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Thread: OT: Book Discussion - MAY INCLUDE SPOILERS

  1. #1

    Default Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    I am currently reading my way through the series, I am about 1/3 of the way through A Storm of Swords so if you are to share information please be sensitive to spoilers. I haven't found any forums to discuss the actual books so I thought I'd post this here to see if people are interested in


    So I have come the realization that the Starks are politically stupid. They are honorable to a fault, I'll give them that, but almost every single one of their moves from the day that Ned left Winterfell has been full of misteps and miscalculations leading ulitmately to the predicament they find themselves in now. Let me review the story to back up my claim, I will do it by book so as to allow those who haven't completed the books to only go as far as they care to.


    A Game of Thrones.

    **WARNING SPOILERS AHEAD***



    Let’s discuss the stupid decisions starting from the top:

    Ned:
    - He finally had evidence of Cersei's and Jaime's incest but didn't tell Robert on his deathbed, ultimately dooming himself.
    - He had the opportunity to get rid of Cersei and waited around for her to leave, he even told her about his plans and gave her ample time to plot his demise behind the scenes the whole time.
    - He never built up support and a large following so as to protect himself from treachery, instead relied on Littlefinger at the last second only to be betrayed.

    Catelyn
    - The whole saga of kidnapping Tyrion and setting off the war with the Lannisters, was absolutely short-sighted and no thought out.
    - She never needed to leave Winterfell in the first place, she could have sent someone she trusted or one of her sons.

    Sansa
    - Just all around stupid and naïve, I don't even know where to begin, sigh.



    A Clash of Kings


    **WARNING SPOILERS AHEAD***



    Not much in this book I can point to really, Robb played things quite well other than the blunder of sending Theon as his envoy. Catelyn's visit to Renly was disastrous, but that was unlucky there was an opportunity there to form an alliance with House Tyrell if she didn't happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. I gotta give Bran and Rickon some credit for playing it right and hiding where no one suspected them. Sansa kept up her usual naivete but not too much we can fault her on. Arya proved to be resilient and smarter than the rest of the bunch.



    A Sword of Storms



    **WARNING SPOILERS AHEAD***
    And the stupidity comes roaring back in force in the third book:

    Catelyn
    - Letting Jaime go, absolutely retarded, not much more to say other than to see how it turns out (I haven't finished the book yet, Jaime and Brienne just got captured by the Mummers). This also caused the loss of House Karstark. I think the Starks would've been better off is she just bloody stayed in Winterfell from the beginning.

    Robb
    - Marrying Jeyne, he could've just slept with her and been done with it, now he has effectively broken his alliance and I don't see how he can recover (please don’t spoil here).

    Sansa
    - You'd think after all the abuse she's taken she would be able to recognize when someone is trying to exploit her and see through the charade that House Tyrell is putting on (I just also found out Twyin plans on marrying to Tyrion but she hasn't been told yet).



    Conclusion
    In conclusion even though the Starks have been victorious in almost every battle (and you could argue that this is due mostly to Cat's Uncle anyway) they have been out maneuvred by the Lannisters politically at every turn. I think of them as simple country folk who are being out classed and out foxed by their more sophisticated (albiet incestuous and dysfunctional) urban nemesis.
    Last edited by micromegas; July 27, 2009 at 01:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Orko's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    They are not politically stupid, but they just didn't engage in enough politics to know how to act. Anyway, these are the reasons why I love Doran Martlell. He is cautious and sees the big picture. He sees everything before he acts, and every possible consequence and result it might have, and decides according to that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius
    Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    Well what is your definition of stupid? Perhaps if they haven't engaged in enough politics to know what they are doing then they should not engage in it at all. I see comparisons to Sarah Palin here, if you don't know what you're doing then don't do it.

    I had to edite my OP, I was mixing up Martell with Tyrell. But regardless the Martell's are on their way up for the wedding so I am interested in seeing what happens when they arrive. My favorite character so far is Tyrion for the same reasons you mentioned.

