Portugal - Discussion Thread

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

I will try to find it.
----
From Boicote, Portuguese grenadier, 1740.

can you try to find more 1762 ones? for myself.

[Geronimo2006]

Interesting,but were the dragoon helmets part of the oficial uniform?I know that the cavalry regiments aparrently adopted helmets too at the end of the century,as we can see in this picture of a private from the bragança regiment in 1799 (Who also wears a cuirass.Is there any information on the book about it?Aparently those were also used by the cavalry regiments at the beggining of the century.)
The book does not have any pictures of metropolitan (non-colonial) dragoons, does it?
And one last thing,is there any good information on the dress of the cavalry before the reforms of 1763 ?

Well my other book (The Portuguese Army during the War of the Spanish Succession by Pat Condray (1992)) believes that the early Portuguese dragoon probably wore a Montiero cap, based on a Dutch description from the time. Interestingly, a picture placed on the forums recently shows (top right hand side) a cavalryman wearing a Montero cap. So it's possible that is what was worne by the early dragoons.

[Geronimo2006]

Interesting,but were the dragoon helmets part of the oficial uniform?I know that the cavalry regiments aparrently adopted helmets too at the end of the century,as we can see in this picture of a private from the bragança regiment in 1799 (Who also wears a cuirass.Is there any information on the book about it?Aparently those were also used by the cavalry regiments at the beggining of the century.)
The book does not have any pictures of metropolitan (non-colonial) dragoons, does it?
And one last thing,is there any good information on the dress of the cavalry before the reforms of 1763 ?

One thing I would note from that picture you linked to is - based on the "300 Anos" book that arrived a few days ago, is that almost all the Portuguese cavalry from Portugal itself from 1764 to the end of the 18th century seem to have worn that sort of colour scheme i.e. Prussian blue top and yellow-trousers. I have a lot of pictures in the book from the 1780's and the cavalry are all wearing Prussian blue tops and yellow trousers. But for a couple of units in 1764, the blue is much lighter. I also suspect, given the red sash around your Cuirassier's waist, that he is a commanding-officer.

[Ludicus]

can you try to find more 1762 ones? for myself.

Lippe reforms? Uniform colours, 1777:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Infantry:

Artillery

Cavalry

I have some images from 1783 (Artillery,cavalry, infantry and naval infantry) Are you interested?

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

Lippe reforms? Uniform colours, 1777:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Infantry:

Artillery

Cavalry

I have some images from 1783 (Artillery,cavalry, infantry and naval infantry) Are you interested?

that is not what I meant-the uniforms just before the Lippe reforms were introduced.

[D.Sebastian]

Geronimo,what exactly would a Montiero cap be?
Ludicus,could you post those pictures?
And to everybody,would it be correct to say that after the lippe reforms,the differences between dragoon and cavalry regiments were abolished,at least in the metropolitan army?

[Geronimo2006]

Geronimo,what exactly would a Montiero cap be?
Ludicus,could you post those pictures?
And to everybody,would it be correct to say that after the lippe reforms,the differences between dragoon and cavalry regiments were abolished,at least in the metropolitan army?

They are similar to baseball-caps. I noticed some in pictures someone linked to somewhere on the forum. See a Montiero cap below:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The cavalryman in the 3rd picture below appears to be wearing such a cap:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I also strongly suspect that the word "bandeirantes" is on that page (2nd line). The bandeirantes were the Brazilian equivalent of the bandoleiros in Spanish-America i.e. sortof like cowboys. There is some similarity between the pictures in the second row and these pictures of bandeirantes below:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[D.Sebastian]

Actually the men on the 2nd line are "ordenanças" ,kind of a portuguese levy/militia.

[Geronimo2006]

What book are those pictures from, D.Sebastian? Does anyone know?

[Ludicus]

The bandeirantes were the Brazilian equivalent of the bandoleiros in Spanish-America i.e. sortof like cowboys.

Bandeirantes were slave/Indian raiders. In the 1650-1670s, because of their formidable reputaton as Indian fighters, bandeirantes were called by the authorities in Bahia to conducte punitive expeditions against unsubdued Indians in the northest backlands.

Ludicus,could you post those pictures

Lippe uniforms?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Second regiment, Naval infantry, 1783



First regiment, navy infantry, 1783



Porto, artillery, 1783




Infantry, 1797

[Geronimo2006]

Thanks Ludicus. Excellent work! Seems to confirm what the Juniorgeneral.com site said the post-Lippe marines looked like. I will make two versions of my mod. One version will have the early marines on ships, while the other will have the late marines. Both units will be available as land units in both versions of the mod.

[D.Sebastian]

From which book are those uniforms Ludicus?

