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Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat - Page 314
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Thread: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

  1. #6261
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Can the issue be related to the Content Emeritus status you both have?
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  2. #6262
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I have updated the Curial Annals. there's probably a few errors that'll have to be fixed, if you notice any please let me know. If I missed anything also feel free to let me know.

    Register of Medals Awarded by Vote of the Curia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    @ Elfdude, I don't give a for your condescending appraisal of my strategy. You haven't addresses a single point because I think you're unable to. I'm embarrassed for you honestly. Never has somebody so pathetically claimed the moral high ground. Piss poor debating, piss poor. I accept your surrender. Absolutely pathetic. Phalera my ass.
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  3. #6263
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Can the issue be related to the Content Emeritus status you both have?
    So Flinn is to blame. Marioooooooooooo
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  4. #6264
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    There was indeed a permissions error. Lolisuck think it's been fixed, but of course if you encounter additional problems please report them.

  5. #6265
    Hader's Avatar To consort with the heretic is to endanger one's purity. But to lie to an Inquisitor is to forfeit your soul.
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    To be fair, I did warn there could be permissions/viewing issues

  6. #6266
    PikeStance's Avatar ⚜️ Omnipresent ⚜️
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    ​[QUOTE=Leonardo;15748605]I do get it. Anyone who is arguing about something has always presented an argument to speak for ones cause. And that's what I meant, nothing else. [QUOTE]
    I wasn't referring to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    Valuation is a populist argument i.e. the value of the object or service is determined by the agreed upon value of the people who use or have use of it.
    This is rhetorical nonsense.
    if you are indifferent to it, then you want to devalue it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    So what... What has that to do with Hader's proposal.
    You have repeated the same thing over and over again without presenting a good argument of why you're right and other who disagree with you are wrong.
    It has everything to do with his proposal...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    ... The affirmative vote people weren't concerned that the vote devalues their citizenship or at least think the rest of the proposal is more valuable than that loss. If 80% of them made that calculation then it's a safe bet that your main thesis about valuation has nothing to do with why others made their choice. The reality here is that you've never presented a solid argument as to why anyone else should view citizenship the way you do, this disconnect is why your complaints and protest mean little. You've stated in many different ways that this devalues citizenship, and every time someone has responded you've declared it not what your getting at then restated the same thing. At this point I have no idea what the basis for your opinion is and I simply am finding your arguments tedious because it feels like we're going in circles.
    A solid argument?
    The basis of my argument is pretty clear. The purpose of citizenship is to promote activity on the forum. The caveat was an increased voice in regards to the site.

    Just to remind people of what you actually get for citizenship
    + Ability to change the default user title to a custom one.
    This is an odd one since 99% of forums allow you to change this within a like 50 posts or less.
    + 3 badges (Citizen, Civitates, and. Artifex to choose from and a colored name. (Artifex is contribution in modding, Civitates for contributing in content and/ or debating. Citizen is for contributing in various areas not covered by the other two).
    A unique color and badge is something, but it means little if that's all it is.
    + Ability to run in Curial elections, such as Curator, Censor, or Magistrate
    With the exception of magistrate it is Curia focus elections.
    + Allowances to give more focused feedback and bring up grievances and positive comments in the Curia.
    + Ability to put forth proposals that can change any part of the site. (Generally, the admin pays attention to the request to the Curia, while the Q&S Forum would be dismissed unless it is a minor suggestion)
    + Can post in the Symposium where the rules are more relaxed.
    Outside of the underutilized Symposium, this is the one area that ought to attract citizens. Now, the only difference is the right to vote?

    We are now, and not sure for how long, a glorified awards committee.

    A serious question is; what is the "selling point" for citizenship? We demand a higher standard of behavior, but why do we? If it doesn't offer much in benefits, then what is the point and making a demand on behavior?
    Patronage has dropped over the years. Clearly, citizens themselves do not value it, so why keep it. I posed this question over four years ago. Everyone insisted that they "value" citizenship, but no one in the past four years has done anything to increase the "value" of citizenship. Can we promote activity without citizenship?

    The recent proposal offers to shake things up, but how exactly? Wouldn't anyone that participates in the Prothalomos would be worthy of citizenship. Of course, what would be an incentive for a citizen to patronize anyone that clearly demonstrate an investment of time and interest in the site? Opening the Prothalomos has effectively ended citizenship as a viable means to promote activity on the site. That is citizenships primary purpose. t is thus counterproductive to vote for a proposal for another factor in sacrifice because it would make it meaningless.





