Portugal - Discussion Thread

[D.Sebastian]

just for curiosity,what are those XIX century "completely different uniforms"?

[Geronimo2006]

just for curiosity,what are those XIX century "completely different uniforms"?

There are lots of text descriptions of units in this book and I haven't translated it yet (there are 282 pages in the book). But I can describe a uniform of the "Companhia de Mouros, India e Macau, em grande uniforme 1880".

The most obvious change is the head-dress. He seems to be wearing a blue-grey and white striped turban with a large grey-blue cone protruding upwards through it. Another (very small) white cone then protrudes upwards from the large cone. Then there is a white tassel hanging out of the base of the blue cone to the left. The collar and cuffs are red, the trousers (not culottes) white, and he is wearing sandals. He is wearing a Prussian-Blue or Brown shirt with nothing over it, and the shirt has white-epaulets. He has a sword on his right hand side and carries a gun in his right hand. I can't find pictures of native troops in the 19th century before this. Most of the colonial uniforms in the book in India are European in appearance.

BTW, I got an email from Mr.Rodrigues today.

Hello! Good night.

I apologize for not having responded to their emails, but I've been
very busy and have not had time available.

Your questions are not forgotten, so you have time
answer all the questions. I do not know if you received the two pictures
tile panels with the grenadiers of mitra?

I'm organizing celebrations of the 50th Anniversary of the Center for
Troops of Special Operations (Rangers), whose headquarters is in
Lamego about 310km from my house and how I need to move
there often have not had much time available. Yet
so being able to answer your questions about the uniforms of
Swiss troops in 1762.

I've been watching the forum and think it is very interesting. As my
written English is very bad, I will not go directly to the "forum" for
it make to you my "spokesman".

I have also asked him to clarify whether or not Portugal had an Irish Brigade like other Catholic powers. I have personally found absolutely no evidence of one, but it is in the game, and if anyone knows the answer it is him.

[Geronimo2006]

Mr Rodrigues has sent me this email today with more detailed pictures of the mitres worne by early Portuguese grenadiers from a tiled drawings in a Hospital from the 18th century. See below:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As you can see, the emblem on the mitres is a grenade.

Message Mr Rodrigues has asked me to give to the forum:

Viva!

Vou lançar um novo desafio, para o "forum" caso estajm interessado,
trata-se de.

Divisão Auxiliar Portuguesa a Espanha em 1793 a 1795 Campanhads do
Rossilhão (Roussillon) e Catalunha ( Catluña)

Penso que é um tema extremamente interessante e como fiz bastante
investigação sobre este assunto, tenho muitos elementos

A Espanha declarou guerra à República Francesa e pouco depois Portugal
aliava-se com o reino vizinho, estes factos ficaram a dever-se à
invocação, pelos espanhóis, do perigo que os tronos Ibéricos corriam e
às alianças existentes entre os dois reinos. A 15 de Junho de 1793,
foi assinado em tratado em Madrid entre D. Manuel Godoy, Duque de
Alcudia, futuro Príncipe da Paz, e D. Diogo de Noronha, nosso
embaixador junto à corte de Madrid, que obrigava Portugal a enviar
para os Pirinéus uma Divisão Auxiliar.

O comandante das tropas portuguesas foi o escocês Marechal de Campo
João Forbes Skellater e às nossas forças juntaram-se muitos
voluntários nobres estrangeiros como o Duque de Northumberland, o
Prícipe de Montmorency e o português Marquês de Nisa, e muitos outros.

As unidades que fizeram parte das forças auxiliares foram:
Regimentos de Infantaria: Peniche; Freire de Andrade; Cascais; 1.º e
2º do Porto e 1.º de Olivença. Uma Brigada de Aritilharia

Pergunte no forum se estão interessados neste desafio, pois, como já
disse, tenho muitos elementos, muita iconografia e documentos da
época. Trata-se de uma Campanha pouco conhecida e passado nos Pirinéus
o que talvez se torne "num jogo interessante" pelo cenário da acção.

Se estiverem interessado diga-me que eu posso ajudar muito neste caso

Aguardo uma resposta e um abraço para todos
do
Manuel A. Ribeiro Rodrigues

Viva!

I will launch a new challenge for the "forum" estajm if interested,
it is.