    One a side note, there are two things I really like about the series:
    1. The good guys don't always win as the do in your typical fantasy hero tale.
    2. I feel Westeros could reflect any Medieval kingdom quite well (with the exception of Dragons and other fantasy elements). Martin captured the feel and reality of that period very well.

    Does anyone know a forum where people can discuss the books? I did a quick internet search but found nothing, even on Martin's official site. This was the best place I could think of where people would be specifically interested in the series.

  4. #4
    Orko's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by micromegas View Post
    Well what is your definition of stupid? Perhaps if they haven't engaged in enough politics to know what they are doing then they should not engage in it at all. I see comparisons to Sarah Palin here, if you don't know what you're doing then don't do it.
    They hardly engaged in politics, but they were forced to use politics, they just didn't know that battlefield, they didn't even know they were on a battlefield!
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius
    Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    I wouldn't say they're stupid. They're just classic "white knight" naive. They have this world view that is, for the most part, pure and beloved of justice, where if you say something, you're expected to do it just as well. The world of Cersei and Littlefinger's a little bit out of sorts for someone as straightforward as Ned.


    Robb's similar to his father, but he seems to have taken a bit of the passionate streak from his mother, as evidenced by his attachment to Jeyne. As for your criticisms of Catelyn and Sansa, well... they're not really Starks. Catelyn, remember, married into a somewhat inattentive relationship with Ned, and it's become increasingly obvious that the Tullys are not the brightest folk to be around, aside from the Blackfish, who also happens to be the "black sheep" of the family and is therefore assumed to be most unlike them. Sansa, likewise, is more of a Tully than a Stark, unlike Arya, who, while retaining Stark characteristics, also shows her own malleability in her growth (this is, of course, hinted to be a similar streak that was found in her aunt).

    Of the Stark "children", Jon Snow is probably the most Stark-ish; you'll probably find out sooner or later why I say so. Robb is a mix of probably the naive/stupid parts of Cat and Ned, even though personally I like him. Sansa's mostly Tully, but I get the feeling GRRM's preparing a massive 180 Stark-pwn in the future. Arya takes after her dead aunt, and is therefore pretty much Stark through and through. Bran, with his ties to the mythical past, is something of a call-back to the Starks of the old kingdoms more than those of the new--also evinced by his name and similarity to the mythical figure of "Bran the Builder." If anything of all the Starks, expect the most greatness out of him. Rickon is too young, so we don't really know how he swings; my hope is he becomes a badass like Uncle Benjen, who was altogether very Stark-ish as well.

  6. #6
    Elmo Kill's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    I do think that the Starks are politically ignorant, because in the North they are not foolish people. Like their motto 'Winter is coming', they are very serious folk. I think if Winterfell was similar to King's Landing with all the parasites and sycophants in the court, the Starks would be much more politically clever, but the way they are brought up has no room for such things. Heck, look at little Rickon -- for a 4-year-old (I think) he is pretty damn serious. Most of the time. Well, some of the time.
    @xsillysteve your analysis of the Stark family is totally on the money. I do hate Catelyn though. For someone NOT a Stark, she seems fairly incompetent... though rather better than her sister.
    "Water sleeps, but Enemy never rests" - Murgen, Standardbearer

  7. #7

    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmo Kill View Post
    I do think that the Starks are politically ignorant, because in the North they are not foolish people. Like their motto 'Winter is coming', they are very serious folk. I think if Winterfell was similar to King's Landing with all the parasites and sycophants in the court, the Starks would be much more politically clever, but the way they are brought up has no room for such things. Heck, look at little Rickon -- for a 4-year-old (I think) he is pretty damn serious. Most of the time. Well, some of the time.
    @xsillysteve your analysis of the Stark family is totally on the money. I do hate Catelyn though. For someone NOT a Stark, she seems fairly incompetent... though rather better than her sister.
    Good point. GRRM seems delighted to paint older women as fanciful and insane, while depicting younger "girls" as far more sensible and intelligent.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    Sansa = sensible and intelligent? I'd dispute that. But yeah, any woman that seems to have given birth has lost any common sense.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by micromegas View Post
    I am currently reading my way through the series, I am about 1/3 of the way through A Storm of Swords so if you are to share information please be sensitive to spoilers. I haven't found any forums to discuss the actual books so I thought I'd post this here to see if people are interested in


