*NOW FIXED* Modders Collective Think Tank to fix B.A.I melee bug!*NOW FIXED*Updated 19-12-09 Important news!

[La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham]

Announcement 22-12-09

Hello chaps it looks like the modders collective might have been a good idea,at least I would like to think it played a part? have a look at what CA have said regarding the BAI.

link here;post 105
http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/topic/66199?page=6

And well done Darth Vader sir!



19-12-09

The new darthmodlite 4.6

Well I have just completed 2 campaign battles, Britain vs France, and Britain vs Spain and French allies, I was soundly thrashed in both battles, although I was outnumbered 3 to 1 approx on both occasions formerly it would have been a very close run thing, Enemy pike pen marched on my flanks with cavalry whilst Infantry and light infantry stood off and provided musket fire on the middle of my lines, they were not inclined to rush into melee until my lines were overwhelmed.
This was better I would say than any previous version of Darthmod, also the AI was far more intelligent than when we had the CA patch 1.3
I was astounded by the campaign battle enemy maneuvering, unbelievable, this is better than could be expected and I for one am very impressed and happy with the results, if Darth has had any "extra" help on this version then I for one am grateful, this is the way battles should be in my opinion I had quick look at the stats and I am bewildered at the amount of stats that have reverted back to the almost vanilla stats, at least that's what it looks like to me, however it works and that's as it should be.
Well done Darth vader, shower this fellow with rep chaps hes cracked it for me! and well done those sterling chaps at CA too for their supporting Darth Vader in his previous efforts!.
Astounding!

19-12-09

The best and longest fought battle ever!

And that's no exaggeration chaps!

Would have posted earlier old bean, but I have been rather Busy tryng to capture a French fort on the Paris map.
2120 British against 8400 French Troops, you may say well the British would have slaughtered the French, with a lesser amount of fine British soldiers, and normally I would have said so too, but I never shirked from a challenge! and this certainly was as I did not use my saker artillery units.

I marched my British infantry and grenadier units to the western side gate and ordered them to fire at the French, this was a tactic that I employed to somehow fool the Enemy and whilst the enemy was occupied I had my cavalry units wait for a chance at the western gate, and when the opportunity arose I sent my cavalry in to try and soften up the French fire-lock citizenry units.
Then I deployed some of my British infantry units around the fort wall perimeter in an attempt to surround the enemy, a tactic I thought sound, however as brave as my lads were, I have to conclude that I was again thoroughly and soundly thrashed.
It was the longest battle I have ever fought in Empire total war apart from sea battles, and I haven't tested those yet. So all in all a very epic and long fought battle.
I am still amazed old bean, I thank you!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Download the Darthmod 4.6 from

Download from here

DarthMod Empire Lite 4,6.rar (72.7 KB)

Or download from the bottom of the first post on this thread




How to test the BAI effectively

Try this old boy Britain Vs France, grassy flatland or Caucasus map, normal set up of units, meaning leave all units in the game setup start positions, and let the enemy lines advance on your lines, artillery can take out any enemy cavalry advance, but just leave your British in their line up and let the enemy lines advance, this is how I have been testing the enemy BAI, give it a try please!
Let the A.I do the work not you.

Formations

I was wondering why my enemy troops invariably go into melee mode,and lose formation whilst advancing (in custom battles) and I think I have discovered why. its worse when the enemy advances on your position and loses formation and hardly ever exchange fire, but rush at your position in the melee mode!

Removing light infantry units (or simply not choosing Light infantry units in custom battle) who have the skirmish mode or any units with this ability improves the BAI immensely and keeps your enemy units in almost perfect formation.
Perhaps this is worth looking into? there is a chap on the mod forums who mentions virtually the same thing,
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=316613

So I set up my units on the grassy flatland map, and deployed only Line infantry units on both sides, (British and Austrian) I was amazed at the results!

Your comments!, give it a try chaps you will be surprised. Try with line infantry only then try with a mixture of light infantry and line infantry and see the difference!


Previous tests with former amended versions of darthmod

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

17-12-09

An important discovery chaps

Well here some pictures using my latest amended, darthmod_brig2

Britain against America, using a mixture of vanilla units, Toontotalwars units and the elite units of America, I reduce the elite units of Americas melee skills and charge bonus, as these seem to effect all other American units I think the results speak for themselves myself?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

At this stage I thought oh no here we go again, fish swarm effect!





