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Thread: Survivalism = epic fail?

  1. #1

    Default Survivalism = epic fail?

    Survivalism = epic fail?

    bit of an obvious one, but so many people go on about survivalism, i just wanted to point out that there is no logical gameplan, and what we presume to be so, is just us trying to make it so.

    How do we know evolution isn’t just completely dumb, it believes in survival and yet absolutely everything does not survive, thus in terms of survival it continually fails in its goal. A species may survive for a while but that doesn’t help any individuals within it, nor even the species eventually, indeed can we rightly describe that as survival?

    After the individual and species dies, we may presume evolution is concerned only with continuance regardless of those. Eventually the sun goes supernova and all its efforts are in vein, one has to wonder if evolution and existence is about anything. In truth there is just a load of random stuff with no purpose whatsoever, reality is completely ignorant, or at least doesn’t provide for what it creates.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  2. #2
    gambit's Avatar Gorak
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    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    That is making evolution out to be God, there is no big objective or reason. It's simply a system through which life works. Plus it doesnt guarantee any species survival, its long-term adaptation to environment, not cheat codes.
    Last edited by gambit; December 01, 2009 at 11:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter S. Thompson
    You better take care of me, Lord. If you dont.. you're gonna have me on your hands

  3. #3

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    This is making evolution out to be God, there is not big objective or reason. It's simply the system through which life works. Plus it doesnt guarantee any species survival, its just adaptation to environment, not cheat codes.
    it is making evolution out to not be god! all I am saying is that evolution doesn’t have an agenda, survivalism doesn’t exist, you just got a load of random life forms and some don’t survive, but eventually they all don’t.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    Do we have something better to do?

    We are genetically programmed to survive, and I'm cool with that. I'm hoping when the old star embraces us in its warming clouds that we will have figured out a way by then to find new rocks to live on.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    We are genetically programmed to survive, and I'm cool with that.
    Are we? Seams that we forget most creatures are specialists and avoid competition just as much as some engage in survivalism. Animals don’t try to survive [as an ethic] they just do, we humans turn it all into abstract ideas that don’t exist as such in nature, …like hitler for example.

    I'm hoping when the old star embraces us in its warming clouds that we will have figured out a way by then to find new rocks to live on.
    I doubt if we will be humans as such, if you consider how long we have been around for and how long it will be until the sun goes pop, I would expect us to be a different species or many even. Hence humanity wont survive, and anyways, eventually the universe wont support life, so ultimately nothing survives.

    I am not questioning evolution so much as how we interpret it and use it as an ethical base, many people are survivalists to a degree, but is anything else in nature? I think evolution theories affect many areas of our lives and even politics [we allow businesses to fail etc, etc.], yet non-competition doesn’t!
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  6. #6
    gambit's Avatar Gorak
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    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    it is making evolution out to not be god! all I am saying is that evolution doesn’t have an agenda, survivalism doesn’t exist, you just got a load of random life forms and some don’t survive, but eventually they all don’t.
    That IS survivalism, the ones that do survive and can continue their path along evolution. I dont think survivalism is the defining ideal of evolution, just the most common "method" to our knowledge. Maybe there are other ways, maybe over thousands of years we will have discovered these other ways and even find out how to accelerate our evolution without making mutants of ourselves, but until then all theory is just sticking to what we know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter S. Thompson
    You better take care of me, Lord. If you dont.. you're gonna have me on your hands

  7. #7

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    That IS survivalism
    Animals survive, humans have survivalism! This is one of the main points I am making, the other is that evolution doesn’t have a game plan, it doesn’t try to evolve and is completely stupid ~ in other words it doesn’t exist, its just an effect of existent things seaming to try to become better etc.
    evolution isnt survivalism it just appears to be if you look at nature that way.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  8. #8
    trance's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    Uhm. This isn't really survivalism. Survivalism is an ideology, or movement whose members prepare for a major disaster/the end of the civilized world. Rather misleading title yes?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    Uhm. This isn't really survivalism. Survivalism is an ideology, or movement whose members prepare for a major disaster/the end of the civilized world. Rather misleading title yes?
    It is yes. So what label do we use for people who believe in survival of the fittest? I was using the term in a general sense.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  10. #10
    trance's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    Oh, that would be darwinism yes? One of the biggest foundation stones of Darwin's evolutionary theory is natural selection, it is the main drive behind evolution no? Else I guess the best phrase would simply be "The survival of the fittest" or "Natural selection = epic fail".

    Well then, now I've taken this thread out of track. Let's proceed.

    The evolutionary theory is far from fool proof, even when assuming that it is true, it still cannot predict the future, nor can life adapt to all possible environments. Life here isn't exactly eternal.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    Oh, that would be darwinism yes?
    ah! and I thought I was being more specific . Do you think it is the main ‘drive’ [something of a car without a driver], I think animals mostly try to just live [I.e. they don’t try just do so], this is why they specialise and often try not to compete. Seams to me like a balance of that and survival, but since darwin we seam to have focused mostly on survival. I think humans are just way to paranoid, and that evolution isn’t really anything but the net result of actions.

    the past and future is probably just made from lots of different versions of such net results relative to different era's climate change and new arrivals.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    The thing about evolution is that it doesn't only apply to life you can in fact apply it to everything. All the planets, stars and galaxies have all in effect evolved into their current form, they were just super heated random particles drifting through space to start with, along with ourselves all the particles that make us were blown out into space from a supernova.
    Last edited by Helm; December 01, 2009 at 06:20 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    The thing about evolution is that it doesn't only apply to life you can in fact apply it to everything. All the planets, stars and galaxies have all in effect evolved into their current form, they were just super heated random particles drifting through space to start with, along with ourselves all the particles that make us were blown out into space from a supernova.
    I often wonder what the purpose is, I think evolution is universal too from the beginning to the end, it evolves into all this beauty and life, but why. Then I remember that it doesn’t exist [as such] and that is why it has no purpose. what i mean is there is no overal directive, things just so happen to arrive at what they are.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    What you have is a process where structure and order arises from randomness and chaos. Structure and order is maintained in certain forms because they are well designed for the pure purpose of existing. Life being a stable structure that can constantly adapt itself to change is the ultimate and most complex form the universe can take.

