Pikes

[Heraclius]

I genuinely don't understand how to use them. I had a city garrisoned with Ricco and the Alacatan Fellowship and figured it would be immune to assault. However, a few units (2 Black orc destroyers and 2 Black orcs) plowed right through them in a siege.

I tried setting the pikemen to spear wall and guard as well as just spear wall and while the latter was initially effective my men eventually turned around and allowed themselves to be slaughtered from behind.

I thought in a siege a wall of pikeman closing off a street was king, especially with the Republican Guard.

Just wonder how you guys use pikes and if I am missing the nuance needed to command them. As they are they look really cool, but don't really hold much water. I guess I'll just stick with halberdiers?

[GERMANICUS]

Did you chance select the Guard mode button when you positioned them to hold the street.
Always remember youngling to use this fix a unit in position.

[Chevalier IX]

my pike defense usually involves setting them to defend and allowing the enemy to come to me.after their initial charge I take my boys off guard and put them in attack mode where they typically commence to punch a hole through the line.remember pike walls were used historically against cavalry to protect against their charge,but against infantry they were an offensive weapon.Think of the pike blocks of the 30 years wars and the sarissas of the macedonians when considering how to best use them in a case by case scenario.I know my Leopards rip the foe apart...

[Heraclius]

No I started with them on guard mode and they were simply being cut to shreds by the black orcs, casualties were around 10:1 against me. After I put them on offensive they did start to cut a hole until the turned their back to the black orc destroyers. Chev seems to be on to something. Guard mode seems to be a bad idea for spear wall units in prolonged melee. Thanks for the idea.

[Valiant Champion]

No I started with them on guard mode and they were simply being cut to shreds by the black orcs, casualties were around 10:1 against me. After I put them on offensive they did start to cut a hole until the turned their back to the black orc destroyers. Chev seems to be on to something. Guard mode seems to be a bad idea for spear wall units in prolonged melee. Thanks for the idea.

Check the mass on those black Orcs. When you have a massive unit like that with multiple hit points, high attack and high defense you can't expect most human units to handle them.

Also check your pikemens attack values. They are very low compared to Kingdoms balancing. The mod team must have decided to make pikemen very weak offensive units. Even the best spearwall animation won't hold when its attack is pitifully weak. Especially when that attack 5 - 7 is trying to dent the armor of units with between 15 and 20 defense with 2 hitpoints.

Compare to Kingdoms balancing of 10 for landsneckts and 13 for Aventuros.

And in a city pikes are more prone to break formation. Guard mode is the best way to have them set in a city. Guard mode prevents them from turning around. Only take off guard mode when you are certian the unit can deal a decisive blow.

[Outlawstar15a2]

I've had this problem, mine is even worse. The only spear wall using unit that works is Empire Halberdiers other then that I find no matter what I do as soon as I issue a move OR attack order the pike unit breaks formation and engages with swords. Even with spear wall activated along with guard mode as soon as somebody touches the unit or it moves or attacks the unit goes to swords and breaks formation. It is a chronic problem and the only way around it is to simply not use mercenary pikes which is a bummer because they look awesome.

[Maias227]

I used pikes last night during a siege to some success actually. I think it was the republican guard.

http://www.mediafire.com/?xzmwjemy2hl You can download the replay and try have a look how I used them. You may need to go like halway in as we spent at least 10 minutes playing cat and mice with a hellcanon and a unit of pistoliers.

[Vaz]

I know it might be move fluffy to leave them with swords/kives (they were the true killers - knock an enemy down, wound them with the pikes, and move forward, stabbing down as you go forward), but I've decided to remove all secondary weapons from mine. Yes makes them a bit more powerful - and I need to sort out the balancing later on, but it really makes them the power they should be.

[Valiant Champion]

I just don't have the problems some of you claim to have. They work pretty decent considering their attack numbers are so low. A weapon does not have a defense value, it has an attack value. For a weapon like the pike a good offensive value makes for a good defensive spearwall.

I have no problem holding spearwall against uber units at least for a few minutes. If they could demolish any unit in the game than people would be crying they are overpowered.

