Good 40K Novels

[Ulysses S. Grant]

Never read any of this or played it but a friend mentioned it and I found it interesting. Recommendations?

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=314037

Just look at that page.

[Karabekian]

It does state in the Rulebook that the Administratum is giving control of many sectors to Space Marine Chapters as they are usually better at maintaining order and guarding them than regular Imperial Forces are.

That is true, own homeworlds etc.etc. But how would the first founding chapters (given their influence already) look at someone giving power to a single chapter? No to mention, the emperor can not be moved. Then there is the Star child theory etc. but that is another thing.

Humanity are survivors, mankind would survive the destruction of Terra.

Not very likely. The fluff seems to make it quite clear that the Emperor is the single being that keeps humanity alive. That is the entire race. It is irrelevant if ten, hundred or a thousand worlds survive the destruction of Terra. Death will come to them all, most sooner than later.

With the heart of the Imperium under chaos control, they'd just fight among themselves as we all know no chaos lord really has any sort of plan, they just want to please their petty idols. Plus chaos is weaker the further it is from the Eye of Terror, the threat level would not be as dire.

With Terra lost humanity essentially dies. If Chaos does not immediately overpower the lesser psykers maintaining barriers in far away worlds, the loss of all transportation will immediately render any planet in reach of CSM, Eldar, Orks etc.etc. on their own. As even more time passes, thousands of planets will starve to death as agri worlds fall. With the Ad-Mech losing their supply lines of food, resources and the capability to transport these out of system, the IN, IA and SM lose any replenishment in materiel. With he the most powerful houses of the Navis Nobilite dead any remaining possibility of travel will diminish in time if they somehow are able to see where they are going.

Chaos is everywhere. The EoT is just the biggest hole they currently are able to maintain in real space, with the Emperor dead why not open a thousand times bigger one at Terra. Not to mention most major factions would be free to start expansion but also many of the minor factions we know exist at least during HH would also gain this possibility. Or even better, let a new god emerge on the ashes of the Emperor, like Slaanesh from Eldar.

Its not like Ultramar could not be a power on their own (they already are) but that the Emperor is humanity.
We know planets can be happy places of democracy and advancement, perhaps for a hundred years but in the 40th millenium, death is around the corner.

[Ulysses S. Grant]

You do know I never posted those last two things you quoted from me. It was Okuto on the last page.

[nameless]

With the destruction of the Western half of the Imperium, the survivors would be forced to advance/progress or perish.....this would be very welcomed, a new Golden age of technology, space marine legions return out of necessity, emergency powers etc etc....

They already do but this is 40K, something always comes along and screws the Imperium whenever they are about to advance or locate a working STC that brings them back down. The story dicates this. If I recall correctly there's a perfectly working STC hiding in the Imperium but it's been hidden away in some library.

That is true, own homeworlds etc.etc. But how would the first founding chapters (given their influence already) look at someone giving power to a single chapter? No to mention, the emperor can not be moved. Then there is the Star child theory etc. but that is another thing.

It would be a cause of concern because I believed that's what happened in the Badab war though desperate circumstances calls for extreme measures as the Imperium is stretched thin.

[Okuto]

But how would the first founding chapters (given their influence already) look at someone giving power to a single chapter? No to mention, the emperor can not be moved. Then there is the Star child theory etc. but that is another thing.

The Big E doesnt have to be moved, I doubt they'd let him be moved off world anyways when Terra falls. OF course no one would like Space marines gaining more power, thus I said there'd be civil war, though the marines would win out as they'd be in the strongest position after the fall

The bulk of the other forces of the Imperium on reliant on each other where's the marines are each self-sufficient, they'd have no problems putting everyone in line

Not very likely. The fluff seems to make it quite clear that the Emperor is the single being that keeps humanity alive. That is the entire race. It is irrelevant if ten, hundred or a thousand worlds survive the destruction of Terra. Death will come to them all, most sooner than later.

The Emperor keeps the bulk of humanity alive, his death would not mean insta kill for all humanity. Fragments of the Imperium/humanity would live on pass him.

With Terra lost humanity essentially dies.

No they die slowly, communication is lost, travel is slowed to a crawl but humanity lives on.