Portuguese Auxiliary Division in Spain from 1793 to 1795 Campanhads
Roussillon (Roussillon) and Catalonia (Catluña)

I think it is an extremely interesting and I quite like
research on this subject, I have many elements

Spain has declared war on France and shortly after Portugal
allied with the neighboring kingdom, these events were due to the
invocation, by the Spaniards, the danger they ran and the thrones Iberian
the alliances between the two kingdoms. A June 15, 1793,
treaty was signed in Madrid between D. Manuel Godoy, Duke of
Alcudia future Prince of Peace, and D. Diogo de Noronha, our
ambassador to the court of Madrid, which forced Portugal to send
the Pyrenees a Division Assistant.

The commander of the Portuguese troops was the Scottish Field Marshal
John Forbes Skellater and our forces have joined several
noble foreign volunteers as the Duke of Northumberland, to
Prince of Montmorency and the Portuguese Marquis of Nisa, and many others.

The units that were part of the auxiliary forces were
Regiments of Infantry: Peniche, Freire de Andrade; Cascais, 1. º and
Port 2 and 1. Olivença º. A Brigade Aritilharia

Ask in the forum if you are interested in this challenge because, as already
said, have many elements, much of the iconography and documents
time. This is a campaign not well known and passed in the Pyrenees
what may become "an interesting game" by setting the action.

If you are interested tell me that I can help much in this case

I await a response and a hug for everyone
of
Manuel A. Ribeiro Rodrigues

Does anyone have information of those regiments? Carricanta?

[D.Sebastian]

Did he say anything about the swiss uniforms before lippe or about the legião de alorna(legion of light troops)?

About those regiments,I have data about the uniforms of most of them (except the Freire de Andrade),but they are from the years 1800.Still, since no new regulations had been set by the government around this time,I think it could work pretty well to represent the uniforms of the Portuguese Auxiliary Division in Spain.The information can be found here.

[Geronimo2006]

Did he say anything about the swiss uniforms before lippe or about the legião de alorna(legion of light troops)?

Not yet D Sebastian. When I have more info I will post it here.

About those regiments,I have data about the uniforms of most of them (except the Freire de Andrade),but they are from the years 1800.Still, since no new regulations had been set by the government around this time,I think it could work pretty well to represent the uniforms of the Portuguese Auxiliary Division in Spain.The information can be found here.

Thank you.

I have excellent news. Mr Rodrigues has given me permission to post pictures from his book.

Não me importo que coloquem fotografias do meu livro desde que seja
citada a fonte
M.A. Ribeiro Rodrigues

I do not care who put pictures of my book since it is
quoted the source
M. A. Ribeiro Rodrigues

D Sebastian, he says it will take some time (maybe end of June) to get the original Swiss uniforms:

About the uniforms of the Swiss troops in 1762 is a matter that will take some time, because I have here in my house elements on this subject. Everything is a file that I have another home and there'll possibly only at the end of next June.

He says he will try to send the Legion of Light troops uniforms tomorrow. He sent me this picture of a man in armour but I don't know whether it is Legiao Alorna or not I will ask him. But given the red-sashes, they are likely officers.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The decree establishing the Legiao de Alorna is below:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Given I had received permission from Manuel Ribeiro Rodrigues to show pictures from the book, here goes. See pics below. Sepoy and Drummer in 1790:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Companhia de Cipaios de Mocambique (1788):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Geronimo2006]

More pictures I received today. A mysterious image of a Grenadier wearing a turban with a skull-and-crossbow insignia. Mr Rodrigues says it isn't know whether he is Portuguese or foreign. Can anyone shed some light on which unit this is?:

14 - This figure done in tiles and which lies at the entrance of a house by the stairs, which are called "figures of invitation" very much in use in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, is very curious to portray a grenadier with a turban (? ), taking the front emblem, a skull and crossbones (?...!?).

this is without a doubt, from a figure of the late seventeenth century and early eighteenth centuries, even today is a "mystery." There are no references about this military. Of course this can be a fantasy, or the representation of a foreign military, no one knows! in any case is a mystery that I wanted to share with you.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Joao V's cavalry-standard:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2 pictures of King Joao V:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[D.Sebastian]

Have you already found if the sepoy from mocambique wore the same uniform as those from india?

