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Thread: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

  1. #141
    Erebus Pasha's Avatar vezir-i âzam
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    Yeah, as I'm sure Rumenia didn't stay alone in WW1... I don't know why it's not a support for You that Russians hold the flank of Rumenian front.
    If we are talking about the months of August to December 1917 then no. Russian soldiers were pretty much inactive on all fronts.


    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    And not because of the horribles roads as they ran back much more faster on the same roads...
    Again you fail to take in strategic situation on the entire front.

    On August 27, three Romanian armies launched attacks through the Southern Carpathians and into Transylvania. The attacks were initially successful in pushing weak Austro-Hungarian units out of the mountains, but the Austro-Hungarians sent four divisions to reinforce the Austro-Hungarian lines, and by the middle of September, the Romanian offensive was halted. The Russians loaned them three divisions for operations in the north of Romania but very few supplies.

    The first counterattack came from General August von Mackensen in command of a multi-national army of Bulgarian divisions, some Ottoman divisions, and a German brigade. This army attacked north from Bulgaria, starting on September 1. It stayed on the south side of the Danube river and headed towards Constanţa. The Romanian garrison of Turtucaia, encircled by Bulgarian troops (aided by a column of German troops) surrendered on September 6 (see: Battle of Turtucaia).

    On September 15, the Romanian War Council decided to suspend the Transylvania offensive and destroy the Mackensen army group instead. The plan (the so-called Flămânda Maneuver) was to attack the Central Powers forces from the rear by crossing the Danube at Flămânda, while the front-line Romanian and Russian forces were supposed to launch an offensive southwards towards Cobadin and Kurtbunar. On October 1, two Romanian divisions crossed the Danube at Flămânda and created a bridgehead 14 kilometer-wide and 4 kilometer-deep. On the same day, the joint Romanian and Russian divisions went on offensive on the Dobruja front, however with little success. The failure to break the Dobruja front, combined with a heavy storm on the night of October 1/2 which caused heavy damages to the pontoon bridge, determined Averescu to cancel the whole operation. This would have serious consequences for the rest of the campaign.
    http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...n_(World_War_I)

    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    The problem is that Russian commander had no authorization to accept the annexation and Germany had an unofficial support for this... Thats not mean it was a legal issue!
    Irrelevant. The annexation of Bessarabia was done with the consent of all sides involved.


    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    The armistice between A-H and Entente was signed in November 3.
    Rumenia re-declare war in November 10.
    Germany signed the armistice in November 11.
    Rumenian troops attacked Transylvania at November 12.

    What is not understandable for You?
    So Germany signed the armistice the day after Romania re-entered the war so the war hadn't ended yet. You really should read what you write before you post my friend. The armistice signed on 3 November was between A-H and Italy only so again stop twisting the facts.


    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    really? So A-H was on point of collapse in 1915? I doubt it...
    The Brusilov Offensive was in 1916.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brusilov_Offensive

    Brusilov's operation achieved the original goal of forcing Germany to halt its attack on Verdun and transfer considerable forces to the East. It also broke the back of the Austro-Hungarian Army which lost nearly 1.5 million men (including 400,000 prisoners). The Austro-Hungarian Army was never able to mount a successful attack from this point onward. Instead it had to rely on the German Army for its military successes.

    http://www.worldwar1.com/tlbruoff.htm

    The Offense ruined Austria-Hungary. Weakened by political turmoil, Austria was unable to cope with its losses, of funds and of soldiers. It was forever eliminated as a major military power. The future brought the collapse of the Habsburg Empire and the formation of the Austrian and Hungarian republics.

    From Erich von Falkenhayn on 04/06/1916:

    In the east of Lutsk Russians broke through into the centre front of Austrians. In two days they lost a 50km front. Austrian 4th army was annihilated except a few. In Bukovina Austrian 7th army was in critical situation and retreated. It was clear enough that Galicia faced crisis.