If Chaos does not immediately overpower the lesser psykers maintaining barriers in far away worlds, the loss of all transportation will immediately render any planet in reach of CSM, Eldar, Orks etc.etc. on their own. As even more time passes, thousands of planets will starve to death as agri worlds fall. With the Ad-Mech losing their supply lines of food, resources and the capability to transport these out of system, the IN, IA and SM lose any replenishment in materiel. With he the most powerful houses of the Navis Nobilite dead any remaining possibility of travel will diminish in time if they somehow are able to see where they are going.

I'm under no illusion the Imperium will suffer.....Mars will fall, tech will be lost, hiveworlds will starve and fall into bloody civil war,warp travel will be non existent, etc etc.

As with most things, when your survival is at skate no price is too great, the recreants would find a way to survive and rebuild. Pockets of the Imperium would survive on, the Space marine worlds would survive the best being self sufficient as they are.

Chaos is everywhere. The EoT is just the biggest hole they currently are able to maintain in real space, with the Emperor dead why not open a thousand times bigger one at Terra.

Terra would become a big massive daemon gate, doesn't mean everyone in the galaxy will roll over for chaos, there's more than the Imperium. Mind you the Imperium is easy prey to Chaos but factions like the Nids and Necrons frankly don't give a ---- about chaos....Necrons are the bane of chaos

Not to mention most major factions would be free to start expansion but also many of the minor factions we know exist at least during HH would also gain this possibility. Or even better, let a new god emerge on the ashes of the Emperor, like Slaanesh from Eldar.

The Emperor's essence would be not be reborn into a chaos god, if the Emperor is such a powerful psyker that can keep daemons at bay for who knows how long he will be able to deny such a thing.

That'd be as silly as a Chapter Master beating a warboss but can't beat a grot for some reason....

The Emperor is already portrayed as some super human-godlike figure, denying his essence to chaos would be no big deal.

not like Ultramar could not be a power on their own (they already are) but that the Emperor is humanity.

The emperor is a symbol, nothing more, with his death the space marines would take his place(this would not fly with most marines)

Ultramar is the only place you could plausibly rebuild the Imperium and they would have the backing given their record, being the largest, and given their location.

We know planets can be happy places of democracy and advancement, perhaps for a hundred years but in the 40th millenium, death is around the corner.

I would not expect happy democracy, I would expect order and efficiency.

As the Imperium as a whole is highly inefficient, the bulk of it's ground forces antiqued, command structure is too centralized/incompetent/officers not promoted on merit and the big problem- lack of any focused effort of standardization

Self preservation would force the remnants of the Imperium to experiment and develop new weapons and tech.

Nothing like near death to encourage you






But ultimately.....Necrons win in the end anyways....

[Lord of the Drunk Penguin]

Why? Necrons will never win, the Orks and Nids can still beat the crap out of them.

[Karabekian]

You do know I never posted those last two things you quoted from me. It was Okuto on the last page.

I'm sorry, fixed it!

As the Imperium as a whole is highly inefficient, the bulk of it's ground forces antiqued, command structure is too centralized/incompetent/officers not promoted on merit and the big problem- lack of any focused effort of standardization

Is the Imperium not standardization itself in technology, infrastructure etc is essentially the same wherever you go due to STC. The Imperium is too large to have a central government. Why would Ultramar fare any better with all communication cut off?

If their military leadership is too centralized, how could they allow it to be decentralized, while centralizing the Imperium itself to allow more standardization? The fact that not all officers are promoted on merit is because they are human. Does the codex allow the Ultamarines to promote after merit, or by the codex that defines the merit required?

While I agree with much of your post (it fleshed it out for me better) but the Imperium is inefficient because it can be. It has boundless resources so the way they spend it is irrelevant to its leaders.

And antiqued is a bit harsh, worse than in M20 or 30 perhaps but they get along just fine it seems. How could they improve it? They can not build more marines, they can not change their tanks and vehicles, they can not improve their ships. The Imperium is not at a technological disadvantage because there are people who want them to be, but because they have to use what they have got. The AdMech can not go and change a single forge world, because it disrupts its operations and anyone in the area. Even if one factory is retooled, they can not shut down the twenty thousand others because they too are essential to whoever they supply.

And what is there that can be improved? What can they do that would surpass the STC in efficiency? Thats right, look for more STC!

It is folly to simply think the Imperium is backward because of lack of invention. You have to see at the bigger picture, a nation or Empire at total war without end, with enemies waging even absolute war.

[Okuto]

Why? Necrons will never win, the Orks and Nids can still beat the crap out of them.

