The Europa Barbarorum Wonders Project

[oudysseos]

Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans.

One of the wonderful things about Europa Barbarorum for RTW was, well, its Wonders.
In place of the very few and Graeco-Romanocentric "wonders" from vanilla Rome Total War, the EB team researched and implemented more than 70 historically accurate man-made and natural Unique Buildings of the ancient world, from the British Isles to India. Not only did they appear as buildings, with descriptions and bonuses; many of them were made into Battle Map models, so you could fight in the shade of Stonehenge or between the feet of the Sphinx at Giza.
Europa Barbarorum 2 will retain many if not most of these features, but the introduction of a unique Province Building for every region gives us the opportunity to expand this kind of content.
And this is where you, the community, can be part of the project. There are many wonderful features of the classical world, and the success of the Quotes Project has convinced us that our community of fans has a lot to contribute.
We are looking for two kinds of things.
1. "Wonders of the Ancient World" that could be made into Unique Buildings as in EB1.
2. Significant and interesting features of geography or culture that could be part of the Province Building descriptions.
Don't be overly concerned with categorizing your submissions. Ultimately the team will decide how best to use the material. It goes without saying that we are only interested in unique features that are contemporary to 3rd, 2nd and 1st centuries BCE: the Eiffel Tower is very unique and wonderful, but wouldn't be appropriate for Europa Barbarorum.

The Rules
1. No Spam will be tolerated. Spurious, "funny", or obscene posts will be deleted and the poster reported to global moderators if necessary. If the Team's time is wasted on policing juvenile spam, the project will be abandoned and the thread locked and/or deleted.
2. Look at the list of Wonders already in EB or already proposed. Posting something that is already there just wastes everyone's time. A search of the thread will help determine if your idea has already been posted.
3. The Team will decide which wonders will be included. There may be an upper limit to how many are possible, and overall balance will also be a consideration. Ultimately, we'll decide what goes in the release, although anyone can modify their own version if they wish.
4. Do Not Overdo It with Images. Please be considerate of other forum members who may have slower internet connexions or older computers: if you have a big image, use thumbnails or [spoil] tags to minimize its impact. Feel free to hyper-link to images on Wikipedia or other sites rather than posting them directly here.
5. Do the Research. Don't just post a name- we need some information about whatever it is you think should be included. Bear in mind that neolithic sites like Newgrange may well have disappeared by the Iron Age, only to be rediscovered by modern archaeology. We need some evidence that the site was known to the people of EB.
6. Be Original. Do not just copy and paste Wikipedia articles- if you care enough about a cool feature of the ancient world to suggest it to us, care enough to write your own description.

There is no cut-and-dried format in this project: the best way to exemplify what it is you would be doing is to provide you with a few examples.

New Wonder Proposal: The Vale of the White Horse

The White Horse of Uffington, with its elegant lines of white chalk bedrock, is thought to be the oldest hill figure in Britain. The image is a stylised representation of a horse (some would say dragon) and is thought to date back as far as 1000BC in the late Bronze Age. This is by far the oldest of all the white horses, and is of an entirely different design to the others. Unlike the solid and more or less naturalistic figures of the other horses, the Uffington white horse is formed from stylized curving lines some ten feet or less wide, and its length of around 365 feet makes it over twice as long as the longest of the Wiltshire horses.
The original purpose of this horse is unknown. It may have been the emblem of a local tribe, and have been cut as a totem or badge marking their land, or it may have had a religious purpose or significance. The horse-goddess Epona was worshipped by the Celts in Gaul, and she had a counterpart in Britain, Rhiannon, so the Uffington white horse may have been cut by adherents of a cult of the horse-goddess.
Alternatively, the horse could have been cut by worshippers of the sun god Belinos or Belenus, who was associated with horses. He was sometimes depicted on horseback, and Bronze and Iron Age sun chariots were shown as being drawn by horses. Conceivably, if this suggestion is correct, the horse could have been cut on the shallower slope at the top of the hill in order to be seen from above by the god himself.
The Uffington white horse can be seen from up to twenty miles away in good conditions. It can be seen close up from the top of nearby Dragon Hill, but is perhaps best viewed from three or four miles away, being on the very top of the escarpment where the slope is less steep.