But I needn't have worried they were just forming up, thank god!

14-12-09

Posted earlier today

Well I have been giving it a whorl all day matey, Darth has changed Light infantry attribute I hope as a result of my and other members theory s concerning Light infantry behavior, and my idea too increase musket ranges, has worked out for me and other members in the vanilla game, so if you ask me we have a working BAI now, pity it doesnt work with TAR though, I have just completed 2 custom battles British va Austria Vanilla units and British vs Austria using only TAR units, the pictures speak for themselves?
As for making TAR compatible, with Darthmod I will leave that to the real experts like Darth and hip63 matey I just have the theory's and ideas old boy and some of them do work eh?

I would like to make a universal Mod based on darths, but of course he is the main man really however I do believe a solution has arrived, at least for the BAI which for me is near perfect, I also have a feeling that the ai in the campaign battles is governed by the AI management in the game main pack, I have been looking into those to get an understanding!

Using TAR units, almost but not quite, using darthmod with my changes

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Vanilla units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

13-12-09
Darthmod 4.45 lite, amended version by me
Alright I have tested my amended version of the Darthmod lite, all I did was increase the musket ranges by a value of 20 and pistol ranges, and here are some pictures of what has been happening.
The enemy kept formation all the way to my lines, enemy cavalry charged my flanks and I devastated them with arty fire, the enemy line infantry and light infantry kept advancing then pause, and proceeded with volley fire, and fired approx 10 -12 volleys at my lines.
To me this is a vast improvement, I test around 10 times and virtually the same results, however I tested this on the custom grassy flatland map (for testing purposes) with around the same amount of units on both sides the enemy units didn't go into melee until they had fired quite a few volleys at my lines!

I forgot to say as well. if you have any tighter formations packs or mods take it out this has happened in the last 10 or so games I have tested, and I think its a vast improvement I think



Here is some short video clip of a previous battle using the amended Darthmod 4.45 lite.brig version







Pictures, using my amended version of Darthmod 4.5 lite, I am using it with the TAR mod (The American Revolution) it it also works fine with the Vanilla game of course!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

.

Pictures

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

British line infantry


Austrian line infantry





Austrians forming up, in formation!






The Austrians broke the British lines but not before 3 or 4 volley fire shots were exchanged!

Better BAI = more customers coming back to empire, surely this is a win win scenario for everyone?

Slideshow made by MorganH in custom battles on all terrains!
http://img194.imageshack.us/slidesho...1316081021.png

Modders think tank?

The reason I have mentioned this as it may be that a modder who deals with BAI might look into the possibility that light infantry unit behavior is causing some problems and perhaps correct it? worth a try I think? but there is definitely a difference when not using light infantry units!

Well I have a suggestion, why don't all the Modding community get together and share what they know, for instance one modder may have a part solution whilst another has the solution, when added, an overall 100% solution? a I said it is for the benefit of everyone, a collective modders think tank and I am not talking of whips proposals and ideas either, I am thinking of a Joint Mod developers forum. a joint venture for the community, how does my proposal sound?

Heres a team I would like to see getting together, I feel certain many problems could be resolved if modders got together to resolve anything that is causing problems!

I feel if a joint effort isnt implemented then modding for empire will come to a standstill, and we dont want that eh?


Hip63
l33tl4m3r
DARTH VADER
Toontotalwar
KillzoneGB
Alpaca
DaVinci
King Louise Assurbanipal
Ahiga
Lazy Knight
Swiss Halberdier
danova
Aykis16
husserlTW,
harshman_chris
Yarkis
erasmus777, and the rest of Ornamentum team

Imagine the progress if this was a reality? sorry if I have left anyone out!

Time to pool resources chaps!

"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too"

No problem can withstand the assault of sustained thinking. ~Voltaire

And if your going to vote no it isn't a good idea, then at least explain why you don't think it a good idea eh? there may be something I didn't think of!

[♔KillZoneGB♔]

Nice Find, so we just remove the Ability and do this manual.

I`ll Give it a go today

[daniu]

I'm not sure I understand you correctly.

I was wondering why my troops invariably go into melee mode

Your troops go into melee mode without you switching? As in, the "crossed swords" button switches on by itself?
I've not seen that happen...

Or are you talking about the AI not rushing into melee as easily?