Necrons win out in the long term, they have the ability to destory organic substance. Nids are nomadic and require organic substance to survive, they can never win so long as they require organic substance.

Orkz are organic substance, Necrons are very precise and have the ability to wipe a place clean, orkz require organic material to "fertilize" in which Necrons can deny them this.


Even though Necrons run on windows 95 now they still have the best chance to survive in the end once they've all fully awakened, they do not need organic substance, they require no supply lines, they don't need any of the natural resources to survive, they're self sufficient...etc etc...they do not suffer from the weakness of consumption as much as their frail fleshy counterparts

The only downside is many of them have kept their petty organic flaws

Is the Imperium not standardization itself in technology, infrastructure etc is essentially the same wherever you go due to STC. The Imperium is too large to have a central government. Why would Ultramar fare any better with all communication cut off?

No it's not, if standardization was enforced, every world would be a the relative same tech level which is not the case, you still have backwaters and worlds who issue their troops muskets and biplanes.

Ultramar is the only place that would be up to the task, their primarch was the best organizer and governor and his heirs naturally inherited such traits as they read in the novels.

If not well the Imperium dies and something new arrives, survival of the fittest.

If their military leadership is too centralized, how could they allow it to be decentralized, while centralizing the Imperium itself to allow more standardization? The fact that not all officers are promoted on merit is because they are human. Does the codex allow the Ultamarines to promote after merit, or by the codex that defines the merit required?

They should adopt more independent self contained army groups like they did during the golden age, it's much more efficient and adaptable to fast moving actions.

Because they're human is not an excuse for not promoting on merit. Any competent Imperial officer knows promoting someone who's only qualification is that he/she knows X/Y is bound for trouble.

The Ultramarines have a sort of split in terms of the Codex, some of them clung on to it where's others see it as guidelines. However the Codex insists you promote the most capable.

While I agree with much of your post (it fleshed it out for me better) but the Imperium is inefficient because it can be. It has boundless resources so the way they spend it is irrelevant to its leaders.

Just because you can afford to waste a company of tanks or lose a few men doesn't mean you go around repeating it......I mean your survival depends on it....you certainly ought to spend it wisely.

And antiqued is a bit harsh, worse than in M20 or 30 perhaps but they get along just fine it seems. How could they improve it? They can not build more marines, they can not change their tanks and vehicles, they can not improve their ships. The Imperium is not at a technological disadvantage because there are people who want them to be, but because they have to use what they have got. The AdMech can not go and change a single forge world, because it disrupts its operations and anyone in the area. Even if one factory is retooled, they can not shut down the twenty thousand others because they too are essential to whoever they supply.

Thus I said the fall of terra and the home system would scare them into doing it. They would have no choice, they will adapt or they will perish, it's that simple. The Imperium's superstitious conservative attitude survives because of an illusion that it's working. Once they wake up they will have no choice but to dig through the "dark age of technology" for their salvation.

If not they will die and some other faction will carve up whats left.

And what is there that can be improved? What can they do that would surpass the STC in efficiency? Thats right, look for more STC!

And the Imperium can't learn from their enemies....they can't realize their enemies are using tech much superior than that of their own or grow a brain and realize their tanks are slow bricks of poo?

It is folly to simply think the Imperium is backward because of lack of invention. You have to see at the bigger picture, a nation or Empire at total war without end, with enemies waging even absolute war.

War is the ultimate incentive to advance technology, better ways to save your own troops, to kill those of the enemy. Wars always fuel technological advancement, it is the universal truth.

[nameless]

Why? Necrons will never win, the Orks and Nids can still beat the crap out of them.

You kidding me?


This is essentially what happened when the Orks invaded Fordris. No matter how many times the Orks smacked the living daylights out of the Necrons they just kept regenerating over and over.

Nids stand no chance against Necrons. Tyranids rely on biomass and in an attritional war they'd lose as they cannot recover any biomass from the Necrons nor from their own casualities since the Fllay guns vaporize everything.

And the Imperium can't learn from their enemies....they can't realize their enemies are using tech much superior than that of their own or grow a brain and realize their tanks are slow bricks of poo?

They do. The Xenos inquistor branch is not above using captured xeno technology. Some forgeworlds run tons of experiments but given the vastness of the Imperium it's not easy to share the tech.

