On unit rosters and buildings

[Steelforce77]

Well to start off i have to give this mod every bit of praise it deserves it really is great but a few things that are bothering me are that races like chaos and sylvania have 'empire' units, i understand why theyre there but couldnt u rename them to something like 'Sylvanian Swordsmen' of 'Chaos Swordsmen'? (If u cannot can someone tell me how?) And i notice that few armies have alot of standard troops, when you look at the roster you see about six line troops and the rest is just dogs of war, shouldn't there be more troops that arent mercenaries? And for chaos, why is it that Tzeench can take Khorne chosen, and daemonettes, and Nurgle Knights? It seems like chaos undivided might be able to take chosen and stuff like furies, but the individual gods should be more centered on their own units.

Buildings: Why is it that factions nowhere near water can build ports? And races that cannot build cannons have cannon shops? Just found this wierd.

Oh and not really anything to do with unit names and recruitment and stuff but the unit cards are so croweded its hard to see the actual unit, can u take away the faction symbol in the background?
Oh, and for anyone who happens to know, how do u alter unit names and stats?

[cedric37]

For the faction thing i agree with you and posted quite the same report in the balancing post somewhere there in this forum
Maybe this should make its way to the suggestions thread too

[Revan The Great]

Well to start off i have to give this mod every bit of praise it deserves it really is great but a few things that are bothering me are that races like chaos and sylvania have 'empire' units, i understand why theyre there but couldnt u rename them to something like 'Sylvanian Swordsmen' of 'Chaos Swordsmen'? (If u cannot can someone tell me how?)

In the case of Sylvania, they actually are 'Empire Swordsmen', since Sylvania was once a province of the Empire and simply broke away, they still retain some of their old military tradition and such. Chaos is similar in that their 'Empire Swordsmen' are supposed to be existing Imperial regiments that they have 'corrupted' to serve the Chaos Gods.

So really, the 'Empire Swordsmen' of Sylvania and the Chaos factions are supposed to be just like their 'good guy' counterparts, and represent Imperial legions that have changed allegiances, or were raised and organized along the same lines as the troops of, say, Altdorf or Ostland. Therefore, making around eight or ten new units of 'Sylvanian Swordsmen, Sylvanian Halberdiers' and 'Chaos Spearmen, and Chaos Swordsmen' would only waste unit slots and is really unnecessary.

And i notice that few armies have alot of standard troops, when you look at the roster you see about six line troops and the rest is just dogs of war, shouldn't there be more troops that arent mercenaries? And for chaos, why is it that Tzeench can take Khorne chosen, and daemonettes, and Nurgle Knights? It seems like chaos undivided might be able to take chosen and stuff like furies, but the individual gods should be more centered on their own units.

This is, lore-wise, accurate. The Empire has a good all around soldier for all types of unit representation, be it a halberdier, a swordsmen, or anything else with each faction getting a bonus to one of those unit types (Ostland Spearmen, Averland Heavy Halberdiers). In comparison to 'vanilla' Medieval 2 - Total War you've got the same thing as any other faction like Denmark or England, this mod has just cut out the 'militia'-unit types which tended to bulk up the roster. You have to consider many of those 'Dogs of War' soldiers as, infact, Imperial troops. For example the Deaths Head regiment of Ostermark, or the Helhunters Redeemers (sp?) of Stirland are considered 'Dogs of War' but are actually units virtually unique to one faction and are only recruitable by the Empire, the same goes with the eight or ten mercenary bands like Pirazzo's Lost Legion and the Alatani Fellowship that can be recruited from time to time.

Looked at from that perspective, the unit roster for Empire isn't really that small. I'm actually really happy with the way Imperial Armies are represented. Everything is tough, nothing is something where you'd say 'eh that unit sucks', and you have something for every occasion.

Buildings: Why is it that factions nowhere near water can build ports? And races that cannot build cannons have cannon shops? Just found this wierd.

