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Thread: How cold were the winters in the 870s in Hordaland?

  1. #1
    danova's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default How cold were the winters in the 870s in Hordaland?

    Quote Originally Posted by danova View Post



    Jarldom of Hordaland
    Viking Culture


    Hordaland is one of the larger Jarldoms of Norway, led by the fierce warrior King Eirik.

    While there are many strong Jarldoms in Norway, few can claim to be as strong or as disciplined as the Jarldom of Hordaland. Here men cling to traditions of the past, never forgetting the lessons they've learned and morales they've been taught.

    Winters are harsh and the sea is unforgiving, and because of this even daily life is dangerous. This has led many men to turn away from their old means of supporting themselves. Why should a man risk death for a small catch at sea, when he can take the same risk to raid and pillage?

    King Eirik must now decide. Will he take up the axe and sail accross the sea, or will face down the other Jarldoms of Norway and make himself a king?


    Stengths: Strong melee infantry and quality training
    Weaknesses: Weak infrastructure and little cavalry

    Goal: Conquer all of Norway, destroy Vestfold, Alba, and Northumbria, and conquer Iceland.


    .
    Last edited by danova; December 29, 2009 at 02:27 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    Quote Originally Posted by danova View Post





    Winters are harsh and the sea is unforgiving, and because of this even daily life is dangerous.
    Hordaland has a very mild climate compared with the rest of Norway. The gulf stream keeps the fjords ice free and the climate in general is warm. The lowest recorded temprature ever is -10, while the rest of the country such as in the innlands the temprature reach as low as -30 and often even lower. The average temprature in winter time is 0 degrees, often warmer.

    Just saying, since it would be like claiming that the north pole is hot.
    lol

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    Just thought I'd point this out:

    "The lowest recorded temprature ever is -10"

    Some people would say that is extremely cold, Also Hordaland is not the only area that is part of the Hordaland faction, it represents the loose alliance of Jarls and minor kings that allied against Harald Fairhair.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    But -10 is not the norm. In any case, the western parts of Norway has very mild climate because of the gulf stream, so by definition it is wrong and misleading to say the climate is harsh. If a region with mild climate has harsh winters, how would you describe the innlands that has 10 times colder weather?

    Sorry for the nitpicking, but as a Norwegian, the description burns my eyes.
    lol

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    Right, but that's why it says "winters are harsh". We're not saying Hordaland is specifically more harsh than the rest of Norway but it is more harsh than most of Europe. Again, Hordaland doesn't just encompass coastal Western Norway. Norway as a country happens to have much older winters than most of England and Europe.

    I have attached an image with average winter temperatures in europe. As you can see most of England and Ireland fall within either the 10 to 15 or 20 to 25 area while Norway has only a small portion in the 10 to 15 while the rest is 0 to 5 or -5 to -10 and some is -20 to -15.

    WE don't mean to offend, but please understand that it isn't inaccurate to describe these temperatures as "harsh" when compared to the rest of Europe, especially when considering the fact that this is the latter part of the Dark Age when people have very little to keep themselves healthy and warm. It is only meant to describe the hardiness of the Norwegian people who have to live daily life in a more difficult environment than most.
    Last edited by GatorMarine1833; December 02, 2009 at 12:55 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    You seem to forget about the medieval warm period and that the climate was much much warmer back then, than it is now. Further more, to simply say that 'its colder than most of Europe' is also misleading. As huge mountain areas in france, Italy, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and so on is even colder than western Norway.

    On top of that, to say that winters are harsh because 'its colder than other places', would be as if I were to say that summers in England are scorhing hot because its warmer than Norway. It just doesn't compute.

    Best thing to do would be to save the 'harsh winters' description for a faction that really had harsh winters, as Hardaland simply does not have harsh winters. The waters are even ice free during winter time, because the climate there is mild.
    lol

  7. #7
    Horsa's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    The waters are even ice free during winter time, because the climate there is mild.
    I'll think you'll find that it is not mild.

