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Thread: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

  1. #61
    Lord Claremorris's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    In the short run it would depend where Japan chose to keep it fleet. In early 42 I just don't see that the UK had the naval assets free to concentrated and oppose a strong Japanese effort. In any case the effort to oppose a strong Japanese action would likely have drawn away UK assets from the Med...

    Overall as it seems to me Japan had one of the biggest problems of any of the major players in that it never really set any order to its plans so its efforts were always thus executed with a fraction of its strength, moreover Japan never seems to have understood just how tilled the the long term economic of the war were. Have declared war Japan needed very much to understand that no chain of Pacific islands was worth loosing one ship or pilot for, what was needed was to act quickly before the US was up and running, and more importantly to have Germany win in Russia.

    With the clock ticking Japan needed to focus very clearly on two things - taking a hard line on the USSR and its shipping up to and even beyond Russian attacks in Manchuria that Stalin could not really spare men for. Second the Indian Ocean. even a temporary occupation and establishment on Madagascar would have severally disrupted the UK war effort.
    Also how soon were the US and UK cooperating on all code breaking? A showdown with the British in the Indian ocean (circa 42) may not yet have seen the Japanese facing the same issues it faced against the US - having its codes read.

    Certainly the effort it continued to waste in China was silly. China was not going to go on the offensive or invade Japan by itself - it was never going to a place for a decisive alteration in the balance of power (nor was a few more islands, or Hawaii, or even Australia).
    Yes, Japan certainly needed to get its priorities straightened out. China was useless to them, they could deal with China whenever they wished. Continuing to pour money and men into that bottomless pit did nothing to hurt the USSR, UK, or US and China could do nothing by itself, as you said. Japan's Non-Aggression with Russia was stupid as well. Japan could hardly successfully invade the Soviet Union, but it could raid its Pacific Coast and tie down significant numbers of Russian soldiers. And their piecemeal uncoordinated efforts across the whole Pacific stretched their resources, and the fact that the Army and Navy were not cooperating and actually undermining one another did not help things. I'd say of all the powers, Japan bungled everything the most. It had a splendid opportunity before it, and it lost it through its own incompetence. It imagined it could simply hold out against the US and UK, when it should have been assisting Germany in actually destroying the UK. The US could defeat them in the Pacific still perhaps, but it would be incredibly costly to wrench the Japanese out of India, Burma, Australia, China, the Far East of Russia, Korea and who knows, perhaps the Middle-East and Madagascar as well. And with Germany triumphant in the West, I don't see that as happening.
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  2. #62
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Uggh That last post was piss poor grammar - sorry Claremorris - my excuse is I am in the middle of rebuilding my PC after a sold BSD crash and its hard to edit in VGA video mode.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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  3. #63
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    True The Army would never have provided the kind of force Japan needed to invade India or Africa. However the Japanese had they coordinated better with Germany and a compliant Vichy could have established themselves in Madagascar and maybe Ceylon in early 42 had the army coughed up just some troops. That would have been a heavy blow to the US and UK shipping ability, and combined with a strict take on Russian shipping the Pacific could have strangled the USSR of LL supplies, while allowing better blocke runnig contacts and supply between the Japan and Germany.
    If.

    Except both Hitler and Tojo did not bother to talk to each others, even before the war started (although Hitler did not bother to talk to Mussolini too).

    Quote Originally Posted by scheuch13 View Post
    2) Japan needed oil. If roosevelt wasnt trying to get us into a war, he probably would not have cut their supply. Now the japanese could have put pressure of russias eastern front, but it would never have made a successful invasion. What it could do however is keep stalin worried about an invasion and keeping a large amount of forces in the east. It was the release of all these forces that allowed the russians to counterattack. The japanese could have also kept pushing into india. Had they captured that , it would have been a horrible blow to Britain. Without the US there is also no one to defend against an invasion of Australia/new zealand. Had japan not had its navy destroyed by the USN, then it would have been a formidable force. Perhaps they would have been able to invade the oil rich middle east.
    1. US government was already hard pressed by popular demand to impose harsh policy against Japan due to its invasion of China. Remember that, US's investment on China was second only to Great Britain, and it had a large missionary body in China. These two groups had placed a heavy pressure on US government and Roosevelt could not ignore that (not to mention these two groups were/are major elements in US).

