The Europa Barbarorum Wonders Project

[bobbin]

What about the Externsteine in Germany?

hg

The Externsteine is a narrow and strung-out sandstone rock formation in the Teutoburg Forest in eastern North Rhine-Westphalia near Detmold, which at its northwestern end emerges from the concealing vegetation of the forest to constitute the actual Externsteine - a remarkable composition of enormous rocks and stand-alone pillars in a region which is otherwise poor in rocks.

Its mostly known for its alleged importance as religious site for the pre-Christian Saxon tribes in the Early Middle Ages, who fought against the Catholic Franks under Charlemagne during the Saxon Wars (772-805 AD) to preserve their political and religious independence before ultimately being subjugated and Christianised.

There are no significant archaeological findings for the pre-Christian area though, so it's actually impossible to verify if the Externsteine were of any special relevance to the surrounding tribes during the timeframe covered by EB.
But as that part of the map isn't exactly crowed with Wonders, maybe it will get a chance - or it could beef up the content of the appropriate province building description.


Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOY0yGkbINw

Pictures:
http://www.google.de/images?hl=de&cl...ed=0CDIQsAQwAQ

Information (in German - I know it's wikipedia, but it's an unbiased and detailed article; couldn't find any useful information in english - sorry):
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externsteine

The Externsteine is already a wonder, Oudysseos missed a few when he made up the list. From what I've heard the is some considerable doubt (like you said) as to whether the Germanic tribes ever even used the place, no finds pre-dating the Christian era is very odd for such a supposedly important site.

[skeuophoros]

The Externsteine is already a wonder, Oudysseos missed a few when he made up the list. From what I've heard the is some considerable doubt (like you said) as to whether the Germanic tribes ever even used the place, no finds pre-dating the Christian era is very odd for such a supposedly important site.

Concerning research it's a shame that the Germanic tribes were illiterate during EB's timeframe and that they didn't have truly literate neighbours either (until the Roman expansion), so one can only argue that it is not implausible that Germanic and before them Celtic tribes may have used the Externsteine as somekind of religious site (for astronomical or other ritual purposes).
But as we know there is non valid data to actually verify that assumption, it would be best to state that (= the unsureness) in the province or wonder description - if not done already.

And it's also quite delicate that the Externsteine were used by (parts of) the National-Socialistic-German-Labour-Party (= NSDAP / Nazis) to backup their unscientific and genocidal race theories. As the SS-commander Heinrich Himmler (as chairman of an Externsteine-foundation founded on his behalf) and the infamous "Nazi"-archaeologist Wilhelm Teudt tried to integrate the Externsteine - as an ancient holy Germanic site - into their fascist ideology.
But nowadays the Externsteine are mainly a tourist attraction and gathering place for New-Age-ers and peaceful Neo-Pagans who celebrate the winter and summer solstices there (http://www.sacred-destinations.com/germany/externsteine / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkVGn...eature=related).

[bobbin]

Concerning research it's a shame that the Germanic tribes were illiterate during EB's timeframe and that they didn't have truly literate neighbours either (until the Roman expansion), so one can only argue that it is not implausible that Germanic and before them Celtic tribes may have used the Externsteine as somekind of religious site (for astronomical or other ritual purposes).
But as we know there is non valid data to actually verify that assumption, it would be best to state that (= the unsureness) in the province or wonder description - if not done already.

It's the distinct lack of artefacts between the stone age and 9th century AD that's the main problem. The Germans, like many other peoples, tended to leave a lot of votive offerings, the fact that nothing of this sort has been found is very strange to say the least.

We actually have quite a few Roman sources concerning the Germans, Tacitus being the main one.

[Hurlbut]

It is extremely likely that the precursors to the Saxon tribes, germanic tribes as well, would have viewed it as a scared/religious site. After all, someone had to have taught and passed down the stories to the Saxons.

We actually have quite a few Roman sources concerning the Germans, Tacitus being the main one.