    So I have come the realization that the Starks are politically stupid. They are honorable to a fault, I'll give them that, but almost every single one of their moves from the day that Ned left Winterfell has been full of misteps and miscalculations leading ulitmately to the predicament they find themselves in now. Let me review the story to back up my claim, I will do it by book so as to allow those who haven't completed the books to only go as far as they care to.
    I have read about as much as you have, and I do agree a bit with you. The Starks are not stupid, though. Before Ned left for Kings Landing, the North was the safest part in the whole realm. As a character in one of the books says: "A thirteen year old maid could have walked on the Kingsroad at night, and go unmolested" (i quoted from my mind), and also he was considered one of the greatest generals in the whold world. This series focuses on how he failed, but I think people would have had a different picture of him if it was about Ned planing and executing successful millitary campaigns under Robert- and Greyjoys Rebellion. He failed in Kings Landing because he was to honoroble to engage in the type of politics he had to use, and trusted to many.

    When it comes to Catelyn; she is not really Stark. She is still Tully. The same about Sansa, she has never had any reason to believe the world was anything but full of galant and honorbly knights, and is thus very naive. I think she got better after her fathers beheading, though.

    Robb is an idiot, and have made many faults. He married Jeyne, and got 40 (?) soldiers, and lost thousands in Karstark and Frey. It was also stupid to pardon his mother for freeing the Kingslayer, and beheading Karstark for killing two young, not-that-useful prisoners.

    Arya rocks. Jon is cool most of the time, and Arya is the second coolest character in Westeros (after Davos).

    I conclude with that Ned was not stupid, only to honoroble, Sansa and Catelyn are not really Stark, Robb is stupid, Jon is mostly cool, and Arya rocks.

    Oh, I forgot Bran and Rickon, but they haven't really done anything stupid nor smart.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    ***Spoiler Warning, If you haven't finished A Storm of Swords do NOT read on***








    I wish I knew how to use the hide buttons, but anyway

    I just read the section that was the turning point in A Storm of Swords, I won't mention it in detail here but you should know what I am talking about if you've gotten there. While I am enjoying the book and I do like the GRRM's approach of not have the protagonists win all the time like a typical fantasy book, this series has really become about one family's tragic downfall and another one's rise to power. It just so happens that the family on the short end of the stick is the we have been amorized to.






    ***More Spoilers***






    Another thing that I am struggling with in that episode is why Arya got killed so nonchalantly. I can see how the death of Robb and Catelyn is a turning point in the plot of the book, but we just spent several chapters across several books going over Arya's story only to have it end without any real relevance to the plot. IMO at the very least GRRM should have kept her with the bandits so that we could see their side of the story. I am confused by that entire turn of events (not Robb and Catelyn but Arya's part in it), I am hoping reading further on will clarify this perculiarity.




    I hope I am not ruining the plot for anyone but there doesn't seem to be anywhere else to discuss the books.
    Last edited by micromegas; August 08, 2009 at 02:05 AM.

  11. #11
    Orko's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by micromegas View Post
    Another thing that I am struggling with in that episode is why Arya got killed so nonchalantly. I can see how the death of Robb and Catelyn is a turning point in the plot of the book, but we just spent several chapters across several books going over Arya's story only to have it end without any real relevance to the plot. IMO at the very least GRRM should have kept her with the bandits so that we could see their side of the story. I am confused by that entire turn of events (not Robb and Catelyn but Arya's part in it), I am hoping reading further on will clarify this perculiarity.
    The hound didn't kill her, he hit her with his axe, and not with the sharp side.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius
    Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

  12. #12
    eatme's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    I don't agree with OP here. What you call stupid, could be called impractical. It is a matter of perspective. And GRRM creates different perspective views around major families in Westeros. Some are viewed as moral, some pointedly the opposite. So you have Starks and Lannisters as the opposites in many ways. Then ofc you have the story twists that make exceptions, like Jaime e.g. in later books.. But these are systematic exceptions that make up the character depth.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    To be perfectly honest, I think most of us not fooling around with the spoiler tags are doing a greater job of spoiling the books. Don't fret about it.