Here High Elves pikemen keep Chaos warriors at bay for 7 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFcGODuHh8Y

Here is a good offensive tactic to use with pikemen. Notice how the formation resembles my signature picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAfy79a20iw

Here we put pike/swords to the test against all pikes. All pikes should win! right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E2gBRc5WPQ

All three videos are using pike mechanics identical to the ones in this mod.

Pikes left in guard mode need no babysitting. If you have them on attack than you have to expect they will use up their pikes and turn to the bad war eventually. That is historical reality. What is not historical is pikes being used offensively alone. The Swiss won most of their battles using halberdiers, not pikemen. Pikemen were adopted mostly due to their advantage against cavalry. Also the Swiss were impressed by the use of an Austrian King who dismounted his knights and equipped them to fight with their long lances. Although the Swiss won that battle, they never forgot the lesson.

The middle guard of a Swiss guard Cantonel army had a ring of Pikemen on its front, sides and rear but he core of the unit consisted of halberdiers and the bearers of the Cantonel banners and flags. They knew the pike wall would not hold which is why the halberdiers stood ready to plug the breach or exploit a break in the enemies spearwall.

If you expect pikemen to be the God unit of a game and that they should pawn trolls, bloodletters, chaos chosen etc etc you will forever be disappointed unless you want to make your unit something unrealistic.

If however you expect Pikemen to be good defensive troops versus both cavalry and infantry and on the rare occasion to be used offensively when the opportunity presents itself you will definitely not be disappointed.

My only complaint on the pikemen in the mod at present is that they need at least 2 or 3 more attack points on the pikes. However you could leave the secondary attack values alone.

[Outlawstar15a2]

I just don't have the problems some of you claim to have. They work pretty decent considering their attack numbers are so low. A weapon does not have a defense value, it has an attack value. For a weapon like the pike a good offensive value makes for a good defensive spearwall.

I have no problem holding spearwall against uber units at least for a few minutes. If they could demolish any unit in the game than people would be crying they are overpowered.

Here High Elves pikemen keep Chaos warriors at bay for 7 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFcGODuHh8Y

Here is a good offensive tactic to use with pikemen. Notice how the formation resembles my signature picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAfy79a20iw

Here we put pike/swords to the test against all pikes. All pikes should win! right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E2gBRc5WPQ

All three videos are using pike mechanics identical to the ones in this mod.

Pikes left in guard mode need no babysitting. If you have them on attack than you have to expect they will use up their pikes and turn to the bad war eventually. That is historical reality. What is not historical is pikes being used offensively alone. The Swiss won most of their battles using halberdiers, not pikemen. Pikemen were adopted mostly due to their advantage against cavalry. Also the Swiss were impressed by the use of an Austrian King who dismounted his knights and equipped them to fight with their long lances. Although the Swiss won that battle, they never forgot the lesson.

The middle guard of a Swiss guard Cantonel army had a ring of Pikemen on its front, sides and rear but he core of the unit consisted of halberdiers and the bearers of the Cantonel banners and flags. They knew the pike wall would not hold which is why the halberdiers stood ready to plug the breach or exploit a break in the enemies spearwall.

If you expect pikemen to be the God unit of a game and that they should pawn trolls, bloodletters, chaos chosen etc etc you will forever be disappointed unless you want to make your unit something unrealistic.

If however you expect Pikemen to be good defensive troops versus both cavalry and infantry and on the rare occasion to be used offensively when the opportunity presents itself you will definitely not be disappointed.

My only complaint on the pikemen in the mod at present is that they need at least 2 or 3 more attack points on the pikes. However you could leave the secondary attack values alone.

We don't want them to be God units. Farthest from it. We just want them to maintain formation. I understand Pikemen had secondary weapons for a reason, but when I simply tell them to move two feet, and they switch to swords for no reason or when I order them to attack and they simply touch the tip of their pikes and then switch. Well then something is seriously wrong. Pikemen would only switch weapons when the enemy got too close to reliably use a pike. But thats not whats happening here they're switching weapons even when simply moving a very short distance. Thats not good and that tends to make them useless. Especially when I spend most of the time trying to coax the AI to come to me and it just sits there getting hit with lead shot, cannonballs, arrows, and god knows what else I shoot at them...

[Valiant Champion]

Me and maias both put up links. His was a replay. Mine are some youtube videos, one from this very game. If you are having such a horrible time maybe you can upload a replay or something so I can see what the problem is.