The Manger is a strangely shaped valley, which is thought to have been formed by the melting of ice in the last Ice Age. Folklore suggests that the manger is the supernatural feeding place for the White Horse, which would travel from its vantage point on the crest of the hill on moonlit nights.

Dragon Hill is a low flat-topped mound situated in the valley below the White Horse. Although later legends has it as the place where St George slew the dragon, the flat, bare top seems to have been man-made sometime in the later Bronze Age. As it affords a good view of the Horse, it is assumed that it was built for this purpose.

Province Description Material: The British Isles
The Cliffs of Moher

Dún Aonghasa

The Ridgeway, Sweet Track, Icknield Way

Cruachán Aigle

Here is a list of the Unique Buildings from EB1, roughly divided by geographical region. Please, study this list before you submit a suggestion for a new Wonder that we already have. Most of these will appear in EB2.

British Isles
Cairncalladryrdan (The Old Standing Stones)
Caernahfronynys (The Calanish Stones)
Teamhaidh Cnocinhaofan (Holy Hill of Tara)
Ynys Duwall (Island of Darkness)
Gaul
Cairnaichaeoriam (The Place of Many Stones)
Ogmioteriam Odemorix (The Great Gallic Council)
Tolosa (Place of Lakes)
Germania, Baltic, and Thrace
Barrocandoa (The Amber Route)
Glazowegoz (The Amber Route)
Laguz Wīhoz (The Holy Lake)
Kogaionon (The Sacred Mountain)
Limios Alsos (The Sacred Grove)
Mōristaigōnez (Marshland Footbridges)
Nerthouz Agwijōn Wīhā (Sanctuary of Nerthuz)
Sammallahdenmaki Cairns
Iberia
Akroterion Hieron (The Sacred Cape)
HaMigdalim Sel Herqal (Pillars of Herakles)
HaMitsbot HaBaleariot (Cyclopean Monuments of the Baleares)
Italy, Greece, Balkans
Aigai (Makedonian Royal Tombs)
Akropolis Athenaia (The Athenian Akropolis)
Avernvs Lacvs (Lake Avernus)
Delphinion (Oracle of Apollo at Delphi)
Diolkos (Isthmos Causeway)
Dodone (Oracle of Zeus Dodonaios)
(Paestum Temples)
Eikon tou Dios (The Statue of Zeus)
Elektrine Keleuthos (The Amber Route)
Garganus Mons et Foresta Umbra (Mount Gargano and the Ghostly Forest)
HaMiqdasim HaAgrigentim (Agrigento Temples)
HaMiqdasim Ha'Attiqim Sel Malta (Megalithic Maltese Temples)
HaNuraghim HaSardinim (Sardinian Nuraghi)
Hiera Isthmia (Isthmian Games)
Hiera Nemea (Nemean Games)
Hiera Olympia (Olympic Games)
Hiera Pythia (Pythian Games)
Mons Capitolinus et Templvm Iovis Optimi Maximi (The Capitoline Hill and Temple of Jupiter Best and Greatest)
Africa
(Garamante Royal Cemetry)
HaNamal WeHa'Homot Sel Qarthadast (The Port and Walls of Carthage)
HaMiqdasim Sel Ba'al-Hammon WeAstarot (Ba'al and Astarot's Temple Complexes)
Mitsbat HaPilaenim (Altar of the Philaeni)
Egypt
Ammonion (Oracle of Zeus-Ammon)
A'ssakhr 'LMaghribi 'LAthim (The Great Marib Dam)
Bab el Mandeb (Red Sea Straits)
Gebel Barkal (Pyramids of Gebel Barkal)
HaHar HaQados (The Sacred Mountain)
Megales Pyramides (Great Pyramids of Gizeh)
Ho Taphos Tou Megalou Alexandrou (Tomb of Megas Alexandros)
Ochetos Arabikos (Nile-Red Sea Canal)
Nekropolis Thebaie (The Theban Nekropolis)
Pharos Alexandreias (Lighthouse of Alexandreia)
Philai, Edfu, Abu Simbel
Arabia
Ka'bah (Ka'bah at Mecca)
Mahram Bilqis (Temple of the Moon God)
Asia Minor
Artemision Ephesou (Temple of Artemis at Ephesos)
Asklepeion of Kos (Temple Complex of Asklepios and Hygeia)
Basileioi Taphoi Pontou (Royal Tombs of the Kings of Pontos)
Chrysokeros (The Golden Horn)
Drunemeton
Mausoleion Halikarnassou (Mausoleion of Halikarnassos)
Rhodios Kolossos (Kolossos of Rhodos)
Troia (The Site of Troy)
Persia, Mesopotamia, Caucasus
Akroterion Hormozon (Cape Hormozoi - Straits of Hormuz)
Akroterion Makon (Cape Makai - The Straits of Hormuz)
Ereipia Babyloniaka (The Ruins of Babylon)
Heliopolis (The Sacred City of Helios)
Kedroi Phoinikikai (Cedars of Lebanon)
Keleuthos Bombykike (The Silk Road)
Karahunj (Singing Stones)
Mega Agalma Anaitidos (Great Cult Statue of Anahita)
Odos Persike Basilike (Persian Royal Road)
Megas Naos Persikos Anaitidos (Great Persian Temple of Anahita)
Parsa (Persepolis)
Pasargadai (Pasargadai and Tomb of Kyros)
Râh-e Abrisham (The Silk Road)
To Hieron en tois Hierosolymois (The Holy Temple in Hierosolyma)
Van (Great Citadel and City of Van)
Shamiram-su (The Great Canal of Menua)
India
Alexandrou Bomoi Indikoi (Indian Altars of Alexandros)
Dharmaraja Thupa (Stupa of the King of the Dharma)
Siva Mandir (Indian Temple of Siva)
Far East
Alexandrou Bomoi Eschatoi (Alexander's Furthest Altars)
Sauromatae I Khashaya Nygad Kuybyrtae (Sarmatian Royal Tombs)
Skuda I Khashaya Nygad Kuybyrtae (Skythian Royal Tombs)
Ustyurt Plateau Sanctuaries
Varkana Drubustih (Hyrkanian Defensive Wall)