    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    yeah sure as in Transylvania 450,000 rumenian soldiers attacked 35,000 A-H soldiers. In the 1st invasion of Serbia 270,000 A-H soldiers attacked 230,000 Serbian soldiers. Thats one of differences.
    A-H forces were thrown about by Serbian forces in 1914 and quite convincingly too. The Romanians halted the Transylvanian Offensive because of strategic considerations elsewhere.

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  2. #142

    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    A-H used total of 450,000 men, while Serbia could field total of 250,000 to 270,000.

    A-H lost 240,000(mostly captured) of those, give or take a few thousand...

  3. #143

    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Completely ignored my post, kept arguing about irrelevant things... typical. So for the last time:
    -Basarabia is majority-Romanian. You cannot compare it to Hungarian demands for Transylvania.

    -The Serbians have censuses regarding the ethnic composition of Kosovo. Meanwhile every census we have from the modern era (i.e. the only reliable ones, from 18th century onwards) shows that Romanians formed the majority in every region and there is no reason to doubt that this has always been the case. I cited Pal Engel for this argument; take your complaints to him.

    -snipa says "no, we don't want to those territories back"... then he compares his situation to Serbia and Kosovo.... I guarantee you Serbia wants Kosovo back since it has legal rights over it. So again snipa is just being two-faced in this entire debate.
    Last edited by Romano-Dacis; February 03, 2010 at 12:56 PM.

  4. #144

    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Quote Originally Posted by clandestino View Post
    Well the Srem is part of Serbia and province of Vojvodina now, in 1918 in AH there weren't entity called Vojvodina at all, the present day province of Vojvodina was formed after the WW II.
    The old name of Vajdaság was "Bács county" from 11th century. In 1918 the county name was "Bácska" the full name was "Bács-Bodrog vármegye" -> Bács-Bodrog county like other counties within the kingdom.

    If we count all the territories that belonged to the AH before WW I and now are the part of Serbia the proportion was 33,8% Serbs and 28,1% of Hungarians in 1910.
    I counted the population of Bács-Bodrog county as it was the entity which was joined to Serbia from Hungary. And here was 32% Magyars and 29% Serbs.

    Self-determination only served as a nice parole for the British and American ears.
    agree!

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast
    We predate you with more then 2000 years.
    i've showed this to my wife who learnt history in ELTE University and she sweetly laughed. Pls do not stop your funny things! I like listen to her laughing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus
    If we are talking about the months of August to December 1917 then no. Russian soldiers were pretty much inactive on all fronts.
    Again, did the Russian soldiers left the front or not? Even if they was no able to do any offensive operations and they were inactive on the front but stayed on front! That's mean Rumenia didn't stay alone!
    How many times i have to write this?

    Again you fail to take in strategic situation on the entire front.
    if you read my post u should know that I already mentioned your mentions about Transylvanian failed campaign. So what is your point again?
    Even general Averescu said their retreat was much more faster like the advance...

    Irrelevant. The annexation of Bessarabia was done with the consent of all sides involved.
    Irrelevant only for You as the Russian commander had no authorization to accept the annexation and Germany had an unofficial support for this... Thats not mean it was a legal issue! And we all know that today Bessarabia is not part of Rumenia!

    So Germany signed the armistice the day after Romania re-entered the war so the war hadn't ended yet. You really should read what you write before you post my friend. The armistice signed on 3 November was between A-H and Italy only so again stop twisting the facts.
    wrong, A-H signed the armistice with the Allies/Entente and not only with Italy at November 3. It began valid at November 4. PM 16:00! That's mean when Rumenia re-declare war on November 10 the war was already over for A-H! Morever when rumenian troops attacked Transylvania again at November 12 the war was over with Germany too !

    The Brusilov Offensive was in 1916.
    I think you misunderstood me! you said:
    But the similarities end there...on neither fronts did troops from country x have to be intermingled with those from another country y as an act of necessity because country y was on the point of collapse.