    -------

    On another issue. Isn't this award proposal an "amendment" since it is adding a Curia Award? This leads to an important question; Medium and Large Curia awards have always been proposed for int he Prothalomos. Shouldn't that change now. If not, then the Curia is no long a glorified award committee either. I ponder, why would non- citizens comment on what the Curia choose to recognize.
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  7. #6267
    Elfdude's Avatar The Blue Spirit
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Your post seems much more like nonsense, none of what you listed is even slightly affected by the change. This is why people find your arguments less than compelling. It's built off of wild supposition which has no coherent connection to reality.
    "Pride is not the antidote of Shame but its source, humility is its only true antidote." - Iroh

    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    @ Elfdude, I don't give a for your condescending appraisal of my strategy. You haven't addresses a single point because I think you're unable to. I'm embarrassed for you honestly. Never has somebody so pathetically claimed the moral high ground. Piss poor debating, piss poor. I accept your surrender. Absolutely pathetic. Phalera my ass.
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  8. #6268
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Patronage has dropped over the years. Clearly, citizens themselves do not value it, so why keep it. I posed this question over four years ago. Everyone insisted that they "value" citizenship, but no one in the past four years has done anything to increase the "value" of citizenship. Can we promote activity without citizenship?
    Patronages have dropped as the site activity. Less active members means less potential candidates. Quod erat demonstrandum. And while you spent over 4 years here, you haven't noticed that activity on the site is not generated by only the citizens but by all kind of members. So to answer to your question, yes we can promote activity without citizenship.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The recent proposal offers to shake things up, but how exactly? Wouldn't anyone that participates in the Prothalomos would be worthy of citizenship. Of course, what would be an incentive for a citizen to patronize anyone that clearly demonstrate an investment of time and interest in the site? Opening the Prothalomos has effectively ended citizenship as a viable means to promote activity on the site. That is citizenships primary purpose. t is thus counterproductive to vote for a proposal for another factor in sacrifice because it would make it meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    On another issue. Isn't this award proposal an "amendment" since it is adding a Curia Award? This leads to an important question; Medium and Large Curia awards have always been proposed for int he Prothalomos. Shouldn't that change now. If not, then the Curia is no long a glorified award committee either. I ponder, why would non- citizens comment on what the Curia choose to recognize.
    Why not post that comment in the thread you linked then?
    And to be honest, you're inadvertently pointing the main problem of the curia with that comment: it has become too bureaucratic and procedurial to be of any efficiency to promote any kind of activity.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; February 23, 2019 at 04:00 AM.
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  9. #6269
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I wasn't referring to you.
    I disagree. You were in fact referring to me, but if you weren't then tell me why did you quoted me in your post.
    Last edited by Leonardo; February 23, 2019 at 09:18 AM. Reason: Quoted post corrected!






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  10. #6270
    Hader's Avatar To consort with the heretic is to endanger one's purity. But to lie to an Inquisitor is to forfeit your soul.
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post

    The basis of my argument is pretty clear. The purpose of citizenship is to promote activity on the forum. The caveat was an increased voice in regards to the site.
    This is probably not as an objective assessment of citizenship as you seem to think, if my past comments on my opinions on the matter, as well as others, have proven anything.

    I'd say the purpose of citizenship is to serve as first a reward for contribution, second as a new way to contribute through different means than before. The latter has been where the issue is, opening a new door for new citizens to contribute and being met with essentially an empty room.


    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    We are now, and not sure for how long, a glorified awards committee.
    We have been for a long while. And even with substantial change for the better beyond that, will remain a glorified awards committee to some degree.



    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post

    A serious question is; what is the "selling point" for citizenship? We demand a higher standard of behavior, but why do we? If it doesn't offer much in benefits, then what is the point and making a demand on behavior?
    Patronage has dropped over the years. Clearly, citizens themselves do not value it, so why keep it. I posed this question over four years ago. Everyone insisted that they "value" citizenship, but no one in the past four years has done anything to increase the "value" of citizenship. Can we promote activity without citizenship?

    The recent proposal offers to shake things up, but how exactly? Wouldn't anyone that participates in the Prothalomos would be worthy of citizenship. Of course, what would be an incentive for a citizen to patronize anyone that clearly demonstrate an investment of time and interest in the site? Opening the Prothalomos has effectively ended citizenship as a viable means to promote activity on the site. That is citizenships primary purpose. t is thus counterproductive to vote for a proposal for another factor in sacrifice because it would make it meaningless.
    Was citizenship truly promoting activity by members in the first place? Can we really say that every new citizen in the last 3, 5, or even 10 years, made all their contributions and activity with the sole intent of gaining citizenship? I can think already of a few of my clients of the past that sounded like they had little to no idea about citizenship and what it meant when I first approached them for it. I'm pretty sure those same ones barely, if ever, actually interacted with the Curia after they got their citizenship. To those sorts of members, citizenship is entirely an award more so than a way to continue contributing to the site.

    You can't put a label on what citizenship should be definitively and expect everyone to follow that to the letter. We as a collective citizen body cannot define citizenship so strictly nor give it some definitive means that it must adhere to. Citizenship is always going to mean something different to everyone, both in how they value it, and how and how much they utilize it to further their activity.