[Geronimo2006]

Have you already found if the sepoy from mocambique wore the same uniform as those from india?

Not yet. They probably did though because I think the Captaincy of India was at one stage based in Mozambique.

I suggested to him that the Grenadier wearing a turban wth a skull-and-crossbow symbol might be a Turkish mercenary in the Portuguese army and he replied "perhaps". He also says of the Reais Estrangeiros gaiters:

The gaiters (gaiters) across the infantry since the eighteenth century to the twentieth were made from a kind of canvas (canvas) or (sailcloth), a tissue very thick and rigid. They could be white (in summer) and black to gray in winter

[D.Sebastian]

Hmmm...Do you know any reference to the use of turkish mercenaries in this century?
Just to check,those images are the only reference on XVIII century sepoys in the book right?Also,jugding by the lack of information,Portugal does not seem to have used sowars (correct me if I'm wrong),so I guess their only native unit was this company of sepoys (the name of the company in the XIX century,"Companhia de Mouros, India e Macau",which would translate to "company of moors,indians and chinese" suggests that it was composed of natives from all portuguese colonies).
And now that you have Mr.Rodrigues permission,could you show some of those colonial troops with helmets?I'm specially interested in the black regiments you mentioned....

[Geronimo2006]

Hmmm...Do you know any reference to the use of turkish mercenaries in this century?
Just to check,those images are the only reference on XVIII century sepoys in the book right?Also,jugding by the lack of information,Portugal does not seem to have used sowars (correct me if I'm wrong),so I guess their only native unit was this company of sepoys (the name of the company in the XIX century,"Companhia de Mouros, India e Macau",which would translate to "company of moors,indians and chinese" suggests that it was composed of natives from all portuguese colonies).
And now that you have Mr.Rodrigues permission,could you show some of those colonial troops with helmets?I'm specially interested in the black regiments you mentioned....

Very well. See below:
Fig 291-2 (1st 2 pics): Regimento do Infantaria Auxiliar da Vila do Principe (1786). Fig 293-4: Regimento do Infantaria Auxiliar da Arraial de Tejuco (1786), Fig 295-6: Regimento de Infantaria Auxiliar de Lavras do Funil (1787), Fig 297-8: Regimento de Infantaria Auxiliar de Juruoca (1787), Fig.299: Regimento de Infantaria Auxiliar da Vila de Sao José (1784-1806).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

More: Fig 319: 3° Regimento de Infantaria Auxiliar da Vila de Sao Joao D'El-Rei (1784). Fig 320-1 - 2° Terco de Infantaria Auxiliar do Inficionado (1786), Fig.322-3: Regimento de Infantaria Auxiliar de Guarapiranga (1780), Fig.324-5: Regimento de Cavalaria Auxiliar da Vila da Rainha (1786), Fig.326: Terco de Homens Pretos da Vila da Rainha (1786), 2° Terco de Infantaria do Termo do Inficionado (1786):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[D.Sebastian]

About our mysterious soldier,wouldn't his headgear be an earlier (XVII century) grenadier mitre like the ones used by the spanish grenadiers ?

[Geronimo2006]

Just to check,those images are the only reference on XVIII century sepoys in the book right?

The only pictures. There remains much to be translated.

About our mysterious soldier,wouldn't his headgear be an earlier (XVII century) grenadier mitre like the ones used by the spanish grenadiers ?

Maybe. But Mr Rodrigues said it is a turban, and that it was possible he was either fictional or foreign. The image is on the Elvas Gate in Portugal, and he says this sort of image was common at the time. But the gate does seem to have both late 17th century and 18th century images so you may have a point. But the decorations on the uniform resemble those of Turkish officers in ETW. Maybe they represent the enemy rather than Portuguese troops. Portugal had occasional clashes with the Turks in the Mediterranean in the 18th century.

I've just received two drawings of the statue of the other Grenadier at Elvas:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Ludicus]

. Portugal had occasional clashes with the Turks in the Mediterranean in the 18th century.

I tend to agree; it makes sense. The turban and the "turkish" moustache.

