Portugal - Discussion Thread

[Geronimo2006]

do you have any furthur information on the portuguese army uniforms in the seven years war?

we need information for several regiments over at Kronoskaf, and honestly, the ones already there need an update.

(the encarnandas is off on the uniforms, and will need changing-among other things. since I'm responsible for the Iberian armies, I feel that they could use improvement. I just need more sources.)

Hi Gen.James Wolfe. I have a question.

Your website cites a book called "300 Anos de Uniformes Militares do Exército de Portugal 1660-1960" as a source for your uniforms. Do you have the book? I would like to know if there is any information on Portuguese uniforms during the War of the Spanish Succession, as this information is very hard to come by. I have a book called "The Portuguese Army during the War of the Spanish Succession" by it has no colour pictures and very few pictures at all.

I found this picture of 18th century Portuguese units but the text is too tiny for me to read. Do you have any information on the names of these units? I think one of them is a Pardo (Brazilian Black) militia called the Pardos of Paraiba.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

BTW my Portuguese unit pack v1.2 is now ready for download. It is compatible with Darthmod but not with my Portuguese Marines Mod.

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

Hi Gen.James Wolfe. I have a question.

Your website cites a book called "300 Anos de Uniformes Militares do Exército de Portugal 1660-1960" as a source for your uniforms. Do you have the book? I would like to know if there is any information on Portuguese uniforms during the War of the Spanish Succession, as this information is very hard to come by. I have a book called "The Portuguese Army during the War of the Spanish Succession" by it has no colour pictures and very few pictures at all.

I found this picture of 18th century Portuguese units but the text is too tiny for me to read. Do you have any information on the names of these units? I think one of them is a Pardo (Brazilian Black) militia called the Pardos of Paraiba.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

BTW my Portuguese unit pack v1.2 is now ready for download. It is compatible with Darthmod but not with my Portuguese Marines Mod.

I do not have the book I'm afraid; the book is with Juan Jose Torres in Spain. he lent me the pictures inside that pertained to the SYW, and I used those to make the uniform plates in the website. the pictures themselves I am not allowed to share, so you'll have to contact Juan. he works at a group called Alabarda.

as to the plate you provide: unless I have a year attached to them, I can't make use of these plates. but thanks nonetheless. the uniform apparently underwent much change during the war, similar in scope to that underwen by Austria, and later on the US. that is why I need to know the year.

[Geronimo2006]

I do not have the book I'm afraid; the book is with Juan Jose Torres in Spain. he lent me the pictures inside that pertained to the SYW, and I used those to make the uniform plates in the website. the pictures themselves I am not allowed to share, so you'll have to contact Juan. he works at a group called Alabarda.

as to the plate you provide: unless I have a year attached to them, I can't make use of these plates. but thanks nonetheless. the uniform apparently underwent much change during the war, similar in scope to that underwen by Austria, and later on the US. that is why I need to know the year.

Have you seen all the SYW-related images in the book or are there more than those on Kronoskaf.com?

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

Have you seen all the SYW-related images in the book or are there more than those on Kronoskaf.com?

yup-every single one-have to-afterall, I'm supposed to illustrate the entire list of regimental uniforms. you are literally looking at the entire list of regiments fromt the book, from the era. should be 5 or 6, over 3 regiments.

they also have a table with some info, but its basically garbage to us; the table lacks the detail needed to reconstruct the uniforms. they do not show details of button arangement, color of shoulder straps (if any), or pattern of the pockets-all of which matter in describing the uniform.

I can however, tell you sth about the illustrations: they clearly date from the 1700's, judging from the style, and were made as part of an official sanction (otherwise, we'd see regiments haphazardly drawn over multiple pages, instead of the organized format; look up the Albertina Handschrift in the NYPL catalogue. its online). I have three possible years of commision: 1762, 1776, and 1793-96. this is based on the bibliography of the book, which shows three sources that fit the bill, from those years.

the catalogue nature of the pictures is also confirmed by an isolated picture of a dragoon (unknown regiment), which is in the exact same style as the others.

in fact, arqnet iirc has a black and white picture of the style in question (though I've heard they've since switched to color).

perhaps you can tell me where it originally came from?

edit: the suspects:

Instrucoes Militares los soldados portugueses, Despertador de Marte, 1762
Regimentos Militares de 1710 a 1796. Lisbon, 1797
Coleccao das leis, Decreto e Alvaras que compreende o feliz reinado d'El-Rei Fidelissimo D.Jose I. Lisbon, 1776

[Geronimo2006]

GJW, could you ask him to describe the uniforms in the book for the Portuguese army in the early 1700's? I don't know the picture you are referring to.