Well taking away a faction's ability to build ports seems silly to me, even if they're nowhere near water. What if that faction, through arduous journey, is finally able to expand to one of the coastlines? It's not unreasonable to expect them to think about maybe building a port and even starting to create a fleet, in that situation. I can't think of a race off hand that can't build cannons, but indeed that would seem weird, I think.

Oh and not really anything to do with unit names and recruitment and stuff but the unit cards are so croweded its hard to see the actual unit, can u take away the faction symbol in the background?
Oh, and for anyone who happens to know, how do u alter unit names and stats?

You need to really poke around the files of the game yourself to get acquainted with them, but it would be in c:/program files/sega/medieval 2 - total war/mods/teutons/data/descr_units I believe, though that path changes based on where you might have installed the game and/or mod. I'll assume you have the basic proficiency in computers to figure it out though

[Ozzmosis]

In my campaign as Nurgle, I noticed that after taking out Tzeentch and Khorne, Some of my generals started to get "Temptresses" as bodyguards. I understand that Temptresses are meant to be Slaanesh units, not to mention that it looks really wierd having all those pink and purlple women riding what look like seahorse/chicken hybrids with one fat green guy in full armour looking menacing and riding one of them. They are also classed as "light Cavalry" which don't really make for very effective bodyguards due to low defence.

[Steelforce77]

@Revan: I understand that the dogs of war are important they just seem a little, much. And i never said ports should be removed from a faction, simply from territories not near water, like the Sylvanians who have the option but there is no body of water nearby? Its just confusing and a bug, and as for the files i have in fact changed them to suit my needs i just find it wierd how Chaos is still sporting 'Empire Swordsmen', and how it can field daemons of other gods. However, while poking through the files i came across 2 things of interest, stats for a Daemon Prince and Chaos hounds, new units? we shall see...

[Revan The Great]

Ports without water? Now that is weird, I'll agree. I haven't encountered it, so maybe that was just funky in your install? The only thing I can think of is that maybe you can build ports on that big lake south of Sylvania, sandwiched between the large Dwarf province and Night Goblin province whose names escape me but no doubt involve 'Karak'. If that's the case then I actually kind of like the idea of mini ports like that, with small ships providing ferry surfaces to soldiers so they can move across the lake quickly rather than having to march around it.

And concerning your remaining fears about the Chaos faction using 'Empire Swordsmen', I assure you that the intent is that they are infact Imperial citizens (or former Imperial citizens) conscripted by Chaos Warlords, or more likely existing regiments corrupted by warlords to serve the evil powers of chaos which, lorewise, are rather similar to the 'Dark Side' in Star Wars as far as their ability to influence people and change behavior/loyalties is concerned. It adds quite a bit of realism to the game, and while it might be more accurate to make a new unit with the same stats and appearance (minus a few cosmetic changes like an eight pointed star branded on their foreheads) and call it 'Corrupted Empire Swordsmen', that'd just be a bit of a time and resources sink without any real purpose besides a very, very tiny one.

[Steelforce77]

hmm...corrupted empire swordsmen...that does sound nice. Thank you revan; as of now i know what to call the chaos imperial units.
But in regards to the unit cards for all factions, am i the only one who has the tiniest bit of trouble seeing how many troops are in a regiment? Hopefully they will alter this later and has anyone mentioned when the patch will be released?

[Revan The Great]

Some factions have poor choices for their backgrounds so, yes, it is difficult to sometimes see how many people are in a unit, or the unit's stats, or the after battle reports. Some of them at least are perfectly fine, but you're correct it's an issue that should probably be addressed.

[Ethien]

There are in fact locations where you can build docks, and there is no body of water linked to the city as was mentioned above. I also encountered the issue with being able to build a cannon foundry, but the faction itself being incapable of building cannons.

While the corrupted Imperial troops does exist, it really isn't something you see in the lore in large numbers. Through reading countless lore supplementary books, rule books, and even novels, I don't see evidence, or a clue leading to the idea that entire regiments would fight with Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy. The Norse despise all that is weak, and they consider the men of Kislev, the Empire, and elsewhere, to be weak. While humans do work with Chaos, you do not see them outside of cults or other individual groups within the Empire, attempting to undermine their authority, summon demons, corrupt nobles, and otherwise. While Chaos is the theme for the north, there are also the individual tribes of the Norse who have their own prejudices.