[KLAssurbanipal]

I think that this cap is similar to French Bombardiers de la Marine:

[Geronimo2006]

I think that this cap is similar to French Bombardiers de la Marine:

Maybe but somewhere on the mitre was a plate, unlike the in that picture. See this drawing of the statue at the Elvas Gate (on top of it - not the drawing on the tiles). It clearly has an image of an exploding grenade. There is also a ball at the top of the back of the hat. Another clue is the picture below from after the mitre was replaced with the bearskin. It seems that musicians still wore the mitres (see the drummer), which may also help us solve this mystery:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here is how Mr.Rodrigues describes the mitre in his book (alvadio=white-grey):

Cloth mazarine or alvadio with her yellow tassel, gold for officers. At the front, yellow brass plate with a grenade in high relief, for the officers, golden plate. The back, have a button fastening (?). All according to the figures.

Based on that, I would estimate that the grenade-image is emblazened or painted on a yellow-painted brass-plate at the front, with the back of the hat being mazarine-blue or white-grey cloth. So unlike the Bombardier de la Marine, the front and base of the hat is probably yellow brass (gold for officers), with the back being white-grey or mazarine-blue, with the ball being gold for officers and brass colour for the men under the officer's command. Based on the black-white picture, I think that the plate, as well as being the front of the mitre, was also the base of the hat.

As such, see below for my opinion on what the cap looked like:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Below is the description in the 300 Anoas book of the likely colours of the uniform, but Google Translate is not great with Portuguese so I hope someone who knows the language can given a better translation.:

De pano azul-ferrete ou de cor alvadia, aberta a frente sem bandas, com gola de voltar da cor da farda ou vermelho (era uma das cores distintivas mais em uso), botoes de latao amarelo com caseado bordado de la ou fio dourado (conforme o posto).. Canhoes das mangas vermelhos com tres botoes de latao amarelo, com caseados iguais aos da farda. A casaca tem de cada lado um botao de onde partem uma série de pincas, a fim de a tornar mais folgado, dando por isso, como era habito nessa altura, maior liberdade de movimentos aos exercicios militaires. Os bolsos sao desenhados no sentido da largura e tem umas pestanas largas, muito ao uso da epoca, sendo abotoadas por tres botoes com uma flor em relevo no centro, com o respectivo caseado a la ou fio de ouro de modelo diferente. a racha, na parte posterior da farda, tem tres caseados falsos de cada lado, bordado no mesmo tipo de fio indicado anteriormente. Meias de linho brancas e sapato de cordovao preto com fivela. A bolso para granadas, colocada a tiracolo,da esquerda para a direita, e muito decorada com motivos florais, tanto poderia ser de couro, ou de pano bordado a la amarela ou fio dourado, conforme o posto, suspensa por uma correia larga de couro branco.

Translated to English by Google Translate:

Cloth mazarine Alvadia or color, open the front without bands, with the back collar of his uniform and red color (it was one of the more distinctive colors in use), yellow brass buttons with buttonholes of wool or embroidery thread gold ( as the post) .. Cannons of red sleeves with three buttons of yellow brass, with buttonholes equal to the uniform. The coat has a button on each side from where a series of tweezers in order to make it more loose, thus giving, as was habit at that time, more freedom of movement for exercises militaires. The pockets are designed in the width direction and has eyelashes wide, much to the use of the time, and buttoned by three buttons embossed with a flower in the center with their buttonholes on it or gold wire of different model. the crack on the back of his uniform, has three false buttonholes on each side, embroidered in the same kind of wire shown above. Linen white socks and black cordovan shoes with buckles. The pockets for grenades, placed in tow, from left to right, and much decorated floral, both could be leather or cloth embroidery on it a yellow or golden wire, as the post was suspended by a wide leather belt white.

So: Coat: White-grey or Mazarine blue. Stockings: white. Cuffs and collar: Red. Pockets have either leather or gold-linen flower patterns. The pocket-buttons are gold, while the 3 on the cuffs are yellow-brass. See Mr.Rodrigues' drawing of uniform below:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

BTW D.Sebastian; MRR says that he doesn't know whether the Sepoys in India had the same uniforms as in Mozambique or not. He has sent me a long email describing the loss of documents in the Lisbon Earthquake/Tsunami in 1755 (most of the military archives were by the sea), followed by the destruction of archives during the Civil Wars of the 1820's (because "old" documents were seen as part of the 'Olf Regime'), followed by looting during the Napoleonic occupation (including jewels from the graves), and then even by the Portugal's British 'allies'. He also mentions that the intellectual-Left in Portugal are interested in preservation either:

Vou tentar explicar o que se passa sobre o estudo dos "uniformes militares" em Portugal e outras coisas ligadas ao mesmo tema:

Nunca em Portugal se deu a mínima importância ao estudo dos uniformes militares, até hoje praticamente só três pessoas se dedicaram a esses estudo: uma foi o Coronel Ribeiro Artur, que fez um levantamento da pouca legislação existente sobre uniformes, onde fez algumas aguarelas (que eu lhe irei enviar ao poucos) embora tenham alguns erros de pormenor. Este Coronel viveu nas últimas décadas do século XIX e na primeira do século XX.

A partir dessa data nada mais aconteceu sobre este assunto e a sua obra artística (não a de investigação) só foi divulgada, por uma colecção de postais ilustrados (post cards) e por minha iniciativa, no Jornal do Exército a partir sensivelmente de 1978.

Antes disso (decada de 50) apareceram uns desenhos feitos pelo pintor Carlos Ribeiro, que se limitou a fazer, por encomenda, para a Revista Defesa Nacional uma série de aguarelas, baseadas nos elementos que lhe deram, por isso muitos desses desenhos têm muitos erros.

Finalmente e actualmente sou eu, só que no meu caso a dedicação aos uniformes e à história militar, foi total e dediquei grande parte da minha vida e à minha custa ao estudo, pesquisa e investigação dos uniformes. isto praticamente desde 1963.

Na década de 1990 a 2000 fui ver os arquivos (o que restava deles...) em: Cabo Verde, Angola, Moçambique, Malaca, Goa, Diu, Damão, Brasil, Malta, Macau (onde publiquei um livro trilingue, português, inglês e mandarim, que se chama "400 anos de organização e uniformes militares em Macau) ; França em Vincenes, em Inglaterra (National Army Musuem, Imperial War Museum, British Library, Wellington Museum, etc), em Espanha, em Marrocos (onde fiz o levantamento das fortalezas portuguesas), na Bélgica (onde fiz a identificação de um uniforme português de oficial do Estado-Maior da Legião Portuguesa ao Serviço de Napoleão), estive nos arquivos em Itália, Alemanha, etc.,etc.

O meu arquivo pessoal no que diz respeito a documentação, livros, gravuras, etc. deve ser o mais completo sobre uniformes, organização, etc. do Exército Português (embora tenha muitos elementos de uniformes estrangeiros).

Com tudo isto quero apenas dizer que torna-se extremamente dif'icil responder à maioria das perguntas que me fazem, pelo simples facto de simplesmente não existirem elementos! Não há! Sobre os uniformes que me pede da Índia e mais elementos do Coronel, não lhe posso dar nada mais porque não existem.

A própria legislação ,quando se organiza uma unidade, ou qualquer outra força, nunca descrevem os uniformes, geralmente só dizem que "terá uniforme" e o seu custo será "descontado no soldo do militar". Mais nada! Por vezes ainda dizem "o uniformes será como o seu comandante entender". ou "como mais tarde se dirá" e pronto!

Depois houve a tragédia do terramoto de 1755 (já tinha havido outros antes), que deu origem a muitos incêndios e a um "tsunami" e praticamente o arsenal e os arquivos, eram juntos ao rio, e por ele foram tragados... depois houve o total desleixo de tudo que era arquivos públicos.

Incêndios sucederam-se, houve a partida da família real para o Brasil e dos arquivos e bibliotecas reais o que se pôde embarcar, embarcou o que não pôde ficou abandonado nas praias do rio Tejo. Vieram os franceses e tudo o que puderam roubaram e no impedimento de levar com eles destruíram, até os túmulos profanaram para ver se encontravam jóias e ouro. Depois no fim das invasões os nossos "aliados" ingleses levaram o que restou...

Passado pouco tempo houve uma guerra civil que tudo o que era referente ao "antigo regime" era anti-liberal e fizeram-se grandes destruições.

Com a chegada da República tornou-se a repetir as destruições e com a revolução do 25 de Abril de 1974 tudo o que era antigo era anti-democrático e houve mais destruições, acredite que o recheio das bibliotecas regimentais, foram ou destruídas ou vendidas a peso, aos negociantes de papel velho para destruir e reciclar?!