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

GJW, could you ask him to describe the uniforms in the book for the Portuguese army in the early 1700's? I don't know the picture you are referring to.

the picture I'm referring to is of a soldier in 1762, white coat, red facings-gun flipped upside down.

as to contacting Juan: as I said, that is up to you.

[Geronimo2006]

the picture I'm referring to is of a soldier in 1762, white coat, red facings-gun flipped upside down.

as to contacting Juan: as I said, that is up to you.

What are his contact details?

Are you talking about this picture:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I have no idea of the primary-source. But it corresponds with the most common Portuguese uniform colours in Portugal itself before the SYW. Vermillion (referred to in sources in the WSS as vermelho) was the most common livery-colour of the Portuguese military gentry, and so vermillion red distinctions were the most common colour for cuffs/linings since the beginning of the 18th century. So it could be almost any regiment - and not necessarily one of those that originally wore those colours earlier in the century. For example, Kronoskaf says the Porto and Chaves Regiments (except the Beira Battalion) wore blue or green coats rather than white in the SYW. But Chaves and Porto wore the above colours in the WSS though with different coloured decorations for officers.

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

What are his contact details?

Are you talking about this picture:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I have no idea of the primary-source. But it corresponds with the most common Portuguese uniform colours in Portugal itself before the SYW. Vermillion (referred to in sources in the WSS as vermelho) was the most common livery-colour of the Portuguese military gentry, and so vermillion red distinctions were the most common colour for cuffs/linings since the beginning of the 18th century. So it could be almost any regiment - and not necessarily one of those that originally wore those colours earlier in the century. For example, Kronoskaf says the Porto and Chaves Regiments (except the Beira Battalion) wore blue or green coats rather than white in the SYW. But Chaves and Porto wore the above colours in the WSS though with different coloured decorations for officers.

José Torres Juan Escobar: juantorrescobar@telefonica.net

do NOT tell him who sent you. as far as I or you are concerned, you did this on your initiative. I cannot guartantee that he has the book still, but you can give him a try. if he asks how you know about him, tell him its because you saw his name on the collaborator's list in the SYW project at kronoskaf,a nd the organization he works at.

as to the picture: correct-that's the one. the style of the others is the same as this one: the aquat proportions, big eye, the style of gaiter illustration, etc. but I see that you have no idea where it came from either, or what regiment it belongs to.

[Geronimo2006]

José Torres Juan Escobar: juantorrescobar@telefonica.net

do NOT tell him who sent you. as far as I or you are concerned, you did this on your initiative. I cannot guartantee that he has the book still, but you can give him a try. if he asks how you know about him, tell him its because you saw his name on the collaborator's list in the SYW project at kronoskaf,a nd the organization he works at.

as to the picture: correct-that's the one. the style of the others is the same as this one: the aquat proportions, big eye, the style of gaiter illustration, etc. but I see that you have no idea where it came from either, or what regiment it belongs to.

Thanks GJW. +1.

I've just remembered something. The Armada (navy) is listed on kronoskaf as fighting in the SYW. Since 1725, the Armada uniform had been a Green coat with Red distinctions. Regarding the question of whether they wore cross-straps during the SYW itself (Lippe re-organised the army along Prussian lines during and after the war), I have a picture in a book showing them also wearing cross-straps/baldrick in 1720.I made a skin of it's uniforms under the Lippe reforms based on a picture on juniorgeneral.org (except the hat appears laced with white - not gold as in my textures - and I'm unsure whether they wore a wig):Junior General Picture:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

My depiction:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On the SYW itself, juniorgeneral also has a few pictures hinting at the uniforms of un-names regimentds but also of the commanding-officers and drummers. See below:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I also have a few pictures of SYW regiments: Fusiliers (2nd Regiment of Porto 1762):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2nd Regiment of Chaves (1762):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Auxiliar Grenadiers 2nd Regiment of Porto:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

White-red was worn by the following regiments in the early 1700's which makes it very hard to pin down which that regiment in the picture is: Chaves, Porto, Nova de Moura, Corte Real, Caminha, Moura, Olivencia, Almeida, Castelo de Vide, Lagos (and possibly Braganza, Faro and Bras de Silveira too).