    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    On another issue. Isn't this award proposal an "amendment" since it is adding a Curia Award? This leads to an important question; Medium and Large Curia awards have always been proposed for int he Prothalomos. Shouldn't that change now. If not, then the Curia is no long a glorified award committee either. I ponder, why would non- citizens comment on what the Curia choose to recognize.
    Are you saying then that because it is proposed as a curial award that having it proposed in a now open-to-all Proth devalues it somehow?

    Plenty of curial awards do not hold the requirement that the recipient need already be a citizen. I see no reason why then non citizen input on any award proposal is supposed to somehow devalue or in any conceivable way derail the intent of or sincerity behind any curial award.

  11. #6271
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar Bearded Moderation
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    So Flinn is to blame. Marioooooooooooo
    Always

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    To be fair, I did warn there could be permissions/viewing issues
    You did
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; February 23, 2019 at 01:06 PM.

  12. #6272
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    Pike buddy, we lost. Not just the battle, but the war. Five years now we've battled against the bizarre ideology, born out of the bill to abolish the CdeC, that in order to make progress we have to strip away the trappings/perks/functions of the Curia. I don't understand why people are so quick to vote away their rights, so eager to do away with tradition and so content with being just an awards committee, but they are, and this vote proved that. For half a decade we've fought against this - opening up the Prothalamos was the first proposal to be made in the aftermath of the CdeC bill, and we managed to shoot it down time and time again over the years, trying to prevent the Curia from going further down the treacherous path first pioneered in 2014. But it has finally passed, and it's clear now that people no longer want our brand of citizenship or our vision of the Curia. And we have to take responsibility for that as well, as mad as it might seem to us. We managed to preserve the status quo, but we've never effectively come together as a coherent group to offer an alternative. And we've passed the point of no return now, I don't think there's any hope left of returning the Curia to 'the good old days' (whatever that might mean), so best perhaps to let it go. The Curia has spoken, democracy has won out, and we have to admit that it's over for us.
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  13. #6273
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Because the Curia had become a festering which drove away 90% of newly patronized citizens. When the entirety of the active citizenry is less than the count of our combined toes and fingers you need to change something.
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  14. #6274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    When the entirety of the active citizenry is less than the count of our combined toes and fingers you need to change something.
    That's true, most ''newb'' citizens are hardly active and we need to find the reason-s behind it.

  15. #6275
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    And that's exactly the problem. We make knee jerk reactions without thinking about underlying problems or long term consequences. We just say 'well let's get rid of this and hope that it increases activity', instead of trying to fix the systems we do have. As much as I respect the thought and effort Hader put in to the proposal, it's still the same reasoning Squid gave for getting rid of the CdeC five years ago, and it demonstrably hasn't worked. If we continue down this path, we'll end up with nothing left to get rid of, and the Curia will effectively vote itself out of existence.

    As my patron said when the CdeC was abolished, now that the scapegoat is dead, what's next? When opening up the Prothalmos doesn't work, what then? How long before the Curia is just absorbed entirely into the Q&S?
    Last edited by Hitai de Bodemloze; February 23, 2019 at 01:29 PM.
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  16. #6276
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I don't think you can call a change such as opening the Proth that has been battled over and discussed to every possible extent over the past five years (!) a knee jerk reaction. If anything this has been the most extensively deliberated decision of the Curia for a long time.

    We spent years trying to "fix the system", and all it got us were technical discussions about passages of the Constitution that not even the 20-something people voting on really cared for. I don't know what the 'ideal' Curia pre CdC abolition had over the current one and except for repeated calls for more power and bling ('part of the administration', pay to rule, various useless additional ranks) I have never seen a positive proposal to add/restore something of value.

    I honestly doubt even the CdC Curia was ever more than a glorified awards committee. It just had more members interested in it, so the internal power struggles and squabbles provided more entertainment than the recent "voting down an ill-thought proposal on a two-weekly basis".
    Last edited by Iskar; February 23, 2019 at 02:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Here's a theory that'll cheer you up. All the non-Citizens will make truly terrible proposals, and thus it will be the duty of the combined Citizenry to vote against the proposals, thereby increasing the amount of Citizens who are active, and maybe they'll actually become permanently involved. Although that'd be a pretty sad state of affairs.




  18. #6278
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    Here's a theory that'll cheer you up. All the non-Citizens will make truly terrible proposals, and thus it will be the duty of the combined Citizenry to vote against the proposals, thereby increasing the amount of Citizens who are active, and maybe they'll actually become permanently involved. Although that'd be a pretty sad state of affairs.
    That's one way to look at it, but the time will tell I suppose.