The reasons are obvious though because any weapon that's corrupted will of course screw you over in the end just like what happened to a certain Primarch. In Cain's The Last Stand he refused to even touch a lasgun that had Chaos etching on it and reminded himself for all such weapons to be destroyed.

[Karabekian]

Just because you can afford to waste a company of tanks or lose a few men doesn't mean you go around repeating it......I mean your survival depends on it....you certainly ought to spend it wisely.

It is irrelevant if you can afford it. The Imperium can afford it. Just look at the first world war. It could not have been fought any other way, no matter how much you want innovation. Yet no one found it reasonable to end the war. Because they could afford it.

Its like telling a billionaire to save money instead of buying a new RR.

Thus I said the fall of terra and the home system would scare them into doing it. They would have no choice, they will adapt or they will perish, it's that simple. The Imperium's superstitious conservative attitude survives because of an illusion that it's working. Once they wake up they will have no choice but to dig through the "dark age of technology" for their salvation.

Illusion? Or the all knowing Emperors plan all along?

And the Imperium can't learn from their enemies....they can't realize their enemies are using tech much superior than that of their own or grow a brain and realize their tanks are slow bricks of poo?

Who has better technology? The Tau? Beaten to crap by SM and IN. The Necrons? Killing their entire race to get metal skeletons and sleep for eternity? The Eldar? Incapable of defeating the IA and IN, let alone the SM? Chaos? Fused with the very essence that seeks to kill the Imperium. The Orks? Dark Eldar? Who has better technology and is defeating the Imperium?

In what regard does the Imperium lack?

The Imperial Navy is the pinnacle of humanity the entire universe, the absolute power no one yet has defeated.

A single tank is irrelevant in this equation. Since it does what it does and does it well. The T-34 was a brick of poo.

[Lord of the Drunk Penguin]

You kidding me?


This is essentially what happened when the Orks invaded Fordris. No matter how many times the Orks smacked the living daylights out of the Necrons they just kept regenerating over and over.

You do know that a Necron can be utterly destroyed right? And guess who fought them for centuries and still is around to fight some more. Oh, and did I mention they out-number all the races put together?

So yeah, that cartoon is essentially what happens to Necrons when they go against Orks. You assume Orkz have no means to inflict total destruction upon a race. That is where you are wrong

[justicar5]

You do know that a Necron can be utterly destroyed right? And guess who fought them for centuries and still is around to fight some more. Oh, and did I mention they out-number all the races put together?

So yeah, that cartoon is essentially what happens to Necrons when they go against Orks. You assume Orkz have no means to inflict total destruction upon a race. That is where you are wrong

Also their is a strong hint that Orks where created in the first place as weapons against the Necrons.

[nameless]

You do know that a Necron can be utterly destroyed right? And guess who fought them for centuries and still is around to fight some more. Oh, and did I mention they out-number all the races put together?

As an Ultramarine noted in Fall of Damos, the same Necron that he's fighting is probably the same Necron he destroyed a few hours ago and so forth. It's literally an endless machine.

So yeah, that cartoon is essentially what happens to Necrons when they go against Orks. You assume Orkz have no means to inflict total destruction upon a race. That is where you are wrong

As I said, this is a cartoon represenation of what happened at Fordris. No matter how many times the Orks smashed the Necrons to pieces the Necron army simply regenerated until it overcame the Ork Warggh. That is in the lore. The Warboss smashed the Necrons but no matter how many its and pieces he smashed the Necrons into they always regenerated.

The amount of firepower the Necrons possess surpasses that of anyone else and I've yet to see any lore or novels that has anybody even winning against the Necrons. Even Space Marines that can get this end up with a pyrrhic victory.

Give me a battle or campaign where the Orks actually overcame the Necrons because I haven't seen it yet.

[Lord of the Drunk Penguin]

What happen at Fordris stays at Fordris.
In other words, one example doesn't make you right.

Also their is a strong hint that Orks where created in the first place as weapons against the Necrons.

This. A thousand times this.

[nameless]

What happen at Fordris stays at Fordris.
In other words, one example doesn't make you right.

Just because it goes against what you assume doesn't make it invalid. Very few have been able to fight the Necrons and come out alive or even win. Whenever the Necrons appear it's usually a "get the hell out of there and commence exterminatus"

And until you come up with a scenario where an Ork Warrgh overcame a Necron Tomb world you actually have nothing to back up.

I mean just saying an example is invalid is just plain arrogance.