[Geronimo2006]

I have just found more information on cavalry uniforms in 1740. The early (1740) uniforms of the Cavalry Regiments of Cais, and Alcantara, , wore white and alvadia coats respectively (the Cais uniform in my mod is from 1764). Note that these are not the same colour in this case. The uniforms were of the same kind as the infantry, but it was white for Cais and white-grey (alvadia) overcoats for Alcantara. Alcantara also had red breeces, cuffs and waistcoat. General James Wolfe, I think I should let you know that the colour "Encarnado" translates on 'Google Translate" as "red". Furthermore, in the 300 Anos book, the 1741 1st Infantry Regiment of Goa, which is listed as having "encarnado" cuffs, clearly has red-cuffs in the picture. I thought I would let you know this given that on your kronoskaf site, "Encarnado" seems to be dark pink e.g the Beira infantry plate should probably have red braiding instead of pink.

[Ludicus]

From which book are those uniforms Ludicus?

"Os uniformes Portugueses na Guerra Peninsular". Chapter, " Os uniformes do Conde de Lippe", Pedro Soares Branco.




From "Campanhas Navais, José Rodrigues Pereira

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Navy:

Encarnado" translates on 'Google Translate" as "red"

Correct, "encarnado" or red.
"Rosa" or pink rose.

[D.Sebastian]

I'm curious ludicus, what exactly were the "guardas marinhas" ?
And does anyone knows if there were any distinctions between the dragoons and cavalry regiments?If so,were those lost after the Lippe reforms?

[Geronimo2006]

I'm curious ludicus, what exactly were the "guardas marinhas" ?
And does anyone knows if there were any distinctions between the dragoons and cavalry regiments?If so,were those lost after the Lippe reforms?

Well I do know that those red-coats were not introduced in the navy until the closing part of the century. They replaced the greencoats around then. I am surprised though that Ludicus's picture shows them in redcoats in 1782. I know the greencoats remained under the Lippe reforms. Ludicus: any idea exactly when the navy introduced the redcoats? Looks to me that the green uniforms and redcoats may have existed in parallel for a while because your above pictures from 1782-3 have both uniforms. The Guarda-marinha appear to have been akin to trainee officers or cadets, according to the translation of wikipedia by Google Translate:

The rank of midshipman was initially created in 1761To be attributed to young people who enlist on board a vessel of war to receive training in order to become officers of the Portuguese Navy. The post had similar characteristics to the cadet of ArmyBut were comparable in terms of wages and badges, that of lieutenant of Infantry. In 1782 was created Company of the Marine Guard for framing. It was later also created the post of aspirant midshipman, Lower-ranking but also framed in the Company of the Marine Guard. In 1796 was created Royal Academy of Guard Marine. The Company and the Academy of Marine Guard gave rise to Naval Academy in 1845. Although the students of the Naval Academy no longer has the rank of midshipman, while attending the post is still reserved for officials from that school.

[Ludicus]

Looks to me that the green uniforms and redcoats may have existed in parallel for a while because your above pictures from 1782-3 have both uniforms

Yep.

The Guarda-marinha appear to have been akin to trainee officers or cadets

Exactly.

[Geronimo2006]

Yep.

Exactly.

Ludicus, do you know exactly when the greencoats were replaced with redcoats? I understand that happened around the end of the 18th century.

BTW, congratulations to Carricanta for finding this model of the Moura Regiment in 1704:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

Ludicus, do you know exactly when the greencoats were replaced with redcoats? I understand that happened around the end of the 18th century.

well, since red and green are mixed in the c. 1782 pictures, its reasonable to assume that this is when the process began. actual practical replacement was apparently gradual, taking at least a few years.

mind you this says nothing about when the regulations decreeing the red uniform were issued-just when they were applied. we see something similar in Prussia in the seven years war, with standards being replaced only gradually, with most dragoon regiments in he 1750's still using the old flag model.

EDIT: I did read your latest PM, and have already considered it. I'm honestly surprised at the two contrasting depictions of the regiment in regards to the waistcoat..

I have also PM'd the army people who own the plates, and hope to hear something soon. perhaps that will clear some of the mess. I already have a reply from the bibliography offices.

[Geronimo2006]

Geronimo,what exactly would a Montiero cap be?
Ludicus,could you post those pictures?
And to everybody,would it be correct to say that after the lippe reforms,the differences between dragoon and cavalry regiments were abolished,at least in the metropolitan army?

The section in the '300 Anos' book on the Lippe Reforms is very long and in the Portuguese language. I will need help translating it. I will post information here soon and hopefully you can help me translate it. Carricanta says he is on holiday.