Age of Darkness IV: 800ce-1025ce Suggestions and views

[Constantius]

Age of darkness IV 800ce- 1025 ce

Will cover the reigns of Basileus ton Romaion (Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων),Nicephorus I to Basil II a time when the Eastern empire faces the on going threat from Islam :the slavs and Bulgars and a new terrifying enemy appears in the black sea plundering the monastries burning a pillaging !the Rus have arrived,whilst in the west a new Imperator Romanorum Charlamagne is crowned by the Pope .In the Balkans Khan Krum destroys the Avars and unites the two Bulgar groups on the Danube and forges a nation :

What does everyone think ? start dates ,end dates ,and of course factions ? Let me know is there the desire for such a mod ? NEED opinions on all aspects please .Thank you.


Edit: Revised faction list ,could still change especially the names of factions .Would appreciate some input there and NEED a big list of rebel factions e.g Croats ,Vikingr/Varangians ,other Slavs which due to slots cannot feature etc etc

• Basileia ton Rhomaiôn
• Al-Khilāfah al-‘Abbāsīyyah al-Islāmīyyah/Abbasid Caliphate
• Al Andalus/Emirate of Cordova
• Bulgar Khanate
• West Seaxe
• Mierce /Mercia
• Regnum Francorum et imperium Romanorum
• Moravia (Principality)
• Rus
• Magyar Tribes
• The Danes
• Serbs /Raska
• Emirate Qairawān /Aghlabids Emirate ( Ifriqia)
• Khazar Khanate
• Kingdom Abkhasia (early Georgia)
• Asturias and Galicia
• Idrisid Caliphate(Maghreb)
• Pechenegs
• Bohemia
• Duchy/Principality of Benevento

[Hound of Ulster]

start date should be crowning of Charlemagne. End date the battle of Manzikert

[Naughteous Maximus]

Just wondering what engine you would use on this mod. Would you use the RTW or MTW2 engine? I also believe that CBURP (Complete Byzantine Unit Roster Project) is creating skins for this and any other mod dealing with the Byzantine empire.

[Pompeius Magnus]

if the fourth part of AoD will be released one day - we will use the RTW/BI-engine. We have the finished map, the finished 2D grafics and a new interface, new 3D building-models for the battle-view, new music, a new early middle age building-structure etc etc. We shouldn`t give up everything.
(BUT: if a second Rome II - TW is officially released by Sega/CA then we will use that engine of course. Meanwhile we stay with RTW)

@Constantius
good luck for this project

[Constantius]

Just wondering what engine you would use on this mod. Would you use the RTW or MTW2 engine? I also believe that CBURP (Complete Byzantine Unit Roster Project) is creating skins for this and any other mod dealing with the Byzantine empire.

It will use the RTW engine as it will the fourth in the AoD series and so will follow that concept .I have seen some of CBURP units fantastic stuff ,but they are for other projects concerning MTW II engine .

start date should be crowning of Charlemagne. End date the battle of Manzikert

So you think Christmas 800 to 1071 i was toying with those dates myself ,but really want to see everybodys thoughts.


Must correct myself in 800 ce it wsas very rare for an Emperor to refer to himself as Basileus ton Romaion but more often as pistos en Christôi Basileus ,which translates as king faithful in Christ . It was after Charles the Great or Charlamagne was crowned was their any need to differetiate themselves .The senior emperor in the absence
of a junior was called autokratôr .The image shoe shows a later Emperor Konstantine IX ,the inscription reads
Konstantinos en Christôi tôi Theôi Autokratôr pistos Basileus Rhomaiôn ho Monomachos

[Pompeius Magnus]

My first suggestions:
starting 800AD - end-date 1025AD ( I simply took your dates constantius, I think those 2 dates are perfect, it's the typically time when the themes were working very well)
...but we can also stop in 1071AD - that's also fine by me! Manzikert then :-)

Factions

1.Basileia ton Romaion
2.Frankish empire (Charlemagne became Augustus Imperii Romani)
3.Kingdom of Gallicia (north spain)
4.Dans
5.Bulgar Khanate
6.Kingdom of Mercia
7.Kingdom of Wessex
8.Principality of Novgorod or Kiev ???
9.Umayyad Emirate in Spain
10.Kingdom of Abasgia
11.Tahirid Emirate (far east)
12.Abbasid Caliphate
13.Goths of the Crimea
14.Turks
15.Welshs or Irishs (or both?)
16.Principality of Tmutorokan
17.Duchy of Benevento in Italy
18.Idrisid caliphate
19.Magyars


the franks need some challange in the east
what about Kingdom of Moravia?
the state itself was founded between 833 and 866. Actually the exactly founding-date as well as the exactly location of that states' borders is still not 100% clearyfied. However, I think this state should be introduced. Esp. because huge groups of slavs settled there since the 7th century.

what about
Saxons?
Duchy of Bavaria?

