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Thread: BC 2.02 : Holy Lands campaign (WSR) Diplomacy and OT

  1. #1

    Default BC 2.02 : Holy Lands campaign (WSR) Diplomacy and OT

    I think we will need a thread like this.

    First, retep219, I think you are a very good player, who could be a great player with some experience. I hope you do not get discouraged from your first experience with hotseats - they are extremely different from the single player.

    Now, for you, and for all who care, here is:

    The War for Afghanistan, from the Ghorid Perspective

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Turn 1

    1. Starting positions, advantages and disadvantages. the Ghorids start with two powerful stacks to the East, and with 10,000 denars. The Ghaznis start with a few small stacks, which combined barely make one stack, and 5,000 denars. Obviously, the Ghorids are at a better position. The only advantage the Ghaznavids have is that their turn is first. They also have one more settlement and can get profitable quicker. Each faction has one spy, 2 family members, 1 general and 1 diplomat.

    2. Ghaznavid turn. Before we address the Ghorid turn, first we need to see what the Ghaznavids did, because it is going to determine the Ghorid stratetgy. Upon starting the Ghorid turn, we find the following situation:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Obviously, the Ghaznavid ruler chose to hire a maximum army possible, including mercenaries, and placed some armies in Ghorid territory, not clear why. There has been no attempt at diplomacy.

    2. Ghorid strategy. Here are the implications of the Ghaznavid turn:
    - There is an immediate threat to Kabul.
    - The Ghaznavids will go bankrupt and deep into the hole. Their only way out is to decrease their army and sack a rich city (Kabul being the best target).
    - A war with the Ghorids seems inevitable, as the Ghaznavids have neglected the nearby rebel settlements and amassed all their forces on the border.

    Since the Ghorid armies are to the East, no immediate strike is possible. The Ghorids are also losing money, as their armies outweigh their income by far. Here is the solution:
    - Use part of the forces and the spy to take and sack Pindi - every denar helps.
    - Move armies to the West to protect the capital and create a superiority in case of a war.
    - Place forts strategically to hamper Ghaznavid progress in case of an invasion.
    - Build the best units available in Pindi and Kabul to use as reenforcements.

    Here is the situation at the end of the turn:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    The fort south of Kabul blocks an invasion from the direction of Gardez or Ghazni, while the fort Nort-West blocks an invasion from the direction of Bamiyan. A good number of the GHorid forces is near and with the units being built, the Ghorids will have a good chance at defeating the entire Ghazni army.

    At this point, the war may have been decided - the Ghaznavids have not managed to amass more troops than the Ghorids, while at the same time they have bankrupted themselves with no chance of building forts or training more troops in case of need.

    Turn 2

    1. Ghaznavid Turn. Here is the situation at the beginning of the Ghorid turn:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    2. Ghorid Turn. Obviously the fort South of Kabul served its purpose, and is now besieged by pretty much every warm body the Ghaznavids could muster. We can see their spy to the North - whether he was not able to infiltrate the fort or open the gates or whether the Ghaznavids decided not to use him is unclear.

    The next step is obvious - use the situation to deal a defeat to the Ghaznavid forces and take the initiative. For this purpose, pretty much all available forces were used. Here is the battle screen:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Clearly, the Ghorids have an advantage. The imperfect, deeply flawed auto-resolve system provides the following results:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Perhaps the Rajputs are smiling due to the terrible losses on both sides, but this was not a Pyrric victory. The Ghorid army is large enough to finish the war, and this is what counts. After the battle, the heir with the remnants of his stack retreats to Ghazni, while the general Meshud Ghaznavi retreats to Gardez with the remnants of his army.

    Gardez is unreachable, but this is fine, as Meshud is not a family member. Both family members are trapped in Ghazni and so the Ghorids send their best general and everything that can reach the walls to siege the enemy capital and main production center (not that the Ghaznavids have any money to train troops anyway). Bamiyan is also defended by just a unit of militia level spearmen, so Mohammad of Ghor can siege it with some reenforcements from the nearby fort - the fort itself is no longer necessary.

    This is the situation at the end of the Ghorid turn:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    And this sums it up.

