (and other factions) will not start with all characters following the same alignment.
    If you're looking for "justification" for tearing down cultic temples, I'm not sure there can be one. The player makes the choices. If a player decides to turn his faction dunedanic while his faction leader is cultic, it is certainly "out of character" for the FL, but there's no way to stop it. The most RP-correct way would be to simply go along with the FL you have; and when an FL happens to be dunedanic, then start tearing cultic temples down...
    A different approach would be to make the player decide for the leader (rather than vice versa) and make it so that if the faction leader (under player's control) stays 2-3 turns immobile in a settlement with a building of alignment X, then he converts to it, if he hasn't already converted once or 'secured' his original alignment. But that allows the player the stop worrying about a 'wrongly aligned leader', which could be an interesting experience. Decisions, decisions...

    You have mentioned few times that each faction member will have an opinion about his ruler that will determine his loyalty and some other factors. It will be determined by his alignment, subculture and actions, right? Could it even go to a personal level? For example, death of a son in battle or losing a father in childhood could cause few ill-feelings against faction leader by victim’s family if it was in a reckless (or even deliberate) manner. That way player would have to rethink using faction members carelessly or even sending some of his undesirable family members to get killed. Otherwise, he could face a rebellion of his son/father (and his army too).
    There is no way to detect if someone's child has died, there aren't the necessary events/conditions. As for someone's father dying, I wanted to implement that, but the PreBattle event does not work, so no go. And we'd need more conditions, for example to check if the father's death was avoidable (eg leader sends the character to die) or if he died defending a settlement, etc.

    I noticed that long time ago but I will add it to this post now. I know you have redone traits completely, but if you kept “Spartan” trait, I would advise you to rename it to something else. Right now it looks totally out of place since Sparta never existed in Middle-earth. Imagine bunch of Spartans impaling vast hordes of orcs in slow motion... Hmm, somehow it sounds familiar...
    All traits that don't belong in Middle-earth have been either removed or renamed.

  19. #2759
    intel's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Speaking of Wargs... are they going to be modified in any way? Or they will still use horse skeleton?


  20. #2760

    Default Re: Ask Your Questions Here!

    Until we can find someone to make us a new skeleton...

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