That's good and all, but you do have to remember that they were very much biased and rarely objective. That we're viewing the Germans from the outsiders' point of view.

[bobbin]

It is extremely likely that the precursors to the Saxon tribes, germanic tribes as well, would have viewed it as a scared/religious site. After all, someone had to have taught and passed down the stories to the Saxons.

My point was that the identification of the Saxon Irminsul with the Externsteine is highly flawed and most likely wrong, so if the site was not important to the Saxons it wouldn't have been to their ancestors. Apart from the stone age tools the earliest artefacts are Christian and from the 9th century, that isn't something you can ignore.

That's good and all, but you do have to remember that they were very much biased and rarely objective. That we're viewing the Germans from the outsiders' point of view.

Well you never want to take a textual source word for word, thats when you compare with similar works and archaeological studies to get a more realistic picture.

[Haertelius Magnus]

the suncircle of Goseck

http://www.sonnenobservatorium-goseck.de/

[Atraphoenix]

Bagastāna

which means 'place where the gods dwell', was the name of a village and a remarkable, isolated rock along the road that connected the capitals of Babylonia and Media, Babylon and Ecbatana (modern Hamadan). Many travellers passed along this place, so it was the logical place for the Persian king Darius I the Great (522-486) to proclaim his military victories. The famous Behistun inscription was engraved on a cliff about 100 meters off the ground. Darius tells us how the supreme god Ahuramazda choose him to dethrone an usurper named Gaumāta, how he set out to quell several revolts, and how he defeated his foreign enemies.



Screens :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Info: http://www.livius.org/be-bm/behistun/behistun01.html

[konstantis]

hi to you all i wont put any info or links because everyone knows about it and its name is The Library of Alexandria! I know that the ptolemies already have many wonders but this is one of the most well known and it wasnt in eb1. Thank you for your time

[elizabethpwalker]

some really interesting pieces of information here! thanx guys for your posts

[AntigonGonat]

I think you should put this wonder,its called Kokino,a 3800 years old meghalithic observatory placed in ancient Paionia,today in Macedonia...

for more information :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokino

Or Kuklica - the stone town
In the area of Kratovo near village Kuklica, a 10 million years old “stone town” is established. There are many legends and myths about the existence of the ‘Dolls’ but the most famous is the one that says that the stone figures are wedding guests that were cursed by a forsaken bride who turned them into rocks. There are 120 stone figures, one next to another and they are up to 10 meters high.

The legend has it that once upon a time a boy from the village of Kuklica (which is above the stone town) couldn’t decide which girl to marry so he asked two girls to be his brides. The weddings with both of them were planned to take place in one day. There used to be a tradition that there mustn’t be two weddings in one day, because the brides must not see each other during their weddings – it was considered to be bad luck. One of the brides, not knowing about this tradition saw that there is another wedding in the same day and ran out of her house to see who is getting married. When she saw her husband to be with another girl she cursed all of them: "Let God turn you all into rocks, even me" and all people turned into rocks.

According to another legend, the existence of the stone figures is very different. There used to be a forest in this area but due to wars it was burned down. Soon the area became a wasteland. The temperatures were very low and when the army passed through the wasteland all of the soldiers turned into rocks.
However, scientists do not agree with the legends. According to them, the stone figures were formed 10 million years ago by tectonic erosion, from minerals that dissolve in water. As time went by, nature created masterpieces. Locals say that every 5-6 years new figures appear.

[Casual Tactician]

Regarding the already confirmed Port of Carthage... Have a look at this screenshot from Paeninsula Italica II (still in beta-phase though), which has a superb miniture model of the port on the campaing map, where it covers the docking area. Something similar would be some sweet eye candy for the EBII map.



Maybe you already know about this miniture model or have planned something in that direction for EBII or even dismissed the idea - then just ignore this post.

PS: A miniture model like this might also be a solution for Isildor's problem (in post #886 in the FAQ), at least regarding Carthage.