    2. The occupation of Hainen island and Indochina was the true reason why Roosevelt threw out oil embargo - Japanese's action simply posed a direct threat to Philippine, Malaya and Dutch Indies, something Roosevelt could not ignore (which why US government agreed in mid-1940 that if Japan invaded either Malaya or Dutch Indies US would join the war).

    3. The lost of India would cause not just a serious blow on Great Britain, but means the complete collapse of North Africa theatre since that theatre was sololy supplied by India. Although I doubt Japanese could push that far since they barely squeezed ten divisions for SEA campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by uzi716 View Post
    No that can't be right, Roosevelt just isn't the kind of person who wants to plunge his nation into a massive war, he used sanctions because he disapproved of the war in China
    No, resource embargo (not just oil) was posed only after Japanese occupied Hainen island, and oil embargo was posed when Japanese occupied Indochina.
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; December 09, 2009 at 05:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  4. #64
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    If.

    Except both Hitler and Tojo did not bother to talk to each others.
    No argument - I just think that in the rush to makes ifs out of Hitler's decision here or there people often forget just how badly the Germans and Japanese failed the test in terms of cooperation and potential what ifs in 42 or even 43.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #65
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    No argument - I just think that in the rush to makes ifs out of Hitler's decision here or there people often forget just how badly the Germans and Japanese failed the test in terms of cooperation and potential what ifs in 42 or even 43.
    I always find strange how Axis memebers failed to even conduct a basic communication; when Mussolini invaded Greece Hitler was not awared it until the zero hour. Japan did not informed Germany about its Pacific ambition until last minute too. And the worst is probably Hiter's failure to even mention he was going to make a pact with Stalin in 1939, which shocked Japanese so much that an anti-Germany feeling was rised in that year.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  6. #66
    Lord Claremorris's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    I always find strange how Axis memebers failed to even conduct a basic communication; when Mussolini invaded Greece Hitler was not awared it until the zero hour. Japan did not informed Germany about its Pacific ambition until last minute too. And the worst is probably Hiter's failure to even mention he was going to make a pact with Stalin in 1939, which shocked Japanese so much that an anti-Germany feeling was rised in that year.
    In huge contrast to the Allies, who met frequently and coordinated strategy, so they weren't all pursuing their own objectives. Obviously the Axis learned nothing from the Coalition Wars of Napoleon.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Uggh That last post was piss poor grammar - sorry Claremorris - my excuse is I am in the middle of rebuilding my PC after a sold BSD crash and its hard to edit in VGA video mode.
    You needn't worry good sir. You made your point clear enough, a few grammatical inaccuracies are hardly anything new. It was still far better than the majority of posts I see around here.
    Last edited by Lord Claremorris; December 09, 2009 at 06:07 PM.
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  7. #67

    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    hitler would've wanted to attack the USA sometime soon after cosolidating europe i reckon
    he always ranted on about the jews in america

    except this time he might be able to do it with V-2 rockets, jet fighters and a possible nuke
    Hitler never had intencions to attack America or conquer the all world for that matter too much Captain America Comics friend.

    If USA never join the war I think the war would still be won by Allies. I mean Germany still had UK and USSR to deal with. USA would probaly supply UK at least. And what probaly would happen is that USSR would be from Russia Far East to Azores. Europe "Red."
    Soviet Union clearly had the power to take out the Germans. Or maybe not . I dont know if USA supplies were so important for whole war effort.Soviets had their own supplies they build a entire new industry in East that supplied the army and that was the main supplier of Weapons,Armor etc not America.
    Also the Size of URSS and the size of population would still make USSR a hard target like it show Operation Barborossa had dificults from star even with such "sucess" they had they still find many dificulties that in long run would comptly cripple their army. Pure and Simple Soviets had more men more equipement more land to spare Germans didnt mix that with harsh weather and see the result.
    As for UK the Battle of Britain prove that Invading Britain would be sill extremly hard for Germany.
    I am the one of those people that thinks the American Contribution to European Theater is overated.