    Just because Hordaland is warmer than other areas of Norway does not make it mild. I would describe France/Southern England as being mild. Hordaland is quite cold, just because it isn't as cold, doesn't mean it isn't cold.

    I can see where you are coming from. But a winter in Hordaland would still be harsh.

  8. #8

    Default How cold were the winters in the 870s in Hordaland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Víkingr View Post
    Just because Hordaland is warmer than other areas of Norway does not make it mild. I would describe France/Southern England as being mild. Hordaland is quite cold, just because it isn't as cold, doesn't mean it isn't cold.

    I can see where you are coming from. But a winter in Hordaland would still be harsh.
    Hehe incoming nitpicking :

    But if you look at the definition of harsh, Hordaland would still not be harsh. The Gulf Stream makes the climate mild. and France is everything from mediterranian to cold in higher areas such as the alps. Further more, the medieval warm period would make the climate in this mod mild, if not warm.
    lol

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    OK, well I can see your opinion won't be changed, but neither will our description. As I have said the area that Hordaland encompasses includes more inland portions of Norway and it doesn't only include the western coast of Norway.

    Norway's winters, when compared to most of europe especially England and Ireland are harsh.

    You are also forgetting that there was a cold period in Europe during the latter part of the Dark Age from approx. 600 AD to 900 AD. This includes the start date of our mod, 865 AD.

    http://ff.org/centers/csspp/library/...06-09/what.htm

    If you don't want to listen to temperature maps and scientifically proven evidence than I am afraid that you will never be convinced of this. I hope you will find other aspects of out mod more acceptable.

    Unfortunately the fact that Norway's winters would have been some of the harshest winters in inhabited Europe isn't really up for debate, especially considering the timeframe that this mod takes place.

    Here's a graph with average temperatures in europe based on years.
    Last edited by GatorMarine1833; December 03, 2009 at 08:57 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    Quote Originally Posted by GatorMarine1833 View Post

    If you don't want to listen to temperature maps and scientifically proven evidence than I am afraid that you will never be convinced of this.

    Unfortunately the fact that Norway's winters would have been some of the harshest winters in inhabited Europe isn't really up for debate, especially considering the timeframe that this mod takes place.

    Please Gator, dont try to turn this into me not wanting to listen to scientific evidence. I have never said that winters in Norway is not more cold than other places, I'm saying winters in Hordaland is NOT more harsh. In fact, they are mild. Not jyust compared with the rest of Norway, but winters in Hordaland are on pair with the ones in the UK and the rest of central Europe.

    Perhaps it would be better if you had first hand experience.
    lol

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    That's some pretty harsh weather imo. but then again, I'm from southern california lol

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    Quote Originally Posted by tristram1 View Post
    That's some pretty harsh weather imo. but then again, I'm from southern california lol

    Ah, but you dont have 'winter'!
    lol

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    Look, I get what you are saying, I am not disputing that the direct area Hordaland is any more or less harsh than central England (look at the first map, they are about the same), but you need to understand that the Hordaland faction contains much more than that area.

    During this period Europe was colder than it is now, combine that with the fact that this faction contains inland parts of Norway and the fact that it was much more difficult to stay warm in the Dark Age (no heaters or modern clothing for warmth) and you will see that winter is a harsh time.

    Some would say that during this period winter almost anywhere that snows would be harsh. Daily life was difficult in most parts of Europe, especially Scandinavia.

    Again, this statement in the description isn't saying that the area of Hordaland is colder than anywhere else. You have to remember that in this mod Vestfold is setup to soon be the future "Norway" and the Hordaland faction is the alliance of Jarls and Petty Kings that are resisting. So Hordaland is not just Hordaland.