    I referred to your statement when a country is in point of collapse!
    The first time when German general led A-H army groups was in 1915! But in 1915 A-H was not in the point of collapse.

    A-H forces were thrown about by Serbian forces in 1914 and quite convincingly too. The Romanians halted the Transylvanian Offensive because of strategic considerations elsewhere.
    Rumenian forces were kicked out by A-H forces from Szekler land, and German&A-H mixed forces destroyed rumenian armies in south of Transylvania. That's mean rumenian attack was failed...
    Last edited by snipa; February 04, 2010 at 03:49 AM.
    On his deathbed, hungarian John Hunyadi told his countrymen:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "Defend, my friends, Christendom and Hungary from all enemies... Do not quarrel among yourselves. If you should waste your energies in altercations, you will seal your own fate as well as dig the grave of our country."

    Only rumenian extremists claim that John Hunyadi was rumenian! John Hunyadi's father was Vajk his brother name was Magos, John's brother name was also Vajk both name Vajk&Magos are ancient hungarian names!
    Hungarian principality of Transylvania

  5. #145

    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbird Alkibijad View Post
    A-H used total of 450,000 men, while Serbia could field total of 250,000 to 270,000.

    A-H lost 240,000(mostly captured) of those, give or take a few thousand...
    there are some contradiction in the sources:

    http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/ww1/1914j.html
    here:
    Serbian army of Putnik was resupplied by the French, counterattacked and defeated the Austrians at the Kolubara by Dec. 9 and drove them out of Serbia. Austria lost 230,000 casualties out of 450,000 troops, Serbia lost 170,000 of 400,000.

    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Serbian_Campa...d_War_I)?t=2.3.
    here:
    The first phase of the war against Serbia had ended with no change in the border, but the casualties were incredible compared to earlier wars, though sadly, not out of keeping with other campaigns of this war. The Serbian army lost around 170,000 men killed, wounded captured or missing. Austro-Hungarian losses were approaching 215,000. Austro-Hungarian General Potiorek was removed from command and replaced by Archduke Eugen of Austria (C. Falls p. 54). On the Serbian side, a deadly typhus epidemic killed hundreds of thousands of Serbian civilians during the winter.

    http://www.answers.com/topic/serbian-campaign
    But still, the Austro-Hungarians had available two armies (the Fifth and the Sixth) for an attack over the Bosnian border. The V. and VI. Austro-Hungarian armies comprised about 270,000 men which were much better equipped than the Serbians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian...n_(World_War_I)
    The Serbian army at the start of the war was some 180,000 strong, commanded by Marshal (Vojvoda) Radomir Putnik.
    But still, the Austro-Hungarians had available two armies (the Fifth and the Sixth) for an attack over the Bosnian border. The V. and VI. Austro-Hungarian armies comprised about 270,000 men which were much better equipped than the Serbians.

    So I'm not sure about the correct numbers!
    On his deathbed, hungarian John Hunyadi told his countrymen:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "Defend, my friends, Christendom and Hungary from all enemies... Do not quarrel among yourselves. If you should waste your energies in altercations, you will seal your own fate as well as dig the grave of our country."

    Only rumenian extremists claim that John Hunyadi was rumenian! John Hunyadi's father was Vajk his brother name was Magos, John's brother name was also Vajk both name Vajk&Magos are ancient hungarian names!
    Hungarian principality of Transylvania

  6. #146
    ShockBlast's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post

    i've showed this to my wife who learnt history in ELTE University and she sweetly laughed. Pls do not stop your funny things! I like listen to her laughing...
    Wife?University?
    Mate we do predate you with more then 2000 years.All historians agree that we are Daco-Romans.End of story.
    NOTE that i said historians.