Por exemplo se for à Escola Prática de Artilharia em Vendas Novas, que ali está instalada há mais de 100 anos, a biblioteca e o arquivo histórico, além do museu não tem praticamente nada? Só coisas modernas e as mais antigas foram oferecidas por particulares?! Fotografias tiradas em 1880 no poligno têm cerca de7 ou 8. Sabe quantas eu tenho? Mais de 40!!

O Arquivo Histórico Militar poderemos dizer que é uma instituição "recente" e só começou a trabalhar a sério por volta da década de 40!

Ainda hoje os melhores elementos encontram-se nas mãos de particulares, que as têm ou por herança, ou por compras em leilões e livreiros antiquários.

Em França e em Inglaterra sempre houve a preocupação de guardar e preservar nos vossos arquivos e museus as coisas do passado militar. Aqui não, tudo o que era militar não interessava e ainda hoje é um pouco assim. Os intelectuais principalmente de uma "pseudo-esquerda" são anti-militares e nada disso interessa!

Daí as dificuldades que aqui temos em explicar as coisas, por exemplo o seu amigo D. Sebastian à viva força quer elementos do cipaios da Índia, não se sabe! O que existe são as figuras que publiquei no meu livro de Moçambique! Não há mais nada, nem texto, nada de nada!

Não se espante porque aqui ainda hoje é assim! Eu explico: faz uns anos fui contactado pelo Chefe-do-Estado Maior do Exército para desenhar uma farda de gala para a banda do exército e eu assim fiz. O uniforme foi aprovado e é utilizado actualmente.

Tirando o texto que eu fiz com os desenhos e a descrição do uniforme, não existe mais nada! Nada foi publicado! O Chefe do E.M. apenas deu ordem verbal e pronto! Hoje só eu possuo o Plano de Uniformes de Gala para a Banda do Exército! Um dia que se queira fazer a história desse uniforme não existem documentos e ninguém sabe de nada.!! Se hoje é assim, imagina há 200 ou 300 anos atrás...penso que está tudo explicado!

Depois existe um emaranhado de legislação que coloca uma pessoa louca. Por exemplo: publica-se um Plano de Uniformes nas Ordens do Exército; fazem-se ampliações a esse plano por Decreto avulso e alterações por circulares internas, ou por ordens colocadas no Boletim da Direcção da Arma de Artilharia (que está ligada ao Arsenal, onde se fazem as partes metálicas para os capacetes, emblemas, botões, etc), para o Ultramar a confusão ainda é maior. è que para além das leis da Metrópole, ainda havia as leias dos próprios governos locais (e ter acesso a essa documentação?....) só por milagre!

Depois sempre houve o hábito de se fazerem arquivos nas próprias colónias, o Arquivo Histórico de Luanda era extraordinário e muito rico, hoje e depois da independência e das guerra civil, nada resta, só lixo! Os únicos locais onde existe documentação é em Macau e no Brasil (e no Brasil devido ao reino ter ido para lá) o resto é uma miséria, um deserto.

No meio de tudo isto, aqui em Lisboa, no Arquivo Histórico Ultramarino, encontrei algumas coisas interessantes (e ninguém me garante que ali possa existir algo sobre os cipaios), mas praticamente nada está catalogado, nem classificado, é tudo "ao monte".

Os manuscritos são fornecidos por colónia e por, mais ou menos datas. Por exemplo Angola 1765, dão-lhe centenas de manuscritos (sem estarem classificados) de 1750 a 1780. E nós é que temos que os ler um, a um até, por acaso encontrar ou não algo que nos interessa...

Caro amigo. li centenas e centenas de manuscritos, por vezes. só para encontrar uma referência a algo militar que tivesse interesse para mim.

Confesso-lhe que isto é de loucos e só um louco como eu é que se meteu nisto! Mas diz-se aqui em Portugal "quem corre por gosto, não se cansa..."

Espero que tenha compreendido este longo mail e que veja as dificuldades que existem e por vezes não conseguir responder aquilo que vocês me pedem.