    the last moment? so 41-45 is the last moment? I hope you realize that the US was also fighting Japan almost single-handedly as well. I guess the Americans didnt help contribute much, I mean its not like we supplied montgomery with desperately needed fuel, tanks and supplies as well as established a second front to help kick Rommel out of Africa. I guess we had no part in the invasion of sicily, Italy and france either. We must have just rolled a few tanks into paris and took all the credit
    Single-handedly?! You forgot about 5,600,000 Chinese ,about 2 Milion Soviets and about 3 to 4 Milion men of British Empire keep the Japanese pretty busy. The Americans contributed to the war no doubt especealy with supplies is often said by schoolars that USA paid the whole allied war effort but sometimes is seen and show in media that America won the war singlehandly is lot far from truth I would say for the tree major power USA was less important in terms of military action. And with USSR and British Empire I doubt that Germany could won in two front war like that.


    I always find strange how Axis memebers failed to even conduct a basic communication; when Mussolini invaded Greece Hitler was not awared it until the zero hour. Japan did not informed Germany about its Pacific ambition until last minute too. And the worst is probably Hiter's failure to even mention he was going to make a pact with Stalin in 1939, which shocked Japanese so much that an anti-Germany feeling was rised in that year.
    You forgot to notice that Japan when attack USA wanted the surpise factor and informing Germany that would alarm Allied COmmand that had crack the communacations of Axis would surely ruined that.
    As for pact with Stalin. Japan had smilar pacts with Soviet Union of non-aggersion dont see how is that supresing.
    The Allied lack a lot of communacation aswell if wasnt for geography I even doubt that Alliance would exist Germany was just in middle of great super powers.
    Last edited by RomanSoldier9001; December 09, 2009 at 08:24 PM.

  8. #68
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by RomanSoldier9001 View Post
    You forgot to notice that Japan when attack USA wanted the surpise factor and informing Germany that would alarm Allied COmmand that had crack the communacations of Axis would surely ruined that.
    As for pact with Stalin. Japan had smilar pacts with Soviet Union of non-aggersion dont see how is that supresing.
    The Allied lack a lot of communacation aswell if wasnt for geography I even doubt that Alliance would exist Germany was just in middle of great super powers.
    [/I]
    1. Nonsense; no one says Japan had to inform Germany every bit of their plan, but Japanese did not even provide the information to German that they were thinking attacking Allies.

    2. The non-aggressive pact was concluded after Hitler made a pact with Stalin. The pact was actually a shock reaction after Japanese learned Hitler made a pact with Stalin, and Japanese government felt "abandoned" by their German ally, hence Japanese hastly prepared a cease fire for fearing Soviet might attack them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  9. #69

    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by RomanSoldier9001 View Post
    Single-handedly?! You forgot about 5,600,000 Chinese ,about 2 Milion Soviets and about 3 to 4 Milion men of British Empire keep the Japanese pretty busy.
    where are you getting your numbers from? The russians and british did not lose millions of men to the japanese. I will give it to the chinese they did their part and the brits to a smaller degree.


    The Americans contributed to the war no doubt especealy with supplies is often said by schoolars that USA paid the whole allied war effort but sometimes is seen and show in media that America won the war singlehandly is lot far from truth I would say for the tree major power USA was less important in terms of military action. And with USSR and British Empire I doubt that Germany could won in two front war like that.
    we are talking about the war in the pacific not the war in europe. And America did most of the leg work in defeating Japan. I certainly hope your not going to suggest that the american part in the pacific campaign was little.

  10. #70
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by scheuch13 View Post
    we are talking about the war in the pacific not the war in europe. And America did most of the leg work in defeating Japan. I certainly hope your not going to suggest that the american part in the pacific campaign was little.
    Well, American did a good job on air and sea, but on land Chinese was far more important than any Allies...
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  11. #71
    Hakkapeliitta's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Yes they win. Germany's only chance was a quick victory, and when they didn't achieve that in 1941, they were doomed. Germany can't keep up with the British and the Soviets in a war of attrition, and better soldiers and better tactics won't help them, and neither won't the fact that the allies were more capable strategically than the Germans.

  12. #72

    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Well, American did a good job on air and sea, but on land Chinese was far more important than any Allies...
    Ah so, completely pushing japan off its gained territory and back to its homeland...that was just what exactly?



    just off for a stroll on the beach I guess.

    some of the most vicious fighting in the war occured in the pacific. The only other areas probably comparable would be stalingrad and leningrad.