  7. #147
    Kara Kolyo's Avatar Mikhail
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Mate we do predate you with more then 2000 years.All historians agree that we are Daco-Romans.End of story.
    So the thread's title should be changed to "Did everyone in Europe steal lands from Romania?"
    and post the map from the previous page. Funny how the kettle called the pot black


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  8. #148

    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Sure, over my dead body.
    Croat by the way. Why do they think they have the right anyway?

  9. #149
    clandestino's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    The old name of Vajdaság was "Bács county" from 11th century. In 1918 the county name was "Bácska" the full name was "Bács-Bodrog vármegye" -> Bács-Bodrog county like other counties within the kingdom.
    Wrong my friend, you don't even know which lands you want back, present day Vojvodina consists of parts of 5 old Hungarian counties:

    1.part of Bacs-Bodrog county ( other part in Hungary )
    2.part of Torontal county ( other part in Romania )
    3.part of Temes county ( other part in Romania )
    4.part of Szerem county ( other part in Croatia )
    5.tiny part of Krasso-Szoreny county ( the most of it in Romania )

    So the teritories of old Bacs-Bodrog county is just one part of Vojvodina
    ( region of Bačka ), roughly they consists one-third of it.

    present day province of Vovodina in the Republic of Serbia, you can see Bačka region in the north-west:



    the territories of old counties of Kingdom of Hungary which are now partially in Serbia ( Vojvodina ):



    I counted the population of Bács-Bodrog county as it was the entity which was joined to Serbia from Hungary. And here was 32% Magyars and 29% Serbs.
    Nope, only one part of Bacs-Bodrog county was joined to Serbia:



    I'm quite disappointed with you snipa, I would except from Hungarian patriot to know history and geography of his country far better.
    Last edited by clandestino; February 04, 2010 at 07:45 AM.
    join the light side of the Force: Kosovo is Serbia
    Fight for the creation of new Serbian Empire


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  10. #150
    ShockBlast's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Kolyo View Post
    So the thread's title should be changed to "Did everyone in Europe steal lands from Romania?"
    You have a problem with the fact that we predate the Hungarians in Europe?Romanians might have the most Latin language but we don't claim to be Romans,we are Dacians and Romans,we only want the territories that have Romanians.
    and post the map from the previous page. Funny how the kettle called the pot black
    What map?Do you just enter in a discussion for the sake of saying something?
    Last edited by ShockBlast; February 04, 2010 at 02:17 PM.

  11. #151

    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Kolyo View Post
    So the thread's title should be changed to "Did everyone in Europe steal lands from Romania?"
    and post the map from the previous page. Funny how the kettle called the pot black
    The only way someone could make a post like yours is if they went through this entire thread blind-folded. What "pot call the kettle black"? what are you even alluding to!? Do you even comprehend the arguments going on here?

    Let me simplify it down for you:
    Hungarian Position (and apparently Bulgarian as well, now that you bring it up): legitimacy over a region belongs to "who was there first." Romanians cannot have legitimacy over Transylvania because "Magyar here before Olah!" I don't know how they resolve this for Slovakia or Vojvodina; I guess the Slavs also just came there after the Magyars... somehow. Legitimacy of a country to exist also depends on what moron created a kingdom some time in the past, and by how much that predates other states.

    Romanian Position: Territorial sovereignty is tied primarily to national self-determination. Land belongs to people who live there, and what they decide, so long as it is within the legal norms of the time, is acceptable. Do the people of Transylvania and Slovakia not want to be a part of Hungary? Yes. Hungarians in those regions who desire it are a minority, and we cannot have tyranny of a minority, as happened from 1868-1919. Slovaks, Romanians, Serbians, Ukranians, and all other people have a right to determine their own destiny.

    What exactly does predating someone have to do with anything!? I'm arguing that the only legitimacy a state can have over its territories is by self-determination. This has been the Romanian argument for our state's territorial integrity at least since the time of A.D. Xenopol in the late 19th century. He wrote that word-for-word in the introduction to his work The History of the Romanians of Trajan's Dacia (1889-1893).Regarding the fact that Romanians predate Hungarians: it's evident to anyone who knows at least a little about:
    a) the Roman Empire
    b) the Dark Ages
    and is capable of putting them in chronological order.
    Last edited by Romano-Dacis; February 04, 2010 at 10:55 AM.