  15. #15
    gambit's Avatar Gorak
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    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    Animals survive, humans have survivalism! This is one of the main points I am making, the other is that evolution doesn’t have a game plan, it doesn’t try to evolve and is completely stupid ~ in other words it doesn’t exist, its just an effect of existent things seaming to try to become better etc.
    evolution isnt survivalism it just appears to be if you look at nature that way.
    i understand what you're saying, the problem is evolution is idealogically raised to the degree of religion or gods, in that there must be a reason, agenda, creator and a myriad of other things implying some divine answer. a misunderstanding really, no one should be claiming evolution (or the system its tied to, that is, nature) is "god" nor is it the answer to all life. it's simply *A* answer. A system used by physical life as we understand it. survival of the fittest, natural selection, whatever you wish to label it, is just romanticising the notion. all our bodies are doing are adapting over time, sometimes it makes sense and is inherently useful, other times it doesnt and isnt. As the human species grows maybe we'll "evolve" or simply discover more untapped potential in ourselves, that is up to time and.. well if we survive.

    i think life and all existence is much more complex and involved than "god made it" or "stuff evolved" and it will be a looooooooong road of discovery before we eventually find a proper answer, even if its not the one we expect
    Last edited by gambit; December 01, 2009 at 06:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter S. Thompson
    You better take care of me, Lord. If you dont.. you're gonna have me on your hands

  16. #16

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    watch survivorman, it's nice

  17. #17

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    gambit

    i think life and all existence is much more complex and involved than "god made it" or "stuff evolved" and it will be a looooooooong road of discovery before we eventually find a proper answer, even if its not the one we expect
    I agree absolutely. Philosophically it is worth pointing out that we humans tend to make morals out of observations, and I don’t think that has been an entirely good thing as concerns Darwinism. Politics should be an entirely holistic human field for and about human culture, and competition is not the beginning and end all. In fact in nature competition tends to be a short term thing that gets played out one way or the other, after the balance is found it is not so relevant. Perhaps it would be a good thing if we evolved politics and social perceptions beyond Darwinism, I hate all the ‘alpha male’ nonsense.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    When politics tries to go against our evolved nature, it ends in failure.

    See communism as an example. The problem isn't communism is evil, the problem is communism doesn't work with our evolved natures.

    You won't get rid of alpha males without changing the fundamental nature of our genes.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    The problem isn't communism is evil, the problem is communism doesn't work with our evolved natures.
    Depends on what we think communism is, for example a commune based society existed in ancient Britain for thousands of years, humans used to be more like that prior to the nuclear family [relatively recent]. State communism fails, but it doesn’t have to be state based it can be cooperative based as it always was. This will always succeed, as the majority gets a fairer deal, I don’t know why communists and socialist seam to think that the centralised state is the answer.

    You won't get rid of alpha males without changing the fundamental nature of our genes
    In human society no-one is alpha because even people at the top are reliant and have to answer those below ~ and there isn’t really anyone in particular at the top. More importantly, our genes arent all important, culture is! I watched a nature program about some monkeys who developed a way to open oysters using tools, as they were a plentiful food source. If you moved those monkeys to a different location that culture would end, if you moved them back later, they may not ever develop such a culture again. So you see culture is more important then genes, we could say that genes are the building blocks, but culture is the architect who designs how they should be organised.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Survivalism = epic fail?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    Depends on what we think communism is, for example a commune based society existed in ancient Britain for thousands of years, humans used to be more like that prior to the nuclear family [relatively recent]. State communism fails, but it doesn’t have to be state based it can be cooperative based as it always was. This will always succeed, as the majority gets a fairer deal, I don’t know why communists and socialist seam to think that the centralised state is the answer.
    Because it does fail short term. Based on the golden grave goods of ancient kings in Britain and the like, I'm going to doubt those cultures were a true sharing all things commune and were more of a barter based economy. They tried small time independent communes in the US and the results were never good long term.

    In human society no-one is alpha because even people at the top are reliant and have to answer those below ~ and there isn’t really anyone in particular at the top.
    Tiger Woods didn't get more poontang because he was one of the pack. Thats all being an alpha male is. More women want to have sex with you. This is our nature.

    Tony Montana: In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.

    Its all about the women when you boil it down.

    More importantly, our genes arent all important, culture is! I watched a nature program about some monkeys who developed a way to open oysters using tools, as they were a plentiful food source. If you moved those monkeys to a different location that culture would end, if you moved them back later, they may not ever develop such a culture again. So you see culture is more important then genes, we could say that genes are the building blocks, but culture is the architect who designs how they should be organised.
    Our culture is limited by our genes. There were people who thought culture was everything, such as Margret Mead, who have been shown to be wrong and wrong again, though unfortunately became part of the public thinking back in the 70's. Cultures vary but only as far as our genetics allow.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

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