[Ravager123]

Regarding the already confirmed Port of Carthage... Have a look at this screenshot from Paeninsula Italica II (still in beta-phase though), which has a superb miniture model of the port on the campaing map, where it covers the docking area. Something similar would be some sweet eye candy for the EBII map.



Maybe you already know about this miniture model or have planned something in that direction for EBII or even dismissed the idea - then just ignore this post.

PS: A miniture model like this might also be a solution for Isildor's problem (in post #886 in the FAQ), at least regarding Carthage.

Thats class!

[Moros]

you know how many unique cities there were?

[XSamatan]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

199!

[petertel123]

donars oak
a sacred tree to the german "chatti" tribe, famous for being cut down by boniface in 723 (it was probably over a thousand years old though so it fits the time frame)

[Casual Tactician]

you know how many unique cities there were?

Rhetorical question?
I'll take that as a "will not be implemented". Ok!

[james.ep3]

Has there been any thought of what structurs may have been the most important? What I mean is has anyone gone through and researched which of these important ancient structures even though today we may see them as historicaly significant, were in thier own time liitle more than sites of minor importance. Say for example many of the famous ancient mesopotamian citiews which today we excavate to try and find out more about mans first civilisations were in this time period just other cities or forgoten ruins only a few ancients would have cared about them so we can't exsactly call them wonders. Also as I know it has been in other mods will we see unique settlements like in Third age totla war? I geus only for the major cities .ie. Roma, Athene, Kart-Hadast, Babilonia(spelt it wrong) these cities were famous and proberly do deserve to look unique as well as be given unique structres. One other sugestion the white horses may not have been around during this time period much debate surrounds the time of thier orrigin so it might be prudent to exclude them. I would like to see the valley of the kings included in the list of wonders, because it was an important historical sight.

[the persian Immortal]

The Arg-é Bam (ارگ بم in Persian, "Bam citadel") was the largest adobe building in the world, located in Bam, a city in the Kermān Province of southeastern Iran. It is listed by UNESCO as part of the World Heritage Site "Bam and its Cultural Landscape". This enormous citadel on the Silk Road was built before 500 BC and remained in use until 1850 AD. It is not known for certain why it was then abandoned.
The entire building was a large fortress in whose heart the citadel itself was located, but because of the impressive look of the citadel, which forms the highest point, the entire fortress is named the Bam Citadel.
On December 26, 2003, the Citadel was almost completely destroyed by an earthquake, along with much of the rest of Bam and its environs. A few days after the earthquake, the then Iranian President Mohammad Khatami announced that the Citadel would be rebuilt.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arg-e_Bam

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I will try to post more wonders of Iran soon till then tell me what you think about arge bam

[the persian Immortal]

Bisotun is an archaeological site located along a historical trade route in the Kermanshah Province of Iran, containing remains dating from pre-historic times through the history of ancient Persia. Its bears unique testimony to the Persian empire and the interchange of influences in art and writing in the region.

Its primary monument is the Bisotun Inscription, made in 521 BC by Darius I the Great when he conquered the Persian throne. The inscription is written in 3 languages: Elamite, Babylonian and Old Persian. It is to cuneiform script what the Rosetta Stone is to Egyptian hieroglyphs: the document most crucial in the decipherment of a previously lost script. A British army officer, Sir Henry Rawlinson, had the inscription transcribed in two parts, in 1835 and 1843.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisotun

[Rinan]

The only ancient 'wonder' from the Netherlands I could suggest are the so called 'Hunebedden' (and they have already been mentioned in this thread). Even so, they're not very different from other dolmen found in Germany, Britanny, Ireland, etc. Next to that I don't know if they had any significance in EB's time period, so I suppose that doesn't make them very likely to be in EB. They're supposedly graves. The stones were transported to the area during an ice age, and used by people to be built into the current structures around 3400 BC.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Since there so many dolmen all over Europe, maybe something more general can be done with them?



@Persian Immortal: Slightly off-topic but have you been to Bam? Ever since I learned of its existence it saddens me that such a beautiful site is destroyed by an earthquake.