  12. #152
    Kara Kolyo's Avatar Mikhail
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    @Shockblast - I actually follow this discussion and the albanian one quite closelly, so no it's not for the sake of saying something.
    My point was to mock the romanian Wunderwaffe in TWC - wheter the discussion is about, Hungary, Bulgaria, albanians, even greeks, their territories in the past or historical figures - there are always romanians who will use The argument to end all arguments - Hey we were here first and we are still the only pure nation around, so you must shut up and go away in shame.

    C'mon before starting calling people nationalists (even if they deserve it) look in the mirror and remember the thing about the first to throw stones

    Edit - Sorry Romano you posted while i was typing.
    So you mean that i cannot find in this thread alone atleast five posts by romanians who use as counterargument the "We were here first"? I saw snipa getting in the argument about first came first serve just after romanians brought it up. And this time arround you cannot squeeze yourself out saying that this is not the romanian position, because it was posted by two of your countrymen.
    Actually the bulgarian position is on the contrary - We unlike Romania recognised Kosovo and the selfdetermination option. Try to counter me on this please.

    And please i can see that the mods are tolerating your position, but try to restrain from personal insults
    Last edited by Kara Kolyo; February 04, 2010 at 10:51 AM.


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  13. #153
    il padrino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Kolyo View Post
    Actually the bulgarian position is on the contrary - We unlike Romania recognised Kosovo and the selfdetermination option. Try to counter me on this please.
    Oh realy,you recognized the selfdetermination of which people in Kosovo and Metohija,Albanians ?They already had selfedermination,that's why they have their state ALBANIA.So that "self-determination" argument about Kosovo is plain BS,because it's about not respecting the borders of your neghbour,a member of the UN,not something else.If you realy like self-determination that much,try recognizing Republika Srpska,Kurdistan,South Ossetia,and other territories

    On the other hand Romania fully respects the international law and it's neighbours border,so they have nothing to be ashamed of.

  14. #154
    Kara Kolyo's Avatar Mikhail
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Sorry il Padrino but we either use the selfdetermination for everybody or not use it at all - We can apply your standart then to the topic at hand - the romanians in Transilvania had their country, so they should stay quiet and remain in the country that they were before.

    Now i'm off to watch Avatar so will be able to enjoy your responces in couple of hours
    Last edited by Kara Kolyo; February 04, 2010 at 11:02 AM.


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  15. #155
    ShockBlast's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Kolyo View Post
    @Shockblast - I actually follow this discussion and the albanian one quite closelly, so no it's not for the sake of saying something.
    My point was to mock the romanian Wunderwaffe in TWC - wheter the discussion is about, Hungary, Bulgaria, albanians, even greeks, their territories in the past or historical figures - there are always romanians who will use The argument to end all arguments - Hey we were here first and we are still the only pure nation around, so you must shut up and go away in shame.
    I didn't ask for the Dacian or Roman lands back and i think no Romanian did but yes out of all people we are the first here but that doesn't gives us anymore right over your lands.We want the Moldova back and Hungary should wake up from it's dream.
    C'mon before starting calling people nationalists (even if they deserve it) look in the mirror and remember the thing about the first to throw stones
    The Hungarians who can't accept that they aren't the majority in Transylvania?