[La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham]

Anouncement

Hello chaps it looks like the modders collective might have been a good idea,at least I would like to think it played a part? have a look at what CA have said regarding the BAI.

link here;post 105
http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/topic/66199?page=6

I'm not sure I understand you correctly.
Your troops go into melee mode without you switching? As in, the "crossed swords" button switches on by itself?
I've not seen that happen...

Or are you talking about the AI not rushing into melee as easily?

Or are you talking about the AI not rushing into melee as easily?

Yes this is what I am talking about, but I meant enemy units (light infantry) if you use light infantry units then the the units deployed rush into melee mode the enemy seem to rush into melee mode mostly without a shot fired, too easily, removing light infantry units or not selecting light infantry units in custom battles helps keep your enemy line infantry etc in formation!
But don't take my word for it old bean, give it a try!
Edit, have updated the O.P to make it a little clearer, I meant the enemy formations and troops advancing on your position in custom battles!

[DARTH VADER]

Graham,
Thanks for the link and this post.
You must be aware that in DarthMod I already have found a solution for this kind of problems by changing classes for the units, resulting in more proper shooting lines. And yes, still, those units marked with skirmish ability, cause problem. I was thinking to remove also this class, but there would be side effects mentioned here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=310627

I am still thinking to implement though.

In DarthMod:
Line, Elite, Grenadier infantry classes -> Melee infantry class
Light Infantry->Skirmish class

I can change Light Infantry, Skirmish Infantry -> Melee infantry class, so that the AI places them to a single line.

[l33tl4m3r]

I'd also like to add this video from some recent changes;


All the line infantry units in this video have the skirmish ability -- they do still form a line and resort to musket fire instead of a melee rush.

Has anyone looked at some of the terrain hiding abilities that light infantry have that line infantry do not?

[Ryo]

excellent...but you must try with light infantry....

[La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham]

DARTH VADER

l33tl4m3r

Well thanks old sticks, jolly glad you chaps are on to this already, I was pleasantly surprised when I tested the theory and had some great shoot outs indeed, well you fellows are the ones to have this sorted out I am sure, perhaps there may be some enterprising young rapscallion who may find a solution as well so I am glad its out and around the forums now!

And hey I am in that video l33tl4m3r, I am chuffed!

[DARTH VADER]

Ok and if there is a fix, what is then? We have to search or you say it?

This video does not help though because there is no mix of light infantry or a big army composure where the problem occurs. But It would be interesting to test and implement if you say how.

[l33tl4m3r]

Ok and if there is a fix, what is then? We have to search or you say it?

This video does not help though because there is no mix of light infantry or a big army composure where the problem occurs. But It would be interesting to test and implement if you say how.

I think you might have misunderstood the intention of my post -- I was merely adding information with the hope that we could all find a solution. I was not claiming at any time to have fixed anything, merely that the skirmish ability does not mean a unit is bound to force melee. I want the same thing every modder does for Empire.

The line infantry in those videos have mass fire properly obsoleted through the unit_abilities table and are spaced equally rank to file -- I then added skirmishing and the vanilla formations (which are credited as your recovery in the thread about this, by the way) and tested in campaign battles. I then recreated several of the campaign battles in quick battle setups and had similar results.

[La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham]

Ok and if there is a fix, what is then? We have to search or you say it?

This video does not help though because there is no mix of light infantry or a big army composure where the problem occurs. But It would be interesting to test and implement if you say how.

Well I wont even pretend I am a an expert in the game mechanics, (other than music) apart from renaming units and changing abilities sir I leave it to the experts, However I was thinking why not change or make it available such as in hip63 mods the ability to switch off light infantry attributes, an on and off button, I never thought it would be possible to switch music on or off by clicking a button or soldier chatter in different languages, or the smoke and blood mod could be changed just by clicking a button, but they are now possible because of yours and hip63 and modders getting together to see what was possible, all those abilities I mention and more are now a reality, perhaps it may be possible to have light infantry attributes switched on or off!, by lateral thinking a lot of possibilities become open, in my humble opinion sir and your teams and members certainly have this marvelous ability of lateral thinking!

Its all in a common cause I feel sure that a 100% solution will be available sometime soon, it may not be an established modder who does this, however it is for every ones benefit if it happens for this game we all enjoy (modding) and playing eh?