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  19. #6279
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    How has the proposal vaporised your contributions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    And how would all your contributions to this site be vaporized because of losing one exclusive part of citizenship? That makes it sound like contributions are worthless without citizenship to show for it and/or back it up. Nothing I have done in my many years in staff feels devalued simply because a few more people without citizenship can now mingle a little more closely in a single forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Quite the opposite. This has increased the value of your badge because it is now what it was always meant to be, a reward, instead of a burden or obligation.
    Sigh, you guys wont get it and I dont mind that you dont.

    Citizenship used to mean something, I tried so hard to become a part of the “class” and when I finally got it I always wore it proudly. I only used a different badge on two occasions, my Curatorship and Magistrate terms. Modding became my focus to achieve citizenship. A means to and end so to say. I stopped modding not terribly long after too. You devaluate my citizenship because someone who has done nothing(yes I know there are those who did) can now post here too.

    My contributions as Curator are vaporized in the sense that everything I did for this section is now no longer exclusive. The “reward” in citizenship has now decreased.

    This is just how I feel it. I’m not saying it’s the right but it simply is how it makes me feel. You can call it conservative, elitism or whatever but it doesn’t change the way this makes me feel.

  20. #6280
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Brewster View Post
    Sigh, you guys wont get it and I dont mind that you dont.

    Citizenship used to mean something, I tried so hard to become a part of the “class” and when I finally got it I always wore it proudly. I only used a different badge on two occasions, my Curatorship and Magistrate terms. Modding became my focus to achieve citizenship. A means to and end so to say. I stopped modding not terribly long after too. You devaluate my citizenship because someone who has done nothing(yes I know there are those who did) can now post here too.

    My contributions as Curator are vaporized in the sense that everything I did for this section is now no longer exclusive. The “reward” in citizenship has now decreased.

    This is just how I feel it. I’m not saying it’s the right but it simply is how it makes me feel. You can call it conservative, elitism or whatever but it doesn’t change the way this makes me feel.
    A means to what end then? Was citizenship the end? Did you get into modding because you loved modding or just for citizenship? Regardless of that even, what citizenship meant before you were a citizen and what it means now do not have to be equal. It certainly isn't for me, I definitely was quite excited to participate in the Curia when I first learned of it and all that went on there. I don't feel that way now in the least but my present views cannot devalue or in any way color what my past views on it were.

    I would tread carefully in how this whole juxtaposition of citizenship and posting in the proth for non citizens thing goes though. I do not devalue your citizenship by wanting non citizens to post in the Proth, that is entirely your doing to feel like value is lost in it. To further color it in that favor by insinuating that anyone that isn't a citizen is likely someone that has done "nothing" does not help either. Regardless of anyone's contributions on this forum, they're still a part of the site and keeping in some mindset of their opinions or ideas somehow meaning less because of it is a fast-track towards alienating more people and more potential citizens.

    I get why you feel the value of your citizenship is decreased because of this, I don't personally feel that way though and I can't force anyone to just feel differently on it just because. I do however think you and perhaps others see it in one light and that's a big part of why you feel that way about it. The way I see it, opening the Proth is a bare minimum encroachment on the exclusivity of citizenship because all that it really is achieving is allowing more direct mingling of ideas in one spot. What about the Proth is so damn holy that someone without citizenship posting there is bad for your citizenship, but if they had posted the same in the CCT before it would have been fine? Even if you engaged them in discussion there? To me, regardless of any sanctity or value you have on the meaning of citizenship, that just screams inefficient. Not to mention the stigma that seemed to come with that separation, where CCT talk was welcomed for the plebs because the Curia supposedly valued their voice, but it was pretty rare that anything in the CCT ever seemed to be taken seriously by anyone. Since you still have your voice the same as ever in the Proth, and citizens still are the only ones voting, what harm is truly coming from it?

    If we had a much larger, much more active citizen body that also was utilizing the institution to help the site or even further their own goals on site (which can still be constructive most of the time even if such things can come off as selfish), then I'd probably be swayed to the side of citizens only for the Proth, voting, etc., much like it used to be. Without a larger active citizen body, especially one that is not filled to the brim of mostly current and former staff only, the Curia is losing more value for doing anything more that staff cannot already do.

    The fact that my proposal passed with not even 30 votes cast is already pointing out a part of the problem. This certainly would not have passed in the Curia ten years ago, not just because of the ideas most people had at the time and that they would have opposed it for the same reasons, but we'd probably still be locked in debate nearly 3 months in here from the original post date trying to figure things out and would probably never come to a good consensus.

    I don't disagree with the notion we need more citizens, active citizens, and ones that care about the institution of citizenship and the site (and using it to better the site). But nothing that has been done for many years now has stopped that issue from growing, and continuing to sit here in a barely active Curia like that wasn't going to change anything either. I'd like to hope the Curia will remain as bland and "at a low" as I've made it out to be only to be able to spring back in a few years time to something worthwhile again. But that takes time and patience, and most importantly some actual change, to ever get there.

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