I just checked the rule book for the Vampire Counts, and I didn't see one human unit mentioned. While it may have once been a former province of the Empire, it is led by a Vampire Count, who when mentioned, leads his undead themed army.

The idea of entire Imperial regiments being corrupted is best saved for where its commonly seen, and that would be Warhammer 40,000, rather than the Fantasy counterpart. In what I've read, and I'm being led to believe, that while there are numerous cults, and corruption within the Empire, you won't be seeing the "weak men" of the Empire fighting with the Norse, who without a single doubt, hate all of those who dwell south of them.

[♔DoomBunny666♔]

While the corrupted Imperial troops does exist, it really isn't something you see in the lore in large numbers. Through reading countless lore supplementary books, rule books, and even novels, I don't see evidence, or a clue leading to the idea that entire regiments would fight with Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy. The Norse despise all that is weak, and they consider the men of Kislev, the Empire, and elsewhere, to be weak. While humans do work with Chaos, you do not see them outside of cults or other individual groups within the Empire, attempting to undermine their authority, summon demons, corrupt nobles, and otherwise. While Chaos is the theme for the north, there are also the individual tribes of the Norse who have their own prejudices.

The Norse are just one of the tribes of the Chaos wastes, and Chaos isnt picky about who serves it as long as it is furthering their aims...

Also, the Norse themselves are humans...

I just checked the rule book for the Vampire Counts, and I didn't see one human unit mentioned. While it may have once been a former province of the Empire, it is led by a Vampire Count, who when mentioned, leads his undead themed army.

Okay so if something is not mentioned in the army book it must not exist for that faction?

Read the Vampire Lore or read the 6th edition Counts book...

Vlad didnt care if his servants were living or undead...

[Vaz]

The Norse aren't a chaos tribe in the wastes. They inhabit Norsca, but worship Chaos. They aren't part of the Hung (Khornate), Kurgan or Dolmans (Tzeentch) - I don't know the Nurgle or Slaaneshi off heart - tribes, instead they are a collection of fishing villages and settlements which house raiders to the southern countries.

They are what the Kislevites call Kyazak, which simply means "Raider(s)".

@ Ethien, in the Storm of Chaos campaign source book, the Sylvanian Vampire Counts were able to recruit Empire Levy and Militia to some extent. No knightly orders etc (White Wolves + Hel Fen doesn't sit too well, I don't think ;D), but they had the basics.

[Steelforce77]

For sylvania i could see the counts as having living troops but i think there should be a moment where Sylvania converts from a living faction to a dead one where their roster delves more into the dead than the living. And im not that familiar with the fluff but i agree that the most badass troops in the game wouldnt be too keen on fighting with empire units, i mean, a chaos guy might accidentally trip on them, or accidently eat their souls...

[Scipio praeditus]

For sylvania i could see the counts as having living troops but i think there should be a moment where Sylvania converts from a living faction to a dead one where their roster delves more into the dead than the living. And im not that familiar with the fluff but i agree that the most badass troops in the game wouldnt be too keen on fighting with empire units, i mean, a chaos guy might accidentally trip on them, or accidently eat their souls...

I believe both the Chaos and the Silvanian roleplaying experience can benefit enormously from being able to recruit empire troops.

For the chaos campaign this would mostly be in the late campaign, when their armies have penetrated so far into the empire that the lore prescribes the gradual dissipation of deamons because of a lack of magical energy, which is abundant in the wastes.
The human troops which are corrupted by this time would fill in the gaps that the lack of deamons leaves.
Even with a major chaos storm the point where the deamons would start to fade should be somewhere near the Kislevite border with the empire.

For the Silvanian campaign it should be noted that the vampire counts have at some times masqueraded as human rulers, making the Imperials believe that vampires where extinct, well most of them anyway.
I'm not sure what the situation is in the period depicted by this mod, but it could be fun (roleplaying wise) to emulate said subterfuge untill the time is right and, at the players discretion, their true colours are shown.