[Constantius]

Absolutely ,i did also consider ; Khanate of Khazars ,Pechenegs, the Magyar tribes (which are about Crimean area i think in 800 ).
I'm really not sure what the Rus are doing at the beginnning of the period ,all i do know at this point is they came from Sweden and were invited to govern the the tribes of Chuds ,Slavs,Krivich and Veps .They later created a Khaganate on the upper Volga and from Roman sources we know they attacked all along the black sea area in 860 .I believe it was a Varangian by the name of Oleg who captured Kiev in about 882 ,it was under his son that it became the Kievan principality .Knobody shoot me i got this from notes i'v been preparing .Moravia is a good one if you ask me ,perhaps Bohemia ?

[Pompeius Magnus]

Bohemia is great! Let's include them. Charlemagne tried to conquer them with 3 armies at the same time in 805AD. So, it seems they were challenging enough ;-)
There were still some bigger groups of the crimean goths active in that area. However, in my opinio0n it is only a "Plan B"-faction. (technically speaking: if the area arround the crimea becomes too empty we can use the goths to fill it).

Open it the question about the Rus. I'm not a slav-specialist. Maybe somebody can enlight us :-)

[Constantius]

Bohemia is great! Let's include them. Charlemagne tried to conquer them with 3 armies at the same time in 805AD. So, it seems they were challenging enough ;-)
There were still some bigger groups of the crimean goths active in that area. However, in my opinio0n it is only a "Plan B"-faction. (technically speaking: if the area arround the crimea becomes too empty we can use the goths to fill it).

Open it the question about the Rus. I'm not a slav-specialist. Maybe somebody can enlight us :-)

Sounds good so far .I will agree with the Slavic /Rus thing ,i have a great book that covers this in detail but i haven't got my teeth into it as yet (its not part of my degree ) but itsd only one opinion ,So as you say PM hopefully can enlighten us with some juicy facts about it

[Pompeius Magnus]

The world 800AD

[Constantius]

Very interesting map ! it seems odviouse to me that we'd have to do something to prevent an AI Frankinh kingdom from over running everybody ,also just off this map to the east should be the Pechenegs and the Volga Bulgars .Should the Croats and or Serbs be in ?odviously we have a faction limit .

[Pompeius Magnus]

yes, that's part of the balancing.
The frankish empire needs strong neighbors. That's essential for the gameplay.
If we go the historical way then the franks must have a good mix of units. Light ones of course, however, they had also several superb units. Esp. the mounted "Milites" were the backbone of that army.
There is basically only one key to get a good result = the neighbors.

Strong Muslims in Spain, Bohemia and Moravia in the east, strong Danes and pre-vikings in the north, serbs and bulgars on the balkans (important factions), the Romans in south Italy and an important ally - the papal state. But, also an allied faction is probably tomorrow an enemy. Furthermore we will put several rebel-full-stacks into the empire (Saxons, Bretons, Bavarians). The frankish player will have a lot of work, improve the economy etc etc.

[AnthoniusII]

"The Great Conflicts 872-1071" for M2TW/Kingdoms mod has the exact timeframe you need for your project...
PM has the knowlege and the access to CBUR's dev forum to help you more...
If needed we can quide your project with several ways.
For example: The Nikephorean/thematical armies of the Roman Empire...
The main Lombard unit roster.
The basic Bulgrarian one if needed...
We hope that soon enough CBURp will make an early preview of the Thematical part of the Roman Empire's armies...
This could work as quide for your team...Our researchers have added shield drawings not only from Osprey bublishing but also from church frescos...