But I have read that white was still the most common Portuguese coat colour during the SYW - except perhaps towards the end.But they also wore blue, green and even brown.

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

Thanks GJW. +1.

I've just remembered something. The Armada (navy) is listed on kronoskaf as fighting in the SYW. Since 1725, the Armada uniform had been a Green coat with Red distinctions. Regarding the question of whether they wore cross-straps during the SYW itself (Lippe re-organised the army along Prussian lines during and after the war), I have a picture in a book showing them also wearing cross-straps/baldrick in 1720.I made a skin of it's uniforms under the Lippe reforms based on a picture on juniorgeneral.org (except the hat appears laced with white - not gold as in my textures - and I'm unsure whether they wore a wig):Junior General Picture:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

My depiction:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On the SYW itself, juniorgeneral also has a few pictures hinting at the uniforms of un-names regimentds but also of the commanding-officers and drummers. See below:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I also have a few pictures of SYW regiments: Fusiliers (2nd Regiment of Porto 1762):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2nd Regiment of Chaves (1762):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Auxiliar Grenadiers 2nd Regiment of Porto:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

White-red was worn by the following regiments in the early 1700's which makes it very hard to pin down which that regiment in the picture is: Chaves, Porto, Nova de Moura, Corte Real, Caminha, Moura, Olivencia, Almeida, Castelo de Vide, Lagos (and possibly Braganza, Faro and Bras de Silveira too).

But I have read that white was still the most common Portuguese coat colour during the SYW - except perhaps towards the end.But they also wore blue, green and even brown.

thanks! but the grenadier is actually from the 1st porto, not the 2nd. he's the fellow I made the uniform from in kronoskaf. well, at least it says its 1st porto in the book plate.

if you can find more plates of that style, let me know.

also, juniogeneral is really small, and lacks the needed details-I need pictures as detailed as the plates, preferebly from the 18th century.

[D.Sebastian]

Gen.jamesWolfe,do you still remmeber what the dragoon's uniform was like?I'm curious,there are some pictures of the cavalry regiments,but all the portuguese dragoons I've seen are colonial units...

[Geronimo2006]

Well at least you can see the drum uniforms and that will be of some value for the site which has no info on musicians for the Portuguese army om the site.

KLA, I have some more info on the Portuguese pikemen you might want to consider reflecting in the mod. They seem to have been dropped in 1703. From my book:

The Portuguese infantry at the start of the war was organised into twenty-one tercios, each of which consisted of 1,000 men. The company was now just 100 men strong, and included its captain, lieutenant, ensign, and fourriel, 2 sergeants, a drummer, three corporals, and 90 enlisted men. After 1703 the pikemen, already reduced to no more than 10 to 15 at most, were ordered to train with the flintlock.

Also, this is what the 1721 infantry uniform regulation says:

The white gray or Alvadia color is confirmed in a uniform regulation of 1721 called EMBORO O REGIMENTO DA JUNTA DOS TRES ESTADO of 21 December 1721. The portion cited by Kuhn, tracks with our data from Colonel Ferreira Correia: "Each man is to be dressed in a good wool cloth produced in this kingdom, of 5 1/2 palms to 6 palms width, this coat should be of the color alvadia (white gray) for the entire infantry and will do for vest and trousers...the coat is to be lined in serafina of the same alvadia color - as good as that for the cavalry. These clothes to be supplemented by distinctions of various colors red, blue, green etc. to distinguish the appearance of the coat linings/ These colors are to be determined according to the wishes of the various colonels. Stockings are to be white. The hats trimmed with white lace. The boots of the cavalry of an expensive and heavy form, the cavalry overcoats to be of the common alvadia color".

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

Gen.jamesWolfe,do you still remmeber what the dragoon's uniform was like?I'm curious,there are some pictures of the cavalry regiments,but all the portuguese dragoons I've seen are colonial units...

still have it, but its on the computer, not online.

and honestly, its useless to me until I know where it came from.

I'll try to upload it on the weekend-Hve to go to school and work today.

[Geronimo2006]

still have it, but its on the computer, not online.

and honestly, its useless to me until I know where it came from.

I'll try to upload it on the weekend-Hve to go to school and work today.