    Also, Orko's right. Arya's just knocked out. I might suggest finishing the book first before reading our replies of writing anymore.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    I've to say they are politically retarded, look at some of the stuff they pull of, but there is also a reason why they are like this. It's because of their honor doesn't allow them doing some stuff the right way. They have to much honor to win political games.

    Look at Robb won all of his battles but lost his head lol

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    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    **spoilers?**

    Anyway... Robb's (or was) a total retard when it comes to politics. Even Sansa wouldn't be that stupid. Well at least new Sansa. The Knight of Flowers wouldn't be that stupid. But he'd probably just turn the girl down for his sister anyway... Also I think Ned just felt like dying. His daughters were basically captives and y McCrabpants would have killed him anyway. Plus his best friend just died.

    Bran and Rickon pulled a smart one, but I believe that it was either Bran or that Wildling's idea, so it may not count.
    Jon had taken Donal and Benjen’s advice to heart: Sam may be fat and pathetic, but he is still a member of the watch, and one of the few black brothers who isn't a rapist or thief. (out of context, this sounds ridiculously racist)
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    lunch's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by micromegas View Post
    ***Spoiler Warning, If you haven't finished A Storm of Swords do NOT read on***








    I wish I knew how to use the hide buttons, but anyway

    I just read the section that was the turning point in A Storm of Swords, I won't mention it in detail here but you should know what I am talking about if you've gotten there. While I am enjoying the book and I do like the GRRM's approach of not have the protagonists win all the time like a typical fantasy book, this series has really become about one family's tragic downfall and another one's rise to power. It just so happens that the family on the short end of the stick is the we have been amorized to.






    ***More Spoilers***






    Another thing that I am struggling with in that episode is why Arya got killed so nonchalantly. I can see how the death of Robb and Catelyn is a turning point in the plot of the book, but we just spent several chapters across several books going over Arya's story only to have it end without any real relevance to the plot. IMO at the very least GRRM should have kept her with the bandits so that we could see their side of the story. I am confused by that entire turn of events (not Robb and Catelyn but Arya's part in it), I am hoping reading further on will clarify this perculiarity.




    I hope I am not ruining the plot for anyone but there doesn't seem to be anywhere else to discuss the books.
    Hehe, it's kinda funny that you say don't read on if you have not FINISHED A Storm of Swords, when you obviously haven't done so yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by karo View Post
    I've to say they are politically retarded, look at some of the stuff they pull of, but there is also a reason why they are like this. It's because of their honor doesn't allow them doing some stuff the right way. They have to much honor to win political games.

    Look at Robb won all of his battles but lost his head lol
    No, they are just not good at the kind of politics that the Lannisters performed. Ned ruled the North better than any of the other Lords ruled their parts of Westeros (might be Jon Arryn ruled the Vale as good as Ned ruled the North, but after Roberts Rebellion he spent his time in King's Landing).

    Robb couldn't really know that Frey would break all guest rights, but then again; I suppose the Freys are even more treacherous than the Lannisters.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    These books remind me of a Shakespearean Tragedy in some sense. What do you guys think about the comparisons?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    Possibly. Bits of it do have that feel, where all the characters are stumbling around in the figurative dark and the audience can just about see what's about to go wrong

    "Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne."

  19. #19
    eatme's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    Well it is the same if you gonna compare Reader's Digest with a Comics book, they do have a semblance (both are funny=). GRRM has nothing from Shakespeare's style. The former has some dark humour though.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Book Discussion: Are the Starks Stupid?

    I don't mean from the perspective of style, certainly we can't compare Shakespeare to GRRM. But rather from the perspective of how we can view the Stark family's story in the greater context of the series.

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