    So you mean that i cannot find in this thread alone atleast five posts by romanians who use as counterargument the "We were here first"? I saw snipa getting in the argument about first came first serve just after romanians brought it up. And this time arround you cannot squeeze yourself out saying that this is not the romanian position, because it was posted by two of your countrymen.
    You don't have the the history we have with Snipa,he tries to convince us that they were first here witch is stupid.You know we came from Albania or got dropped from space WarHammer 40.000 style,Snipa hasn't made his mind with one he likes more.So yeah the good old ''we are first'' is the right answer because he tries to show that historically they had it first that historically it's their land.
    Actually the bulgarian position is on the contrary - We unlike Romania recognised Kosovo and the selfdetermination option. Try to counter me on this please.
    Self-determination my arse,the Serbs pissed the Yanks out and the Yanks gave the Albanians a second state.
    Last edited by ShockBlast; February 04, 2010 at 11:07 AM.

  16. #156
    il padrino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Kara Kolyo@

    Now when did Romanians tried to form an independent state of Transilvania ?


    And Transilvania was won in a war,and there was a treaty,which verified the new borders in Europe.



    Let's see about Kosovo.('90s period)

    Yugoslavia was illegaly bombed,without UN approval,NATO came to Kosovo,according to the UN1244 resolution(made after the bombings) that among other things fully recognized Serbias sovreign borders(that means Serbia including Kosovo and Metohija).Albanians proclaimed their "independence" unilateraly,without any agreement,treaty and contrary to any law.

    And this seems normal,and legal to you ?

  17. #157
    Erebus Pasha's Avatar vezir-i âzam
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    Again, did the Russian soldiers left the front or not? Even if they was no able to do any offensive operations and they were inactive on the front but stayed on front! That's mean Rumenia didn't stay alone!
    How many times i have to write this?
    You can write it as much as you want buddy but it doesn't change the fact that the Russians weren't able to provide any effective or meaningful support for their allies during the latter months of 1917. This was my original point.


    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    if you read my post u should know that I already mentioned your mentions about Transylvanian failed campaign. So what is your point again?
    Even general Averescu said their retreat was much more faster like the advance...
    The overall strategic position that the Romanians found themselves in. You've got a nerve accusing me of ignoring your posts when you have just ignored the quote I've provided above explaining the reasons for the cancellation of the Transylvanian offensive.


    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    Irrelevant only for You as the Russian commander had no authorization to accept the annexation and Germany had an unofficial support for this... Thats not mean it was a legal issue! And we all know that today Bessarabia is not part of Rumenia!
    Has every annexation ever conducted throughout history during wartime been legal? I would hazard a guess that the answer is no. What did you expect the Romanians to do...hire a lawyer? Look I'm getting rather bored because me and others on this forum have explained countless times the reasons for this annexation of Bessarabia by Romania, the attitude of the people of Bessarabia to this annexation and the consent of both Romania's allies and enemies to this event.


    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    wrong, A-H signed the armistice with the Allies/Entente and not only with Italy at November 3. It began valid at November 4. PM 16:00! That's mean when Rumenia re-declare war on November 10 the war was already over for A-H! Morever when rumenian troops attacked Transylvania again at November 12 the war was over with Germany too !
    Look the armistice signed on November 3 was between Italy and A-H and not the entire entente. Also the fact that Germany didn't sign an armistice with the allies until after Romania's re-entry into the war means that the war hadn't ended however trivial this may sound to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    I think you misunderstood me! you said:
    But the similarities end there...on neither fronts did troops from country x have to be intermingled with those from another country y as an act of necessity because country y was on the point of collapse.
    Which they did in the case of A-H and Germany did they not?

    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    I referred to your statement when a country is in point of collapse!
    The first time when German general led A-H army groups was in 1915! But in 1915 A-H was not in the point of collapse.
    I was referring to the Brusilov Offensive in particular as at this time the A-H forces on this front were in a wretched state. But the failure of A-H offensives both at the end of 1915 on the Eastern front and during 1914 on the Balkan Front had caused the Germans to take effective command of A-H forces in both regions. Only in Italy until 1917 were the A-H running their own show.