This. A thousand times this.

You keep going on about this but you have nothing to back it up. I mean the way your going on about this is like "oh the Orks were created to fight the Necrons so that means they > Necrons" despite the fact that the Old Ones ended up being defeated anyways in the end and wiped out.

The Eldar were the most prominent ones to fight the Necrons but even they have trouble dealing with the Necrons and in most cases it's "kill them before they awaken." Even the Necrons consider the Eldar to be one of their greatest foes. Everything the Necrons did after overthrowing their C'tan masters was in regards to the Eldar that were becoming stronger at that time and not the Orks. Think of it this way. Two races were created but the Necrons only care and react to one and not the other. Heck even the Silent King takes the actual Tyranid Hive Fleet a bigger threat as well.

Once the Necrons take to the field it's difficult to fight them head on.

And the only reason the Necrons went into sleep was because the entire galaxy was infested with warp spawn that was killing everything in their path. They didn't go into hiding because of the Orks.

Though I'm assuming a giant ork Warggh would probably give a Tomb world a challenge but then again the same can be said for anything.

[Alexmcm13]

But, the point that the Old Ones were wiped out is flawed. The Necrons didn't defeat the Old Ones, the Enslavers did. The Necrons were on the verge of being defeated when the Enslavers wiped out the Old Ones, so the Orks and the other sentient races created to face the necrons were obviously fairly effective. Not only that, but eventually the Orks would figure out that destroying the tomb complexes destroy the Necrons, so I don't think that a fight between Orks and Necrons would be one sided either way.

[Ulysses S. Grant]

The Krork were created as the ultimate survival race. Not as a weapon meant to defeat the Necrons. The Old Ones were holding their last strongholds and their other creations (Eldar etc) were failing to hold back the Necrons and so they created several races that were not as refined as their previous generations of races. The Krork and Jokaero were created in the Old Ones last days. If anything the Krork at least lived up to their original purpose. They survived the War in Heaven and subsequent galaxy wide apocalypse and actually thrived in it (Although they degenerated into the Orks). They just weren't enough to defeat the Necrons alone.

[Karabekian]

so the Orks and the other sentient races created to face the necrons were obviously fairly effective.

Also it is reasonably to assume that the Orks were a better breed at that time. Even during the 30th millenium the Orks were much more advanced and capable than today or simply a lot more numerous. The hordes as well as the creatures defeated by humanity and the Emperor during the crusade were a lot larger than the ones met today. It is possible, that creatures such as Ghazgull have only recently emerged (thus their "success" against humans) and the entire race has been in some sort of decline for thousands of years.

The always ridiculous conversions and fluff of captured landraiders, baneblades etc. could get some reason if indeed the orks were more advanced in the past, with some individuals regaining part of that intellect.

[Ulysses S. Grant]

Also it is reasonably to assume that the Orks were a better breed at that time. Even during the 30th millenium the Orks were much more advanced and capable than today or simply a lot more numerous. The hordes as well as the creatures defeated by humanity and the Emperor during the crusade were a lot larger than the ones met today. It is possible, that creatures such as Ghazgull have only recently emerged (thus their "success" against humans) and the entire race has been in some sort of decline for thousands of years.

The always ridiculous conversions and fluff of captured landraiders, baneblades etc. could get some reason if indeed the orks were more advanced in the past, with some individuals regaining part of that intellect.

Its best to think of Orks like a cancer. They cannot be exterminated totally, but they can be fought and destroyed at least temporarily. Pre M30 they were larger and a lot more numerous than today, but not for the reasons you stated. They were instead simply unimpeded by Humanity and due to the hostile nature of the galaxy at the time, they grew to much larger sizes than today. Remember, the more an ork fights and wins the larger they get and one of the only reasons few orks get that large in the 41st millenium is because the Imperium and Eldar keep close watch on potential powerful Warbosses and do what they can to keep them from becoming as monstrous as M30 era orks such as Gharkul Blackfang.

Still the Orks of Octarius are becoming a lot larger than normal Orks due to their gruelling war of annihilation with Hive Fleet Leviathan.

[Lord of the Drunk Penguin]

So I finished Shadows of Treachery.

Regarding Prince of Crows, I must admit that it has left me a bit... wanting. Not the style of ADB that's dissatisfying, it's the main character.
Somehow, it gives the impression that if you were born on Nostromo, you'd must certainly have a terrific sense of humor.