    Maybe the Ghaznavid dynasty will be destroyed next by Mohammad of Ghor, as it actually happened in history, or maybe they will find a way to survive and fight on.

    Everyone who read this can make his own conclusions on the Ghaznavid mistakes, but 2 big strategic decisions stand out:
    1) The Ghaznavids ruined themselves financially and predetermined the course of the campaign by overspending on troops in Turn 1. Perhaps money would have been better spent on defensive forts.
    2) Attacking the Ghorids when it is obvious the Ghorids will have an advantage in a war was a suicidal plan. Especially since the Ghaznavids failed to destroy a major Ghorid army or besiege a settlement.

    This is not meant as boasting, but is meant as a quick rookie tutorial, as we promised to provide support and guidance (even if in this case it is offered in very rough manner). Hopefully, it will be useful.

    Good luck to everyone!
    Last edited by Kavhan Isbul; December 11, 2009 at 12:11 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: BC 2.02 : Holy Lands campaign (WSR) Diplomacy and OT

    Indeed,
    I've been forced to play as the Ghanzi in one campaign on org (but later switched to Khwarez), so I never actually was able to put this tactic into effect,

    But essentially as the Ghanzi I realized that it was imperative that a first step if I was to engage with the Ghorids, needs to be done on the first turn, and this is how I was going to go about doing it..
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Okay so essentially all done on the first turn with Ghanzi, and is an imperative measure to at least start of the war on good terms.
    If you have noticed I built three fort... and at key locations in order to prevent the ghorids from sending their massive armies to protect Kabul and building a fort at these strategic locations,

    The general that was used for this was ShahZadeh Baghhian from Bamiyan, essentially I took him out of Bamiyan, and moved to the fort just North of Kabul, recruited all the mercenaries, (2 horse, 1 infantry), then I moved the infantry only and ShahZaden to the bridge right before to build another fort 2, and finally moved Shahzaden to build the 3rd fort on the other side of the bridge (He can just make), the 2 horses were used to siege Kabul from the North,
    Then I took the 3 spear-men inside Bamiyan, one occupied the fort north of Kabul, and the other 2 joined the forces north of Kabul.

    Alright then I used all the troops in Ghanzi (capital), along with all the troops in Gardez to join the Besieging army, and finally Masud Ghanznavi, and his force of troops from the south of the Ghanzi (capital) to join the forces, creating the nearly full stack you see there. Then I built all the best troops (including all the best elite horse units and infantry I could in Ghanzi(capital) and one unit reinforcements for the cities of Gardaz and Bamiyan.

    So essentially I end up with 22 gold, and running a -2000 debt
    Was it wise to spend all the money on troops, YES -- as your going to need them + the Forts will buy you some time, to prepare, Kabul will give you a small source of income (even if the enemy blows up the buildings), and your in a good position...

    However, things will get wild very soon,
    Ghorid reaction, at this point the Ghorids can't protect Kabul, they have no(limited spies) if i recall, and Kabul their only big city producing it at this point can't build it.... All they can do is build up huge forces at their own castle Peshawar, One of the armies won't reach your fort, but ther other can and with reinforcements from Peshawar you will be doomed to stop them, here is where things get intresting.
    The first fort if you can move your general out of that area, then do it, but chances are with their large besigeing it the first turn, you probabbly won't win if you pool all your forces, especially since the brige limits you to attacking with only one army, so the Key here is to wait for the Ghorids to break through your first fort, gather your troops from Ghanzi(capital), reinforcements and then hit them when they besiege your second fort...

    It will be a tough battle, and if you do win against the oncoming Ghorid onslaught, your army will be reduced to a rag tag band of troops, which is good for your economy , If you lose likewise, the Ghorids will have wasted time puncturing forts, and expending armies and they will be in heavy debt, so at least you will make em suffer.....

    Or at least thats how I see it as Ghanzi player, thats probabbly what I would do.
    Last edited by TriforceV; December 11, 2009 at 01:21 AM.
    The only think you have to fear is... Me.

    TRIFORCE.


