Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

[Ybbon]

Of course promises are cheap, but only awarding citizenship based on concrete achievements is what causes the rightful charges of elitism and raising the bar too high, to be levelled at the Curia. Sometimes we need to push the boundaries of what we accept and give people a chance to show their mettle. We will not be able to award any RTW2 modding citizenships for what 2 years probably so do we put aside promising candidates for 2 years? No give it to them, now, give them a reason to stay and inspire others.

[Bethencourt]

The thing is that I like to be charged of that kind of elitism it that is the case. The proces now is designed to evaluate achievements, in my opinion the level of the bar depends in the case (applicant work sympathy), the members of the CdC and how the people expressing their opinion about it would have expected to be evalutated themselves.

How would promises would be evaluated? I think for that you have reputation, even "most promissing mod or modder award". I have always seen the CdC citizenry proces, even with its variability, much more fair than the rest of the motivational items of the site when evaluating your commitment to TWC.

[Leonidas The Lion]

Citizenship is not a motivational ploy its an acknowledgement of one's contributions to the site. You mod because you want to, not so that you can get citizenship. There is a reason very few modders actually care about the Curia.

[Bethencourt]

For me it is motivational, recognition is one of the universal motivations. Once you get it, and you cannot get it twice, it ends there and it is a motivation related to TWC not the CVRIA. The CVRIA has a problem of motivation itself. What is the CVRIA for? how is it useful once you become a citizen? Is it more important for modders than modding? have they got time for both? Modding is very time consuming and many people does not have much time to spend in all TWC activity. Certainly while I write here I am not adding new equipment to another of my mod units.

[Ngugi]

Citizenship is not a motivational ploy its an acknowledgement of one's contributions to the site. You mod because you want to, not so that you can get citizenship. There is a reason very few modders actually care about the Curia.

Share this perception; as well for those who is here just to help others out or debate etc.

And now if a member participate TWC for the aim to gain citizenship, and then that is achived trough constructive contributions - then it will only an improvment for TWC as a whole.

[Bethencourt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow'...archy_of_needs

This theory is a bit old but basically valid.

The citizenship is in the esteem level.

[Omnipotent-Q]

I do not agree with this vision. Many people has worked on playable things and are not going all over the place promissing things they do not know how to do or make it work. But people promisssing fantastic things get the attention and even the awards and this is discouraging for the serious hard worker modders. If we do not accept sometimes not useful work because it has not been published so it is useful for everyone visiting the site, why would we accept it randomly?

For example, so many times I have seen people announcing they are going to make ships models, even aircrafts and at the minute they receive a quite big lot of visits, reputation and even are proposed for an award, and receive them. And what happens then? In few months the thread is abandoned.

There is people anouncing mods for Rome II.

I would only accept this is if there is proof of work. Promissing is very cheap.

It's not a promise though is it. He says he'll be involved modding Rome II but that's besides the point.

Everyone applies to be a citizen. Not an Artifex, Civitate or Citizen brand. But to be a citizen. If you apply as a debater more consideration goes toward debating, and generally helping other members out. In this case, there is seemingly no weight given to him helping other members with something very new for Total War. There's no weight given to the example he is setting in seeing what is possible with campaign map re-processing. He would represent citizenship with an Artifex badge quite well do you not think? That's more than enough - setting a good example. You can't expect every citizen to be in the Curia, debating nonsensical theories on "what is citizenship? hmmpvvv" all the time.

There is a growing propensity to set the bar too high, when the likes of Opifex and Phalera are defined constitutionally as awards. Citizenship isn't an award. Until it's listed under Community Awards in the constitution, it's not an award. It's a total myth that it is and the Curia will never be representative or useful if you're only looking to give citizenship to people at the tail end of their contributions to the community.

Having a bit of foresight is not a big ask is it? Is it so difficult to spot talented people on TWC these days? As someone looking to patronize, I can tell you it's difficult right now. Not because of the lack of talented people available - I've asked plenty of no brainers on it. Unfortunately most are too scared to try. It gives me sad face .

[General Brewster]

did people forget or in the first case never felt how pride they where with the badge ?
It makes for more motivation. more good work.

[Bethencourt]

It's not a promise though is it. He says he'll be involved modding Rome II but that's besides the point.

Everyone applies to be a citizen. Not an Artifex, Civitate or Citizen brand. But to be a citizen. If you apply as a debater more consideration goes toward debating, and generally helping other members out. In this case, there is seemingly no weight given to him helping other members with something very new for Total War. There's no weight given to the example he is setting in seeing what is possible with campaign map re-processing. He would represent citizenship with an Artifex badge quite well do you not think? That's more than enough - setting a good example. You can't expect every citizen to be in the Curia, debating nonsensical theories on "what is citizenship? hmmpvvv" all the time.

There is a growing propensity to set the bar too high, when the likes of Opifex and Phalera are defined constitutionally as awards. Citizenship isn't an award. Until it's listed under Community Awards in the constitution, it's not an award. It's a total myth that it is and the Curia will never be representative or useful if you're only looking to give citizenship to people at the tail end of their contributions to the community.