  13. #73
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by scheuch13 View Post
    Ah so, completely pushing japan off its gained territory and back to its homeland...that was just what exactly?



    just off for a stroll on the beach I guess.

    some of the most vicious fighting in the war occured in the pacific. The only other areas probably comparable would be stalingrad and leningrad.
    Pushing a few thousands Japanese troops each time was nothing awesome; in fact, American only started facing large Japanese force during Philippine and after, and never really fought any elite Japanese troops nor faced more than fify thousands Japanese each time.

    Now, if American was fighting two millions angry Japanese soldiers...
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  14. #74

    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Believe me the Americans against 2 mil Japs, the American would win. Americans had more anger and more spirit to fight the Japanese. "Unleashed a sleeping giant" A Japanese Admiral or General said this. If he said this it ment that the Americans would come after the Japanese with everything they got. We did and we killed them. Americans were just better than the Japanese. No doubt in anyone's mind that the Japs would have lost. We did't have to do a land invasion or nuke them to beat them. That is how bad we had the Japanese. Stuck on Japan and China with no navy and no whre to go. If we had no nuke we would've just done regular bombing 24/7. A few years or months later Japanese would surrender. The loss of their navy shows that the Japanese were going to in fact loose. BTW Hellheaven it was something awesome because the Japanese fought to the death. Two generals did suicide because of honor. We basically had the Japanes pinned down like a wrestling match.
    Got nothing...

  15. #75
    Sir Pignans's Avatar The bringer of cheese.
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    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by pericles_plato View Post
    Believe me the Americans against 2 mil Japs, the American would win. Americans had more anger and more spirit to fight the Japanese. "Unleashed a sleeping giant" A Japanese Admiral or General said this. If he said this it ment that the Americans would come after the Japanese with everything they got. We did and we killed them. Americans were just better than the Japanese. No doubt in anyone's mind that the Japs would have lost. We did't have to do a land invasion or nuke them to beat them. That is how bad we had the Japanese. Stuck on Japan and China with no navy and no whre to go. If we had no nuke we would've just done regular bombing 24/7. A few years or months later Japanese would surrender. The loss of their navy shows that the Japanese were going to in fact loose. BTW Hellheaven it was something awesome because the Japanese fought to the death. Two generals did suicide because of honor. We basically had the Japanes pinned down like a wrestling match.
    Yes, I mean, you Americans winning, had nothing to do with the vicious fighting on land (In places such as Burma) and indeed, we ALL know that the Japanese had an equal amount of resources to America and any lack of resources had nothing to do with their loss... (Being sarcastic)

    And lets not kid ourselves here, Banzai charges are all well and good... but unless you have as many men as the Russians then... it didnt really work out unless you had as many men as the Russains did... which the Japnaneese didn't, for example, on Iwo Jima some captain, led a banzai charge of over 1000 men, and let me assure you, those guys would have been more of a problem in bunkers rather than charging into your guns.

    And you mentioned the Japanese generals committing suicide because of honor a thing proving America's 'greatness'? I mean, I'm not sure which generals your talking about here, but if they were any good, they could have planned better defending strategies and such later in the war.

    I mean, don;t get me wrong the Japanese were fearsome opponents, but some of there tactics and traditions were... damaging to there war effort.

    And you mentioned the nuke, I think the president/generals only authorized the nuke because he thought millions of Americans would die (Might be an exaggeration, don't have the exact quote at this time).

    In my opinion the only main reason the Americans won (There were others as well but this is the main one in my opinion) was that they were a economic powerhouse.... while the Japanese... were not.
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  16. #76

    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Pushing a few thousands Japanese troops each time was nothing awesome; in fact, American only started facing large Japanese force during Philippine and after, and never really fought any elite Japanese troops nor faced more than fify thousands Japanese each time.

    Now, if American was fighting two millions angry Japanese soldiers...
    gee lets see, put 100,000+ men on a tiny island usually only a few miles wide/long where one side is entrenched so deeply that they have tunnels throughout the whole island which means that soldiers need to dig the enemy out of every single hole one at a time.