[Constantius]

"The Great Conflicts 872-1071" for M2TW/Kingdoms mod has the exact timeframe you need for your project...
PM has the knowlege and the access to CBUR's dev forum to help you more...
If needed we can quide your project with several ways.
For example: The Nikephorean/thematical armies of the Roman Empire...
The main Lombard unit roster.
The basic Bulgrarian one if needed...
We hope that soon enough CBURp will make an early preview of the Thematical part of the Roman Empire's armies...
This could work as quide for your team...Our researchers have added shield drawings not only from Osprey bublishing but also from church frescos...

Fantastic news i thank you ,i have just been to have a look at your "Great conflicts " looks very good Also ia m currently compiling faction list would greatly appreciate any thoughts you had on the sublect. I am really busy with 'STUFF ' as i'm sure you know ,i will post my thoughts so far for everybodys approval soon

Dont seem to be getting many thoughts here !!!!!!!!
For what its worth I also think that instead of just one Islamic, Abbassid Caliphate faction there should also be some smaller Emirates in game for example Emirate of Ikritis (Crete) and the Condominium of Cyprus (συγκυριαρχία της Κύπρου)

[Constantius]

Proposed Factions

• Basileia Romanion
• Imperium Romanvm
• Bulgar Khanate
• The Rus (Kievan Rus)
• Umayyad Emirate
• Croats
• Serbs
• Bohemia
• Moravia
• Duchy of Beneventum (or Langobardi ?)
• Excharte of Ravenna (Papal States)
• Khazar Khanate
• Pechenegs
• Danes
• Emirate of Ikritis
• Condominium of Cyprus(not so much a faction but dual ownership )
• Magyar Tribes
• Wessex
• Mercia
• Abkhazia (Erly Georgian kingdom)

• Asturias and Galicia
• Rebel /sub factions
  
• Emirate of Armenia
• Emirate of Kairouan

Thats my thoughts on the subject anyone got better ideas please say .I realise everone is excited about AoDII and III but just trying to get a fan base ,so one day this might be realised Thank you Constantius
Sorry i'v double posted

[Pompeius Magnus]

now live comes back to the thread. That's great!
I will have a closer look to the faction list.

[Constantius]

There are a few minor overlaps in the time period as i'm sure you have already noticed ,but not by much ,but might have to look at a compromise somewhere .I haven't posted as there appeared to be a lack of interest .Glad to see that your here tho PM

[Hound of Ulster]

You could make the Seljuks an emergent faction

[Constantius]

Yes that would seem a good idea ,finnish date is probably going to be 1071 and Turkish Ghazis had been raiding for decades until finally beining united by the Seljuks .Then in 1050 Tughril Beg is made the Islamic world s first Sultan by the Abbasid Caliph .The Seljuks had no real quarel with the Empire their real goal was destruction of Shite Fatamid Egypt.On another note Manzikert should of and could of been avoided and if it wasn't for treacherous Ducas,it should of been won on paper ! ,but thats another story

[Pompeius Magnus]

• Basileia ton Romaion (surprise surprise)
• Imperium Romanvm (I have no problem with this term in general. Charlemagne was crowned as Augustus imperii Romani. The question is: was the country officially called Imp.Rom.? What about the term "Franks" or "Franki"? Is it possible to combine those 2 terms Imp.Rom.+Franki together?)
• Bulgar Khanate (yes)
• The Rus/Kievan (yes)
• Umayyad Emirate-spain (yes)
• Serbs(yes)
• Bohemia(yes)
• Moravia(yes)
• Duchy of Beneventum (yes, faction is a "must". Is it a Duchy or Principality?)
• Papal States (to inlude the Papal state is a good idea. What about a Latin name of that state?)
• Khazar Khanate (yes)
• Danes (yes)
• Wessex (yes)
• Mercia (yes)
• Abkhazia/Early Georgian kingdom (yes)
• Emirate of Kairouan or Qairawān-Tunisia (yes)
• Asturias and Galicia (yes)

• Rebel /sub factions
  

not sure due to a lack of faction slots and importance of those factions:

• Condominium of Cyprus
• Magyar Tribes
• Pechenegs
• Croats
• Emirate of Ikritis (was a muslim state in 820AD - we start in 800)
• Emirate of Armenia
• Magyars

missing and debatable factions:
Kingdom of Maghreb / Idrisid caliphate (Morocco)
Abbasid Caliphate of Baghdad
Welshs or Irishs? Or just rebels?
Goths of the Crimea? Rebels?