I'll try to explain what is happening on the study of "military uniforms" in Portugal and other things connected to the same theme:

Portugal has never made the slightest importance to the study of military uniforms, even today only three people were dedicated to these studies: one was Colonel Artur Ribeiro, who did a little survey of existing legislation on uniform, where he did some watercolors (which I'll send it to the few) although some errors of detail. The Colonel lived the last decades of the nineteenth century and the first of the twentieth century.

Thereafter nothing much happened on this subject and its artistic work (not research) was only disclosed by a collection of postcards (post cards) and on my initiative, the Journal of the Army from approximately 1978.

Before that (the 50) appeared a few drawings by the painter Carlos Ribeiro, who merely do, by order, to National Defense Magazine a series of watercolors based on the elements that gave him so many of these designs have many errors .

Finally, and now I'm only in my case the dedication to the uniforms and military history, and was totally devoted much of my life and my own expense to study, research and investigation of uniforms. it practically since 1963.

In the decade from 1990 to 2000 went to see the files (what was left of them ...) at: Cape Verde, Angola, Mozambique, Malacca, Goa, Diu, Daman, Brazil, Malta, Macau (which published a book in three languages, Portuguese, English and Mandarin, which is called "400 years of organization and military uniforms in Macao); bend his in France, England (National Army Musuem, Imperial War Museum, British Library, Wellington Museum, etc), Spain, Morocco (where I did a survey of the Portuguese fortresses), Belgium (where did the identification of a uniform Portuguese officer of the General Staff of the Portuguese Legion Service Napoleon), was in the archives in Italy, Germany, etc.. etc..

My personnel file regarding the documentation, books, prints, etc.. should be the most complete on uniforms, organization, etc.. Portuguese Army (although many elements of foreign uniforms).

With all this I just say that it is extremely dif'icil respond to most questions that make me, simply because simply there is no evidence! There! About the uniform asked me in India and most parts of the Colonel, can not give you anything more because they do not exist.

The legislation itself, when it organizes a unit, or any other force, never describe the uniforms, usually just say "will have uniform" and its cost will be "cashed in the pay of the military." Nothing else! Sometimes still say "uniform will be like his master to understand." or "How was later to say" and voila!

Then there was the tragedy of the earthquake of 1755 (there had been others before), which led to many fires and a tsunami and nearly the arsenal and the files were along the river, and were swallowed up by it ... then there was the total neglect of everything that was public archives.

Fire ensued, there was the departure of the royal family to Brazil and the royal archives and libraries that one might embark, embarked on what could not been abandoned on the beaches of the Tagus River. The French came and stole everything they could and prevented from bringing with them destroyed, until the graves were desecrated to see jewels and gold. After the end of the invasions of our "allies" British took what was left ...

Shortly thereafter there was a civil war that everything was referring to the "old regime" was anti-liberal and there have been major destruction.

With the arrival of the Republic became a repeat of the destruction and the revolution of April 25, 1974 all that was old was anti-democratic and there was more destruction, believe that the filling of the regimental libraries were destroyed or sold or weight, merchants of old paper to destroy and recycle?!

For example if the Artillery Training School at Vendas Novas, that there is place for more than 100 years, the library and historical archive, and the museum has almost nothing? Only things modern and older were offered by individuals?! Photographs taken in 1880 in Poligné have about 8 or DE7. Know how many I have? Over 40!

The Military Historical Archive can say that an institution is "recent" and just started to get serious about the 40's!

Even today the best elements are in the hands of individuals who have them, or by inheritance, or by shopping at auctions and antique booksellers.

In France and England always had the desire to save and preserve your archives and museums in the things of the past militarism. Not here, all that was not interested in military and is still a little way. Intellectuals mainly from a "pseudo-left" are anti-military and nothing matters!

Hence the difficulties we have here to explain things, for example your friend D. Sebastian wants to live force elements of the Indian sepoys, who knows! What exists are the figures I published my book in Mozambique! There is nothing else, no text, no nothing!

Do not be surprised because here is still so! Let me explain: some years ago I was contacted by Chief-of-the Army to design a uniform gala for the army band and so I did. The uniform was approved and is currently used.

Apart from the text that I did with the drawings and description of the uniform, nothing else! Nothing has been published! The Chief E.M. only gave verbal order and ready! Today only I hold the Gala Uniform Plan for the Army Band! A day that wants to make history that uniform no documents and no one knows anything.! If today is so, imagine there are 200 or 300 years ago ... I think everything is explained!