  3. #3

    Default Re: BC 2.02 : Holy Lands campaign (WSR) Diplomacy and OT

    Is this all above has anything to do with what really happened in the campaign?

    I see it does, unfortunately with Ghaznis defeated and Sind as AI the balance of power in the East is very much screwed.
    Last edited by CiviC; December 11, 2009 at 01:41 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: BC 2.02 : Holy Lands campaign (WSR) Diplomacy and OT

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    Is this all above has anything to do with what really happened in the campaign?

    I see it does, unfortunately with Ghaznis defeated and Sind as AI the balance of power in the East is very much screwed.
    It would appear so, Considering your the Rajupts, the Ghorids will now be unstoppable,
    Good luck Civic!
    The only think you have to fear is... Me.

    TRIFORCE.


  5. #5

    Default Re: BC 2.02 : Holy Lands campaign (WSR) Diplomacy and OT

    I have thought about it and I came to the same conclusion - sieging Kabul on turn 1 and blocking the Ghorid stacks with forts seems like the best way to go, if there is no diplomacy involved and you think it would be best to get the Ghorid-Ghazni war out of the way in the very beginning.

    I am not sure what happens next turn, but if the game ends for the Ghaznavids, I suggest that we give retep219 another faction - there are many important factions currently controlled by the AI - the Turks, the KOJ (that might be a tough one as of right now), or even the Seljuks.

  6. #6

    Default Re: BC 2.02 : Holy Lands campaign (WSR) Diplomacy and OT

    There are better ways to win as Gaznavids
    "we're way way pre-alpha and what that means is there is loads of features not just in terms of the graphics but also in terms of the combat and animations that actually aren't in the game yet.So the final game is actually gonna look way way better than this!” - James Russell, CA
    Just like the elephant animation, this Carthage scenario is actually in the game, it just has a small percantage factor for showing up, that's all...

    Beware of scoundrels



  7. #7

    Default Re: BC 2.02 : Holy Lands campaign (WSR) Diplomacy and OT

    Good game, Kavhan. I suppose it's inevitable I'll blow my first hotseat with a faction such as Ghaznavids, especially when I'm too used to AI-bashing. I have to thank you for your recap of what happened...it's quite valuable as advice for me...I now realize that I should have attacked on turn one if I was to do so at all. Though I probably would have lost anyways, lol... Just one last question: How did you fight my armies with both Qutabbin Aybak and your Sultan? I based all my moves on the assumption that you couldn't do that. I turned out to be wrong, but I'm still curious....

    ...Anyways, GG. Is there any possibility I'll be able to pick up another faction, lol? I'll try to be more cautious....
    Last edited by retep219; December 11, 2009 at 03:25 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: BC 2.02 : Holy Lands campaign (WSR) Diplomacy and OT

    Quote Originally Posted by retep219 View Post
    Good game, Kavhan. I suppose it's inevitable I'll blow my first hotseat with a faction such as Ghaznavids, especially when I'm too used to AI-bashing. I have to thank you for your recap of what happened...it's quite valuable as advice for me...I now realize that I should have attacked on turn one if I was to do so at all. Though I probably would have lost anyways, lol... Just one last question: How did you fight my armies with both Qutabbin Aybak and your Sultan? I based all my moves on the assumption that you couldn't do that. I turned out to be wrong, but I'm still curious....

    ...Anyways, GG. Is there any possibility I'll be able to pick up another faction, lol? I'll try to be more cautious....
    There were two spots where I could place stacks - the square just south of Kabul, between Kabul and the besieged fort, and the square just to the West alongside it, next to the mountains. I think you got confused because of Kabul, but remember that I can move through my own cities and forts.

    It is up to Triforce to give you another faction, if the Ghaznavids are done next turn. I do not think you should be more cautious - it is a matter of timing, where indecision or rushing in prematurely are eaqually bad choices.

  9. #9

    Default Re: BC 2.02 : Holy Lands campaign (WSR) Diplomacy and OT

    An emisarry of the Seljuq Sultan of "Rum" approaches the Takavor of Armenia... The noble Christian ruler remains mysteriously unresponsive, for the time being...
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

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