As I said before the only problem left for pikemen in the mod right now is a very low attack. double weapon pikemen of the type of high grade mercenaries in the game they are, should have from between 8 - 13 attack. That is Kingdoms attack for pikes.

Anyways thank god someone has a mod that doesnt have perma-pikemen. It is rediculously unreal and pathetic to have long pikes all the time. Especially when they mount the city walls.

Give up on the invincible macedonian spearwall obsession!

They got plastered by the Romans and they almost lost every critical engagment they had when matched against well trained hoplites and persian troops. If you read up on Alexander the Great you will see time and time again where his phalanxes got into deep trouble and only succeeded after he rolled up the line. They were too slow for his style of warfare and oftentimes got disorganized and easily broken up. Despite their long pointy sticks they even got sliced through by Iranian Cavalry. The very thing they should have had an advantage against.

In the medieval era they were supported by halberdiers, billmen, and swordsmen. Even tercio squares were backed up by shield and buckler men and halberdiers. Mercnary pikemen were dedicated to their weapon when hired, as the client usually used the pikemen to augment his combined arms forces. As an independent military force pikemen had to be supported by other arms.

I would rather have realism over perma-pikes anyday.

[Outlawstar15a2]

Me and maias both put up links. His was a replay. Mine are some youtube videos, one from this very game. If you are having such a horrible time maybe you can upload a replay or something so I can see what the problem is.

As I said before the only problem left for pikemen in the mod right now is a very low attack. double weapon pikemen of the type of high grade mercenaries in the game they are, should have from between 8 - 13 attack. That is Kingdoms attack for pikes.

Anyways thank god someone has a mod that doesnt have perma-pikemen. It is rediculously unreal and pathetic to have long pikes all the time. Especially when they mount the city walls.

Give up on the invincible macedonian spearwall obsession!

They got plastered by the Romans and they almost lost every critical engagment they had when matched against well trained hoplites and persian troops. If you read up on Alexander the Great you will see time and time again where his phalanxes got into deep trouble and only succeeded after he rolled up the line. They were too slow for his style of warfare and oftentimes got disorganized and easily broken up. Despite their long pointy sticks they even got sliced through by Iranian Cavalry. The very thing they should have had an advantage against.

In the medieval era they were supported by halberdiers, billmen, and swordsmen. Even tercio squares were backed up by shield and buckler men and halberdiers. Mercnary pikemen were dedicated to their weapon when hired, as the client usually used the pikemen to augment his combined arms forces. As an independent military force pikemen had to be supported by other arms.

I would rather have realism over perma-pikes anyday.

With all due respect sir, but did you even listen to the legitimate complaint we posted?

We're not asking for a invincible pikeman that is unrealistic that can plow through three armies before getting a single dent in armor. We merely want pikemen that follow orders and actually function in a logical manner. I don't have problems with pikemen switching to swords when in MELEE distance. I have a problem with pikemen switching to swords because I told them to move a few inches, or AS SOON as the enemy makes contact with the TIP of the pike and NOT when they get within them. I have a problem when they switch to swords for illogical reasons. I can look at them the wrong way and they will switch to their secondary weapon for NO LOGICAL REASON. This is not normal behavior for pikemen in either real life or total war. At this rate their not even combat serviceable.

Your saying: Pikemen should switch to swords when the enemy gets too close(melee distance), or when theirs not enough room for pikes. I strongly Agree.
I'm saying: That pikemen are non functional because they switch for no apparent reason, including when issued a move order in a location and to a location with more then enough room for pikes, anytime when ordered to attack even if the enemy hasn't joined battle yet are when too far to warrant melee, sometimes when just standing there in guard mode with spearwall, enemies not even a factor. And you say to this. Nein, nein, nein.

[Valiant Champion]

With all due respect sir, but did you even listen to the legitimate complaint we posted?

We're not asking for a invincible pikeman that is unrealistic that can plow through three armies before getting a single dent in armor. We merely want pikemen that follow orders and actually function in a logical manner. I don't have problems with pikemen switching to swords when in MELEE distance. I have a problem with pikemen switching to swords because I told them to move a few inches, or AS SOON as the enemy makes contact with the TIP of the pike and NOT when they get within them. I have a problem when they switch to swords for illogical reasons. I can look at them the wrong way and they will switch to their secondary weapon for NO LOGICAL REASON. This is not normal behavior for pikemen in either real life or total war. At this rate their not even combat serviceable.