    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    Rumenian forces were kicked out by A-H forces from Szekler land, and German&A-H mixed forces destroyed rumenian armies in south of Transylvania. That's mean rumenian attack was failed...
    Actually offensive operations by Romanian forces had been cancelled due to the German, Bulgarian and Ottoman forces crossing the Danube. But like I have already stated A-H forces weren't able to take the offensive until the arrival of Falkenhayn and the German 9th Army which played the key role of pushing the Romanians out of Transylvania.

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  18. #158
    Kara Kolyo's Avatar Mikhail
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    So let me summarise how i see the things: The romanian side in this dispute has two main arguments why getting Transilvania after WW1 was their right

    1 - the historical argument - We were inhabiting this land uninterupted since the dacian and roman times and we are the true descendants of romans and dacians. Plus we had a great majority in this land that allowed us when we had the chance to take it.

    2- the selfdetermination argument - We always respected the selfdetermination of all people and it was an unalienable right of the romanians in Transilvania when the central powers were defeated to take all the lands we can get.

    Am i correct?

    Well if that's the case there are some objections - some of them presented by snipa already.
    But can you show me documents that romanians continually inhabited Transilvania for the last 2000 years? Somehow i don't see this to be undisputed fact among the international historical community.

    Secondly Romania itself not always is in total support of the right of selfdetermination and there are enough examples of that.

    And in the end i would like to say that if the romanian members of this forum stated clearly - Look we had some rights over this land, but most importantly we were on the winning side, so the situation is this and you have to accept it - Than i would have no problem. But the Hypocricy comes abit too much.

    @il Padrino - i never said that personaly have no objections at all for the Kosovo split. But then again using your words - You lost it in a war, there was a treaty, accept it and move on. Just like we did (with some exceptions ofcource| with Macedonia and Thrace


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  19. #159
    il padrino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Kolyo View Post
    @il Padrino - i never said that personaly have no objections at all for the Kosovo split. But then again using your words - You lost it in a war, there was a treaty, accept it and move on. Just like we did (with some exceptions ofcource| with Macedonia and Thrace
    Ok,we lost in a war,and made a treaty(1244 resolution) that says that Kosovo is part of Serbia.Can you show me some other legal treaty that says otherwise ?

    And i don't think you can compare Macedonia with Kosovo...

  20. #160

    Default Re: Did Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, and Romania Steal Lands from Hungary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Kolyo View Post
    Edit - Sorry Romano you posted while i was typing.
    So you mean that i cannot find in this thread alone atleast five posts by romanians who use as counterargument the "We were here first"? I saw snipa getting in the argument about first came first serve just after romanians brought it up. And this time arround you cannot squeeze yourself out saying that this is not the romanian position, because it was posted by two of your countrymen.
    If you can show me where ShockBlast was saying "Transylvania is ours because we were here first" you win.
    Until then ShockBlast was only arguing an obvious factual inaccuracy made by snipa. He was not saying that us being there first justifies our possession of Transylvania.
    Actually the bulgarian position is on the contrary - We unlike Romania recognised Kosovo and the selfdetermination option. Try to counter me on this please.
    We're against "social darwinism" politics as practiced by Hitler and the Axis, where right is granted by military power. As far as I am concerned Kosovo breaking off of Serbia unilaterally was an illegal act by the norms established in the UN.

    I'm all for self-determination, but military occupation by a foreign power does not constitute self-determination.
    And please i can see that the mods are tolerating your position, but try to restrain from personal insults
    It's an honest question since you still do not understand our position.

    EDIT: Continued
    So let me summarise how i see the things: The romanian side in this dispute has two main arguments why getting Transilvania after WW1 was their right

    1 - the historical argument - We were inhabiting this land uninterupted since the dacian and roman times and we are the true descendants of romans and dacians. Plus we had a great majority in this land that allowed us when we had the chance to take it.
    This is not an argument at all.

    2- the selfdetermination argument - We always respected the selfdetermination of all people and it was an unalienable right of the romanians in Transilvania when the central powers were defeated to take all the lands we can get.
    Quite a screwed up way of putting it. The people in Transylvania had their choice to see what they wanted to remain a part of. Both the Romanians and Saxons of Transylvania voted union with Romania in 1918. Unification != annexation.