Having a bit of foresight is not a big ask is it? Is it so difficult to spot talented people on TWC these days? As someone looking to patronize, I can tell you it's difficult right now. Not because of the lack of talented people available - I've asked plenty of no brainers on it. Unfortunately most are too scared to try. It gives me sad face .

I was not talking about the actual cases in the CdC but the change in the criteria to evaluate contributions or and promissing people.

I have tried to make new ship moddels but failed. I have not made it public before I failed because I think it does not deserve attention because several causes maybe because I would not be the first saying it and it was not a great effort before it failed. Anyway that is my busines. And I would not base my application on that.

Probably you are right on that not all efforts have to succeed to be rewarded or recongized. But this failed or not finished efforts have to be measurable by them self and their relevance.

Citizenship is not oficially an award but is motivational. I never said it was an award, anyway this debate of award or not award is just a vocabulary debate. The important thing, for me, is that it is motivational.

@G. Brewster. How the motivation works is different for every person. Maybe for some people getting it just balance the things so they are calmed from then on so they do not feel eager of getting it. For other people makes them work better. And sometimes or many times it is a time limited motivation so few months later the new citizen can be having the same or lower level of motivation (if they feel it is a empty of content badge)

[General Brewster]

I think everyone is overreacting.

If I did what he did/does and got rejected I either stop modding or move to a place it is appeticiated.
Cause that's what it is looking like.

[Bethencourt]

I think everyone is overreacting.

If I did what he did/does and got rejected I either stop modding or move to a place it is appeticiated.
Cause that's what it is looking like.

You are talking about one or two actual applications, isn't it?. Maybe others too. But this is not my case. Anyway I am reading a very civilizated debate. And who knows? maybe it is worthy for the applicants you are patronizing.

[.Mitch.]

I think everyone is overreacting.

If I did what he did/does and got rejected I either stop modding or move to a place it is appeticiated.
Cause that's what it is looking like.

What has he did/done though?

[Diamat]

I can sympathize with both sides of this debate. In the end, however, it will be up to each individual councilor to define what he understands as "citizenship." Neither side is perfectly right when it comes to defining citizenship. Moreover, most of the current CdeC members were elected on the basis of holding a "hard contribution" type of view (based on what applicants' have already accomplished). They want hard contributions that can be evaluated objectively. I myself am leaning this way. But I have to admit, it is not easy for me. Brewster's last two clients have given me a lot to think about.

[Bethencourt]

I can sympathize with both sides of this debate. In the end, however, it will be up to each individual councilor to define what he understands as "citizenship." Neither side is perfectly right when it comes to defining citizenship. Moreover, most of the current CdeC members were elected on the basis of holding a "hard contribution" type of view (based on what applicants' have already accomplished). They want hard contributions that can be evaluated objectively. I myself am leaning this way. But I have to admit, it is not easy for me. Brewster's last two clients have given me a lot to think about.

Maybe because of this?

Probably you are right on that not all efforts have to succeed to be rewarded or recongized. But this failed or not finished efforts have to be measurable by them self and their relevance.

And this is very difficult to do.

[Leonidas The Lion]

I think everyone is overreacting.

If I did what he did/does and got rejected I either stop modding or move to a place it is appreciated.
Cause that's what it is looking like.

That is an immature way of going about things.

Brewster,
In my younger days I too saw potential and proposed clients before their time, take a look at Code_Knight's and Capt. Fozdikes first apps with me as their patron. The reservations brought up in those cases were similar as in this case. Did they leave? No, they kept at it and then went on not only to become citizens but moderators as well. Nobody is doubting him, we are simply saying that we want to see more before we can decide.

[General Brewster]

Typing stuff here goes to blind eyes.

Rather go and check the s2 map thread he put put a settlement and units on the new landmass

[Lord William]

The Curial list needs updating, just thought I would let you know

[Genius of the Restoration]

Everything should be up to date by tomorrow evening my time. I've been away and using my tablet which has made any post editing a chore. I'm now computered-up and ready to rumble.

[Obi Wan Asterix]

I'm with Omnipotent here. We should be awarding citizenship as much on potential as achievement and what he has already done and what he will achieve will be up there with other Artifex awards - Milner and PunitorMaximus are the most recent two and they passed with flying colours. Remlap passed 11-0 and much of his work was by his own admission not visible - OK his Minecraft work was exemplary.

Citizenship should not just be an award for what you have already done, it has to be seen as a viable goal for those users who are willing to contribute to the site in future, now it is easy to say "well I will do X, Y and Z when I am a citizen" but the CdeC are not then held accountable for the citizen's failing to follow up on those promises if they don't do everything they have said. You should though grasp an opportunity to further a users TWC progress and contribution where all prior evidence points to the user doing those things they have promised to improve on. Looks lto me like the applicant will indeed do as he says, so give him the opportunity and get an inner glow of happiness when he succeeds!

Citizenship selection (through precedent) went down a bad, dark, scary road akin to Neo-Facism... one of the reasons I left the CdC. Citizenship should be about activity, and good energy input into the community, and not stricter and stricter pseudo-rules designed to raise the importance and holier-than-thoughness of those that make them.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

This is what I'm not sure about, if you feel like that then surely you'd want to be part of CdeC in an effort to change it?