Your saying: Pikemen should switch to swords when the enemy gets too close(melee distance), or when theirs not enough room for pikes. I strongly Agree.
I'm saying: That pikemen are non functional because they switch for no apparent reason, including when issued a move order in a location and to a location with more then enough room for pikes, anytime when ordered to attack even if the enemy hasn't joined battle yet are when too far to warrant melee, sometimes when just standing there in guard mode with spearwall, enemies not even a factor. And you say to this. Nein, nein, nein.

Replay or video from this mod using version 1.02 please? Showing evidence that they are not functioning properly. Only criteria is that the unit remain stationary in guard mode. I have an eye for detail.

We came out with our evidence they work. If you claim they dont, You should have the kindness to do likewise.

[Outlawstar15a2]

Replay or video from this mod using version 1.02 please? Showing evidence that they are not functioning properly. Only criteria is that the unit remain stationary in guard mode. I have an eye for detail.

We came out with our evidence they work. If you claim they dont, You should have the kindness to do likewise.

I'm using 1.01. I don't have 1.02. I have the files on my computer but I want to wait for them to clear some of the bugs first...

[Mr. Sorrow]

I had 1.01 with Valiant Champions submod and it worked perfectly. If you did not install it I suggest you try...

[Chevalier IX]

I will concede that even in the lore when there is a descriptor of the armies at war there are pikes and halberds working in unison,the halberds typically behind the pikes so as to enact the advantage over the stymied enemy in the fore that cant pass the pikes...but...that being said i am still quiete successful gamewise using the pikes alone,although as of late they are my pinning unit and then i hit the foe from the side or flanks with swords,or even other pikes

[Valiant Champion]

I'm using 1.01. I don't have 1.02. I have the files on my computer but I want to wait for them to clear some of the bugs first...

Well that explains it. My pike fix was only included in version 1.02 by Islendil. If you don't want version 1.02 yet I suggest you try my EDU submod.

[Vaz]

Valiant Champion, playing as the units you are trying to showcase isn't the best way to use them - you can continually make tweaks as and when the situation requires it. As the AI get's negative bonuses on all but Very Hard (even without the charge bonus, I win by leaving vanilla Peasants versus vanilla Spear Militia on Hard), or so it seems, try putting them as Very Hard, and using units like Chosen with the tricks that a player can use. For example - use Marauders to remove the pikewall, and when they switch to swords/follow the retreating Marauders, slam home Knights/Mounted Bodyguards.

[Valiant Champion]

Its not a tweak, its a fix. The spacing mod works. Try my version 1.02 EDU sub mod and tell me that pikes arent working right. . Keep in mind as always that pike units need to prevent wrap of their flanks when possible to be successful.

Even pikes in vanilla COW 1.02 seem to work perfect for me. I wouldnt say too powerful but in my new submod I might actually say they could be interpreted as overpowered.

Battle difficulty is not like in Rome, Shogun or VI. Battle difficulty affects both AI and human equally regardless of what the setting is. Very hard increase fatigue and morale instablity (unit responds to negative effects quicker) The AI can keep tabs on these things far better than a human player when playing large battles.

On very hard ,The human player and AI ,can't just run their units all over the map and than throw them up against fresh, ordered troops. You have to walk your units a lot and rotate them in and out of a fight to allow them to rest when possible.

It gives the AI a personality you might say in that it will maneuvre its units more wisely to protect morale and stamina of units.

Please research battle difficulty for MTW2. There are no negative bonuses against the AI on battle difficulty.

Which by the way I play my custom battles on very hard.

, I win by leaving vanilla Peasants versus vanilla Spear Militia on Hard), or so it seems, .

You do realize that spearmen in MTW2 have the spear attribute which kills their attack versus infantry don't you? Also peasant balancing is a known issue that used to be horrid before the shield bug was fixed. At one time many were using peasants in MP before the later versions of the game came out.

[Vaz]

Peasant have spears attribute.