[oudysseos]

This is a list of proposed material. None of these Wonders are in EB1, and they may or may not be used for EB2.
British Isles
Vale of the White Horse
Ridgeway, Sweet Track, etc.
Cliffs of Moher
Croagh Padraig
Dun Aengus
Gaul
Germania, the Baltic and Thrace
Iberia
Italy
Filitosa, Corsica
Greece and the Balkans
Africa
Egypt
Mouseion and Library of Alexandria
Temple to Horus at Edfu
Arabia
Asia Minor
Temple of Apollo at Didyma
Persia, Mesopotamia and the Caucasus
Masada
India
Sudarsana Lake in Saurashtra
Far East

[oudysseos]

Here are some ideas to start all of you off with: some wonderous features that I think would be worthwhile looking into. These are just suggestions- feel free to look anywhere within the EB world.

The Idaean Cave on Crete
Karatepe in Cilicia
Pithecussae Island (Iscia) of Italy
Jebel Aqra/Mount Casios in Phoenicia
The Corycian Cave in Greece
The Severn Bore (tides make the river flow backwards) and the Two Kings
The Fiery Pool of Sulis
Droitwich Salt Springs in Worcestershire

[The Wicked]

Greece Mount Olympus home of the 12 Gods (nothing more to say....)

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, here are a few thoughts that occur to me. They're pretty famous, so I hope you'll forgive me if I don't post lengthy information about them.

1. The cave of the Sibyl at Cumae
2. The temple/festival of Demeter at Eleusis
3. Hilltop rock tombs of Lycia

[Smeel]

The King's grave in Kivik

The King's grave is a unusally grand Nordic Bronze age Burial site in southern Sweden. It's size and form is unusal to contemporary graves in europe, and contains two cists containing big stones adorned with petroglyphs. It is usually thought of containing two graves, but a study of the bones has found out that the site has been used at least three different times during the span 1400-800 bc.