    This statement is in reference to the difficulty of daily life in this period, especially in Norway, it is meant to inspire the player to get up and get exploring, alot of these Jarls who stood against Harald Fairhair leave Norway for Scottish/English islands andthey also leave for Iceland. In game you will see the AI for Hordaland start to expand to these islands early on, so please try to understand what I am saying.

    Winter anywhere in northern Europe would be harsh in this period for the common folk, Hordaland is no exception, especially when considering that the Hordaland faction contains other parts of Norway, and when considering that the area affected by the Gulf Stream is not that large (which really is irrelevant because again, any snow covered winter would be harsh). Just like how "the seas are unforgiving" is a sort of generic statement describing how in general work at sea is difficult and dangerous, "winters are harsh" only describes how winter is difficult and harsh in general for the common person.

    I know how frustrating this can be for you, I just moved out of San Diego, California where the weather stays between 50 and 75 the whole year. I would be frustrated if someone said that San Diego's summers were blazing hot, but I'd also understand if someone were to explain that when they talk about San Diego they are referencing the entire county and the surrounding counties (which do get very hot).

    This is the last thing I will add to this debate, I think I've made my point quite clear (despite my terrible grammar ), take it or leave it, but if you really don't like it you can change the faction description when we release the mod.

  14. #14
    Ruckulf's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    Well said Gator.

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    Aiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, I fold.
    lol

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    alright, just to add a little more fire

    http://veimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/17663/...a_M2002074.jpg

    As can be witnessed by this satelite image. the gulf strea hits western Norway and the winters are not harsh.
    lol

  17. #17

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    alright, just to add a little more fire

    http://veimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/17663/...a_M2002074.jpg

    As can be witnessed by this satelite image. the gulf strea hits western Norway and the winters are not harsh.
    are you seriously bringing this up again? I'm sure the developers have more important things to do than than argue semantics with you.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    Quote Originally Posted by tristram1 View Post
    are you seriously bringing this up again? I'm sure the developers have more important things to do than than argue semantics with you.

    Welcome to the party, though you are late.
    As can be seen, the coast is without snow as the gulf stream warms. I'm right, and you are wrong. What you call semantics, I call facts.
    So in conclusion, anyone with any knoweldge about western Norway will cringe when they read the description of Hordaland, in the same way anyone with any knowledge about Denmark would cringe if people were to describe Denmark as mountainous.

    I simply dont see why it would be so hard to stick with facts?
    Last edited by Haakon; December 28, 2009 at 05:41 AM.
    lol

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    Quote Originally Posted by GatorMarine1833 View Post
    Look, I get what you are saying, I am not disputing that the direct area Hordaland is any more or less harsh than central England (look at the first map, they are about the same), but you need to understand that the Hordaland faction contains much more than that area.

    During this period Europe was colder than it is now, combine that with the fact that this faction contains inland parts of Norway and the fact that it was much more difficult to stay warm in the Dark Age (no heaters or modern clothing for warmth) and you will see that winter is a harsh time.

    Winter anywhere in northern Europe would be harsh in this period for the common folk, Hordaland is no exception, especially when considering that the Hordaland faction contains other parts of Norway, and when considering that the area affected by the Gulf Stream is not that large (which really is irrelevant because again, any snow covered winter would be harsh). Just like how "the seas are unforgiving" is a sort of generic statement describing how in general work at sea is difficult and dangerous, "winters are harsh" only describes how winter is difficult and harsh in general for the common person.
    Did you bother reading?

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Last Kingdom - FACTION PREVIEW / HORDALAND ***new content***

    First of all, promising looking mod. The units and factions are very cool. I look forward to play the viking factions(big viking fan!). Second, I think Haakon is actually right about the winter climate of the west coast of Norway. It's generally mild, wet and winty due to its close situation to the Gulf Stream. So is the climate of my country Denmark for the same reason. And the climate was actually a bit colder in the viking era than today, so shouldn't that be reflected in the mod? It's called the medieval warm period.
    Well, enough said about that. I look very much forward to play your promising looking mod

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