[DARTH VADER]

Yes OK l33tl4m3r but the video has with large letters "CHICKEN DANCE FIX- APE: TI" so everyone understands the obvious. Then you ask rhetorically

"Has anyone looked at some of the terrain hiding abilities that light infantry have that line infantry do not?"

Those 2 are enough for the misunderstanding which are of minor importance comparing to the interesting discussion about this mod matter. As La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham says, we must all collaborate to find a mixed solution to this. And, yes, I believe that with the combined efforts of all of us (If I had time I would offer comprehensive tutorials about many mod aspects, but at least I give a summary of features in each DarthMod update, which refer mostly to experienced modders like yourself who "catch" the information immediately and implement to their mods ASAP.)

Also, it is good to mention here (read my update for DarthMod 4.3) that I removed the older vanilla formations, because I have noticed a bad cavalry behaviour with it, but it will be an option in DMUC.
If anybody knows something more than the general fixes introduced in DarthMod for the melee problem which are again in summary:

-Spotting parameters
-Nullification of xhold parameters
-Change of unit class & roles (the unknown 4 column)
-Older vanilla formation (optional)

Put them to the table here.

[l33tl4m3r]

Then you ask rhetorically

I apologize again, here I was actually asking explicitly; I have not checked to see if line infantry with skirmishing behave differently when their hiding abilities match those of light infantry. It was merely speculation.

(If I had time I would offer comprehensive tutorials about many mod aspects, but at least I give a summary of features in each DarthMod update, which refer mostly to experienced modders like yourself who "catch" the information immediately and implement to their mods ASAP.)

I'm not sure what this means, APE: TI doesn't contain anything from Darthmod.

Also, it is good to mention here (read my update for DarthMod 4.3) that I removed the older vanilla formations, because I have noticed a bad cavalry behaviour with it, but it will be an option in DMUC.
If anybody knows something more than the general fixes introduced in DarthMod for the melee problem which are again in summary:

-Spotting parameters
-Nullification of xhold parameters
-Change of unit class & roles (the unknown 4 column)
-Older vanilla formation (optional)

Put them to the table here.

To clarify; the results you see in the video I posted do not contain any of the following changes;

-Spotting parameters
-Nullification of xhold parameters
-Change of unit class & roles (the unknown 4 column)

[DARTH VADER]

I do not know if APE:TI generally uses or not what I describe in DarthMod. You said you used for the example of the video the old vanilla formations

I then added skirmishing and the vanilla formations (which are credited as your recovery in the thread about this, by the way) and tested in campaign battles. I then recreated several of the campaign battles in quick battle setups and had similar results.

which I proposed and then I wrote this. And what I said was for the good.

If you have any more ideas for the fix, just mention it, so we modders try it.

[La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham]

Well I have a suggestion, why don't all the Modding community get together and share what they know, for instance one modder may have a part solution whilst another has the solution, when added, an overall 100% solution? a I said it is for the benefit of everyone, a collective modders think tank and I am not talking of whips proposals and ideas either, I am thinking of a Joint Mod developers forum. a joint venture for the community, how does my proposal sound?

Heres a team I would like to see getting together, I feel certain many problems could be resolved if modders got together to resolve anything that is causing problems!

I feel if a joint effort isnt implemented then modding for empire will come to a standstill, and we dont want that eh?


Hip63
l33tl4m3r
DARTH VADER
Toontotalwar
KillzoneGB
Alpaca
DaVinci
King Louise Assurbanipal
Ahiga
Lazy Knight
Swiss Halberdier
danova
Aykis16
husserlTW,
harshman_chris
Yarkis
erasmus777,

and the rest of Ornamentum team

Imagine the progress if this was a reality? sorry if I have left anyone out!

Time to pool resources chaps!

[Leoben]

It seems obvious that modders working together to get the best AI possible would be the right thing to do for the community. But it depends of them, of course.

[MorganH.]

To the Poll;YES of Course!!!
Great initiatives,great posts and feeling somewhat confident for the future of the BAI again!
Indeed all units stats modders should join up if possible and release a mutual BAI fix(as good as it gets),cause CA aint doing it for us
Ill give a 100% support for this!
Best regards !

[Ryo]

agreed!!

...it would be really fantastic!!!

[Salvo]

La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham
"Yes, splendid initiative, for the benefit of the Empire community"

I support You fully, very good idea
REP++

[ToonTotalWar]

Great idea Brig, but who is going to facilitate it all and how are we going to piece it all together etc....???