The wikipedia page
Analysis of the bones (briefly in english and in Swedish)


I know it was used much earlier than the eb timeframe, but if a site is proved to been used(at times) for 600 years, I think people knew about it. And we don't know how big it was originally. It was undiscovered until the 18th century, and been used forgod knows how long as a quarry.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[clone]

mount olympus

[usmell]

Deleted.

[usmell]

Sorry, I made a suggestion, but it was already in the game. My bad.

[oudysseos]

I am having a little trouble with my internet connexion (will be fixed soon) so I haven't been updating this thread- but I have to say, only Smeel seems to have gotten the spirit of it so far (that's a good suggestion, too).

Just typing, "Mount Olympus" isn't really what I'm looking for- each Unique Building needs an original description of at least 100 words. Have a look on the other EBII forums on the org- there are some good ideas that have been posted there.

[Isildor]

I would love to see some of the old sumerian city ruins in EB II. There are a lot of possibilities:

Ur
Uruk
Larsa
Kish
Assur
Ninve

All this cities have an interesting history and important monuments which could be still seen in the timeframe of EB II. Whole books are about them and I wouldn't know what is important enough to be writen and what not, but my main problem is that my English is quiete arwful. Therefore you may exuse that I don't write an essay for each one.

But it would be cool to have some of this cities as ruin (therefore as wonders) between Euphrat and Tigris. They would give the player the possibility to learn even more about the old history of this important area.

A text about Uruk could even use the descriptions of the Gilgamesch epos to underline how important this city was.

[oudysseos]

Isildur, those aren't bad ideas, but we'd need some more information. Post in your native language, if it's German, French, Spanish, Greek, Romanian, Dutch, Italian- we can handle those.

The main point is how visible would any of these sites be in 272 BCE? Ur, for example, was abandoned around 500 BCE, and 230 years later, I bet that the Ziggurat was just a big pile of bricks. Can you find any early mentions of it or the other sites? You might try Strabo.

[James the Red]

The 'palace' of Knossos in Crete, the settlement was (probably) the center of the Minoan civilization before its collapse. (and too bad it did)

The city of Knossos remained inhabited in the Roman periods, But today it is ruins, but with much of the Minoan art intact.
It is a grand structure, its the biggest archeological site on Crete.

I think it should be included in EB2. Here are some videos I found on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABl0P2hPnLY

This one marks the Palace as the "7th wonder of the Greek world"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjo5A...eature=related

Here is an artists depiction of the Palace.

[Engel]

For the Greeks, if you don´t have enough you could look at the Cyclopian walls of the Mycenean Fort-Palace/Cities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Li...te-Mycenae.jpg

Or the Long Walls of Athens and Piraeus
http://www.livius.org/lo-lt/long_walls/long_walls.html

In the northen european areas you could take a look at bog sacrifeces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_bodies
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bog/iron-nf.html

[Isildor]

Isildur, those aren't bad ideas, but we'd need some more information. Post in your native language, if it's German, French, Spanish, Greek, Romanian, Dutch, Italian- we can handle those.

The main point is how visible would any of these sites be in 272 BCE? Ur, for example, was abandoned around 500 BCE, and 230 years later, I bet that the Ziggurat was just a big pile of bricks. Can you find any early mentions of it or the other sites? You might try Strabo.

After minimal research:

Uruk:

Uruk was still a city under the Seleukids. The Seleukids even restaurated the Zigurat in the Eanna temple district and other old temples.

Ur:

The Zigurat was even still visible and in good constitution in the 19th century when it was explored by Britains.

Larsa: abandoned ; not really impressive but viewable remains
Kish: abandoned ; not really impressive but viewable remains
Assur: destroyed ; can't be seen
Ninve: destroyed ; can't be seen

[martin-bs]

What about Perperikon to be added as a wonder in Tyllis???
I am just pasting some info that i have just found out in the net.
I guess it is a plausible choice for a wonder. It was quite famous back then.