Then there is a tangle of legislation that puts a person crazy. For example, to publish a plan in Uniform Orders of the Army; extensions are made to this plan by decree for loose change and internal circulars, or orders placed in the Bulletin of the Directorate of Artillery Weapon (which is linked to Arsenal where are the metal parts for the helmets, badges, buttons, etc.), the Overseas confusion is even greater. and beyond the laws of the Metropolis, there were still leias the local governments themselves (and have access to this information ?....) it was a miracle!

Then there was always the habit of making files in their own colony, the Historical Archives of Luanda was extraordinary and very rich, now and after independence and civil war, there is nothing, just trash! The only places where there is documentation in Macau and Brazil (in Brazil and because of the kingdom have gone there) the rest is a misery, a desert.

Amid all that, here in Lisbon Overseas Historical Archive, I found some interesting things (and no one can guarantee me that there might be something about the sepoys), but virtually nothing is listed or classified, is that "the mountain".

The manuscripts are provided by the colony and, more or less dates. For example Angola in 1765, gives you hundreds of manuscripts (without being classified) from 1750 to 1780. And we do have to read them one by one until, by chance or not find something that interests us ...

Dear friend. I read hundreds and hundreds of manuscripts, sometimes. only to find a reference to something that had military interest to me.

I confess that this is crazy and only a fool like me is that they got it! But it says here in Portugal "who runs for pleasure, never tires ..."

I hope you have understood this long email and see the difficulties that exist and sometimes can not answer what you ask me.

[D.Sebastian]

Poor Mr.Rodrigues,I knew that the situation of the portuguese military historians wasn't easy,but I never knew it was that hard.After reding his reply,I somehow admire him even more,for his courage of working on a so unknow subject.Please send him my compliments for his enormous effort.
Back on topic,we dont know the uniform of the indian sepoys,but we know they did exist,dont we?The military of portuguese India is really confuse...BTW,do you know if the Guard Cavalry Regiment of the Viceroy of India existed during the entire century? And if so,was it the only cavalry regiment in portuguese India?
Also,Mr.Rodrigues didnt say anything more about the Alorna Legion,did he?

[Geronimo2006]

Poor Mr.Rodrigues,I knew that the situation of the portuguese military historians wasn't easy,but I never knew it was that hard.After reding his reply,I somehow admire him even more,for his courage of working on a so unknow subject.Please send him my compliments for his enormous effort.
Back on topic,we dont know the uniform of the indian sepoys,but we know they did exist,dont we?The military of portuguese India is really confuse...BTW,do you know if the Guard Cavalry Regiment of the Viceroy of India existed during the entire century? And if so,was it the only cavalry regiment in portuguese India?
Also,Mr.Rodrigues didnt say anything more about the Alorna Legion,did he?

Well I know the Sepoys existed beforehand in India because I read it on an old book on the internet (maybe by A.D. Francis or another author). From what I have read online, some of the Sepoys in Mozambique seem to have been recruited in Goa, while others were from Africa. I have just asked him your questions about the Alorna Legion and the Viceroy's Guard Cavalry.

I've also found this picture of the Legion of Alorna but I don't know the date (the website heading says the site covers 1790-1820):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think before the Alorna Legion was formed, the Marquis of Alorna got into trouble during the Tavora Affair (when 1,000 people were tortured into making confessions of trying to kill King Jose I and the Tavora family were executed - possibly an excuse by the Prime Minister Pombal to eliminate opponents in the aristocracy and the Jesuits who resented his attempt to centralise power) but was eventually exonerated. Alorna getting a command later on may have been partly because Jose's successor, Maria I, hated Pombal because of his treatment of the Tavora's and the Jesuits (so much so she passed a law that Pombal had to be at least 20km from her at all times).

[Ludicus]

The amazing collaboration of Mr.Ribeiro & Geronimo...
I am truly delighted...

[Geronimo2006]

The amazing collaboration of Mr.Ribeiro & Geronimo...
I am truly delighted...

Mr Rodrigues.

[Ludicus]

Mr Rodrigues.

yep, Ribeiro Rodrigues.