    Right, sounds like a pushover.
    America conducted D-Day style landings dozens of times over in the pacific, and the fighting was much much worse.

    Just on okinawa alone the japanese suffered 110,000 killed and the americans suffered 90,000 casualties.

  17. #77

    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans View Post
    Yes, I mean, you Americans winning, had nothing to do with the vicious fighting on land (In places such as Burma) and indeed, we ALL know that the Japanese had an equal amount of resources to America and any lack of resources had nothing to do with their loss... (Being sarcastic)

    And lets not kid ourselves here, Banzai charges are all well and good... but unless you have as many men as the Russians then... it didnt really work out unless you had as many men as the Russains did... which the Japnaneese didn't, for example, on Iwo Jima some captain, led a banzai charge of over 1000 men, and let me assure you, those guys would have been more of a problem in bunkers rather than charging into your guns.

    And you mentioned the Japanese generals committing suicide because of honor a thing proving America's 'greatness'? I mean, I'm not sure which generals your talking about here, but if they were any good, they could have planned better defending strategies and such later in the war.

    I mean, don;t get me wrong the Japanese were fearsome opponents, but some of there tactics and traditions were... damaging to there war effort.

    And you mentioned the nuke, I think the president/generals only authorized the nuke because he thought millions of Americans would die (Might be an exaggeration, don't have the exact quote at this time).

    In my opinion the only main reason the Americans won (There were others as well but this is the main one in my opinion) was that they were a economic powerhouse.... while the Japanese... were not.
    Don't forget Australian and Brits as well. Without them we would have lost bud. God Bless the Brits i always say. Quote is something like this, "I can not look a parent in the face knowing i sent them to their children into Japan". Good quote, as of you don't have exact one but it's on the same lines.
    We didn't need USSR. USSR could have sipped the vodka eating popcorn watching us cousins do some real fighting. One thing i have pride beside American, is British. You our are cousins.
    Got nothing...

  18. #78
    Sir Pignans's Avatar The bringer of cheese.
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    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by pericles_plato View Post
    Don't forget Australian and Brits as well. Without them we would have lost bud. God Bless the Brits i always say. Quote is something like this, "I can not look a parent in the face knowing i sent them to their children into Japan". Good quote, as of you don't have exact one but it's on the same lines.
    We didn't need USSR. USSR could have sipped the vodka eating popcorn watching us cousins do some real fighting. One thing i have pride beside American, is British. You our are cousins.
    Well we definitely didn't need the Russians in the Pacific, I was never arguing that, I've just always thought that if Hitler hadn't invaded Russia, europe wouldn't be the same today.

    (With the possible exception of G.B)
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  19. #79

    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by pericles_plato View Post
    Don't forget Australian and Brits as well. Without them we would have lost bud. God Bless the Brits i always say. Quote is something like this, "I can not look a parent in the face knowing i sent them to their children into Japan". Good quote, as of you don't have exact one but it's on the same lines.
    We didn't need USSR. USSR could have sipped the vodka eating popcorn watching us cousins do some real fighting. One thing i have pride beside American, is British. You our are cousins.
    Yes I agree that the Americans never needed the Soviets to crush Japan. In the same way, the Soviets did not need any allied landing in Western Europe to crush Germany. Lend-Lease and all that is arguably important, but did the Soviets actually need D-Day? Nope. BTW, just so you know the Chinese did a lot of damage to the Japanese in the war...
    Last edited by Applesmack; December 10, 2009 at 07:58 PM.

  20. #80

    Default Re: If the Americans never joined the fight against Hitler, would the Alliess still beat the Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by pericles_plato View Post
    Don't forget Australian and Brits as well. Without them we would have lost bud. God Bless the Brits i always say. Quote is something like this, "I can not look a parent in the face knowing i sent them to their children into Japan". Good quote, as of you don't have exact one but it's on the same lines.
    We didn't need USSR. USSR could have sipped the vodka eating popcorn watching us cousins do some real fighting. One thing i have pride beside American, is British. You our are cousins.
    What is "real fighting"....You don't think Stalingrad was "real fighting"? Name me a single battle in the West that matches that one. Then again, you probably think that Enemy of the Gates is fact.. And how would a massive power like the US lost in the Pacific without the help of the Australians or brits?...After Midway it was all over.

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