The Temple of Dionysus on Holy Mount Rhodope
For more than a century already, archaeologists have searched for the remains of the famous temple where Dionysus had an oracle. It is believed that, when made, the discovery will be as important as that of Troy and Mycenae. Very little is known about the temple today and the only thing which is know for sure is that it was in the Holy Rhodope mountains.
zoom
The ancient Greek historian Herodotus is the main source of information about the temple of Dionysus. In his famous History, Herodotus gives an account of the march of Xerxes' immense army on Greece in 480 BC. As the huge invasion force was slowly making its way along the Aegean coast, many Thracian tribes sent envoys to pledge their allegiance to Xerxes. Only the Satrians, who inhabited the Rhodope, chose to ignore him: "The Satrians however never yet became obedient to any man, so far as we know, but they remain up to my time still free, alone of all the Thracians. [...] These are they who possess the Oracle of Dionysus; which Oracle is on their most lofty mountains. Of the Satrians those who act as prophets of the temple are the Bessians." Indeed, the Satrians went down in later historical accounts as Bessians.
zoom
Herodotus never himself travelled across Thrace and the geographical references in his account are often vague. He placed the Temple of Dionysus on the 'most lofty mountains' held by the Satrians, which were 'covered with forest of all kinds and with snow'. This led scholars to believe that the Temple was located in the high western part of the Rhodope range. Few had thought of the fact that only the highest ridge of the southern Rhodope can be seen from the Aegean coast. Beyond it, are the low, habitable middle and eastern ranges of the mountain which abound in archaeological remains from various ages. Among them, the holy city of Perperikon, the biggest megalith in Europe, is both a geographical and a historical landmark. Naturally, there were many temples of Dionysus as he was a chief god in ancient Thrace. Aristotle speaks of another major temple in the southeast of the Balkans inhabited by the Bisaltians, another Thracian tribe. In his Hecuba, Euripides is quite puzzled: "[...] some say that the Oracle of Dionysus is in Pangaea [the Rhodope] and others say it is in Hemus." According to later Roman historians, however, the temple in the Rhodope was a principal one.
zoomGaius Suetonius Tranquillus, a Roman biographer of the late 1st and early 2nd century AD, wrote about a visit to Dionysus' Oracle in the Holy Mount by the father of the first Roman Emperor Octavian Augustus. The Oracle prophesied the son's rise to empyreal power. Another Roman historian, Dion Cassius, described in his Romaika the march of Marcus Licinius Crassus, a Roman General in Augustus' service, in 29-28 BC, when he captured the famous Temple from the Bessians (Bessoi) and gave it to the Odrysae, a rival Thracian tribe. In 11 BC, a fierce war for the Temple broke out between the two tribes, in which the Bessians were led by the Oracle's High Priest.


"...When Octavian, father of Augustus, at the head of his army, came upon the Holy Mount of Dionysus, he consulted the oracle about his son, and the prophets said to him that his son was to rule the world, for as the wine was spilt onto the altar, the smoke rose up above the top of the shrine and even unto heavens, as had happened when Alexander the Great himself had sacrificed upon that same altar".

Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus

Chech this site out www.perperikon.bg


Izometric drawings

[Frost, colonel]

Here's one for ya mi old sausages,

When I first read about this I thought it might be quite special to come across it in EB, when doing some long distance sight seeing with your armies. It's the 12 great altars Alexander the Great had built on the banks of the river Hyphasis, when his army refused to go on, to mark the limit of his conquest. It seems like it would bring such a moment in history alive, and primarily as the game is a game of conquest, it seems rather befitting that the monument deserves it's place in the EB Hall Of Fame!

[Horatius Flaccus]

It's already in EB1.

[Frost, colonel]

OK thanks, hope it makes it into EBII

[MindYourself]

The first thing that came in my mind are the Archaic Drakospita (Dragon houses) in Euboea, Greece.
Here are two sites in greek :
http://www.dirfys.gr/drakospita.html
http://www.galaxy.gr/drakospita-01.htm