[Vaz]

The Chaos Forces are seeking to increase the area covered by the advancement of the chaos wastes, it doesn't make sense that the more powerful chaos get the less daemons available - re second war against chaos.

[Scipio praeditus]

The Chaos Forces are seeking to increase the area covered by the advancement of the chaos wastes, it doesn't make sense that the more powerful chaos get the less daemons available - re second war against chaos.

Having conquered more terrain doesn't necessarily mean that they are more powerfull, just that their forces are stretched out more.
It would still take time to cover the entire old world with chaos waste, it is not like the waste marches along with the chaos army, never has anyway.
It should take hundreds of years to cover the Empire with waste unless the paths of the old ones would come into play somehow (or unless morrslieb falls out of the sky), and it is up to the player to decide if he/she wants such an occurance to have taken place.
Personally I would stick with the more conventional and more challenging setting of a finite operating theater for deamons.

[Ethien]

@Doom

Yes, the Norse are humans themselves but does that singular common rationale unite any people? You have to remember what Chaos is, and like Vaz said, the Norscans are a separate people on a different piece of land, who worship Chaos like the Empire who worships various deities.

Also, yes, if its not mentioned, then I rather believe it doesn't exist rather than go off conjecture. "Well that doesn't mean they couldn't have them", and that can apply to any faction if its not mentioned. Even if they are able to be recruited, then I wouldn't mind an altered form that would fit the Sylvanian scheme. It doesn't bug me much either way, at least for Sylvania.

@Vaz

I wasn't aware they were able to recruit basic units like that.

@Scipio

I believe the mod is based during the period for Storm of Chaos.

[Scipio praeditus]

@Scipio

I believe the mod is based during the period for Storm of Chaos.

I am aware of that, but I have no knowledge regarding what the nature of the relation of Silvania (or more precisely the vampire counts) was towards the empire.
Meaning, where they hiding their vampiric identity at that time, or where they open about their nature and in conflict with the Empire?

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

During the Storm of Chaos Campaign the Vampires attacked any chaos army moving through their lands.

Manfred von Carstein himself was stirred from his deathly slumbering, ruler of all Sylvania and most deadly of all the Vampire counts. He resolved to crush this invasion of his ancestral lands. Then, his eyes would turn westwards, to the Empire again.

[Vaz]

Having conquered more terrain doesn't necessarily mean that they are more powerfull

With Chaos is does.

What happened in the Storm of Chaos was that Surtha Lenk during Spring Driving sent his horde south to sow terror and destruction- where they destroyed much of the Northern Empire and Ravaged the cities of Kislev. Then, with the path prepared, Archaon launched his attack following that, where they went all the way to Middenheim. However, the Chaos Wastes advanced, and Be'lakor, the First Daemon Prince, soon managed to coalesce this advancing of the Wastes into giving him the power to overthrow the shackles that Tzeentch placed on him once more, and now lead his Daemonic Horde south.

EVERYTHING points to more land = advancing Chaos Wastes.

It also happened at Praag 200 Years before, and during the First and Second Wars

[Scipio praeditus]

EVERYTHING points to more land = advancing Chaos Wastes.

It also happened at Praag 200 Years before, and during the First and Second Wars

Sure, but not to the point that the entire empire would be covered in chaos waste, Kislev maybe, but unless the storm lasts a hundred years or more that is it.
The waste does not advance at the pace of the marching armies, otherwise middenheim would already be inside the waste which clearly is not the case.
Sure there have always been people who don't like to follow the lore because of the restrictions it poses, and just for the fun of it want to use deamons in Imperial territory, but that does not count as evidence, even if some GW guys did it.

As I said, there are ways in which the lore would facilitate such a deamon incursion, it just isn't that likely and takes some imagination on the players part.

All I'm saying is that personally I would and will stick with the more challenging and authentic setting of restricted areas for deamons.
I'm certainly not saying that there should be an actual invisible border in the game that is impassable for deamons.
If you want tzeentch to pull morrslieb out of the sky for you, or the paths to flood the world with chaos filth, be my guest.