    Well if that's the case there are some objections - some of them presented by snipa already.
    But can you show me documents that romanians continually inhabited Transilvania for the last 2000 years? Somehow i don't see this to be undisputed fact among the international historical community.
    1) Yes. See "Debate over Transylvania" thread. There are literally hundreds of arguments available. It may not be an open-and-shut case, but the vast majority of Western academia holds the position that the Dacians were Romanized and we are the result. Here are just a few examples:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    [1] http://www.usd.edu/~clehmann/pir/dacia.htm

    [2] http://books.google.com/books?id=n0s-wiyKKegC&pg=PP1&dq

    [3] http://books.google.com/books?id=xNj...=trajan#PPA172

    [4] http://books.google.ca/books?id=2-tZ...+romanized&lr=

    [5] http://books.google.ca/books?id=Nwvo...a+romanized&lr

    [6] http://books.google.com/books?id=dw3...awal&lr=#PPA30

    [7] http://books.google.ca/books?id=kxKB...zed&lr=#PPA124

    [8] http://books.google.com/books?id=DWi...+Dacian#PPA121

    [9] http://books.google.com/books?id=qIo...hdrawal#PPA157

    [10] http://books.google.ca/books?id=2Y8G...lonization&lr=

    [11] http://books.google.com/books?id=BV7...omanization&lr

    [12] http://books.google.com/books?id=PSh...man&lr=#PPA216

    [13] http://books.google.ca/books?id=ZYEO...+continuity&lr

    [14] http://books.google.ca/books?id=5KIO...continuity&lr=

    [15] http://books.google.ca/books?id=_rjg...ation&lr=#PPA3

    [16] http://books.google.com/books?id=Lwt...eak&lr=#PPA143


    [17]Library of Congress, Romania: A Country Study. http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...d(DOCID+ro0014)

    [18] Ibidem. http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field (DOCID+ro0015)

    [19] Ibidem. http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field (DOCID+ro0017)

    [20] Nevill Forbes, Arnold J. Toynbee, D. Mitrany, D. G. Hogarth; The Balkans, Digital Antiquaria, p. 165, 2004. http://books.google.com/books?id=qDd...C&pg=PA165&dq=

    [21] Marshall Cavendish, Peoples of Europe, Marshall Cavendish Corporation, p. 391, http://books.google.com/books?id=gwq...Dacia&as_brr=3

    [22] Le Glay, Marcel, Jean-Louis Voisin, Le Bohec, Yann, A History of Rome. Oxford: Blackwell Publishers, 2001. Pp. 586. ISBN 0-631-21859-9. p. 320
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Efe...+romanized&lr=

    [23] Mary Taliaferro Boatwright, Daniel J. Gargola, Richard J. A. Talbert. The Romans. Oxford University Press. 2004. p. 438
    http://books.google.com/books?id=YwH...lian+dacia&lr=

    [24] Charles King, The Black Sea: A History, Oxford University Press, 2004, p. 51
    http://books.google.com/books?id=jss...bandonment&lr=

    2) The burden of proof rests on the opposition. As far as international historiography is concerned we are the largest Romance-speaking population in Eastern Europe, centered around a former province of the Roman Empire that is proven to have been drastically Romanized. The logical assumption is that we have always been there. So far no alternative theory has found any merit, and most of them are contradictory.
    Also, all the people I have asked suggest a North-to-South migration. Serbs, Greeks, even most Bulgarians.

    Secondly Romania itself not always is in total support of the right of selfdetermination and there are enough examples of that.
    The Kosovo example is a strawman because Romania does not question the Kosovo Albanians' rights, only the means by which they have been exercised. How can one claim self-determination when your country is occupied by a foreign power?
    Last edited by Romano-Dacis; February 04, 2010 at 01:55 PM.

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