I think I vaguely recall it. Is it the black and white (or maybe monochrome blue and white picture) one with a helmet very like that of the generic dragoon (caps not tricornes) in ETW?

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

I think I vaguely recall it. Is it the black and white (or maybe monochrome blue and white picture) one with a helmet very like that of the generic dragoon (caps not tricornes) in ETW?

no: navy blue faced white/pale buff, with a dress and accoutoring in the Austrian Model:

[Geronimo2006]

no: navy blue faced white/pale buff, with a dress and accoutoring in the Austrian Model:

Any idea what year? Were they native Portuguese or colonial units? I suspect they wouldn't be before 1740 because Portuguese uniforms tended to be very old-fashioned e.g. in my book, a fusilier and a grenadier in 1740 are still wearing Spanish Succession War-type uniforms with fastened coats. Also, like the infantry, most of the cavalry in Portugal (though perhaps not the colonies) in the early 18th century were wearing white coats with various coloured distinctions. I have absolutely no idea what regiment that is.

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

Any idea what year? Were they native Portuguese or colonial units? I suspect they wouldn't be before 1740 because Portuguese uniforms tended to be very old-fashioned e.g. in my book, a fusilier and a grenadier in 1740 are still wearing Spanish Succession War-type uniforms with fastened coats. Also, like the infantry, most of the cavalry in Portugal (though perhaps not the colonies) in the early 18th century were wearing white coats with various coloured distinctions. I have absolutely no idea what regiment that is.

since that is in the style of those infantry plates I used for kronoskaf, and none show any year outside 1762, then this dragoon and his officer are also from 1762.

that, and that's what the guy who gave me this said.

also, the quality and equipment do not match what I know about colonial units, which indicates that this is depicting soldiers from a native portuguese unit, not colonials.

in fact, it seems that "source X" only has pitctures of portuguese native regments, not colonial ones, since I don't know nay depicting colonial troops from that source..

[Geronimo2006]

I have good news. I have paid for the book "300 Anos de Uniformes Militares do Exército de Portugal (1660-1960)". Hopefully when it comes it will tell us some of the answers we are looking for.

In the meantime: Cavalry-man 1750 apparently:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Apparently, this is a Grenadier from approx 1740:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The man in the portrait is the Marques das Minas (remembered for briefly occupying Madrid in 1706).

[Ludicus]

The white gray or Alvadia color is confirmed in a uniform regulation of 1721

Yep. Some descriptions from the book "Os uniformes Portugueses da Guerra Peninsular", Pedro Soares Branco.

" ... só durante a segunda metade do século XVII, com a emergência de verdadeiros exércitos nacionais, as diferentes cores se foram associando aos diferente países. Por razões não inteiramente esclarecidas, muitos estados católicos tenderam a adoptar para os seus uniformes, o branco e o cinzento, ao passo que a maioria dos estados protestantes optaram por pelo azul-escuro, encarnado e verde. Isto poderá explicar em parte, a côr alvadia usada pelo exército Português durante a Guerra da Sucessão Espanhola, e mais tarde, a côr azul adoptada sob os auspícios do Conde de Lippe"

In the meantime: Cavalry-man 1750 apparently:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Cavalry helmet, second half of the 18th century:


Description: " Este magnífico capacete é sem dúvida uma das mais raras peças de militaria que se conservam em Portugal. Em couro moldado, cinzelado e parcialmente dourado, apresenta uma crista ornada por crina branca, com fieiras centrais de crina preta. As guarnições, em metal dourado, indicam que se destinava a um oficial. Sob o rebordo posterior do casco aqpresenta uma série de pequenas argolas provavelmente destinadas a fixar um cobre-nuca" (Museu Militar)

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Any idea what year? ... I suspect they wouldn't be before 1740

Indeed. Probably from 1783 (?)

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I found this picture of 18th century Portuguese units but the text is too tiny for me to read. Do you have any information on the names of these units? I think one of them is a Pardo (Brazilian Black) militia called the Pardos of Paraiba.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Colonial Brazil...
Take a look:ARQUIVO HISTÓRICO - Museu Histórico Nacional

[Geronimo2006]

still have it, but its on the computer, not online.

and honestly, its useless to me until I know where it came from.

I'll try to upload it on the weekend-Hve to go to school and work today.

Are you sure that picture is a cavalry uniform?

The 300 Anos book came today and it also contains some non-pictorial descriptions of Portuguese uniforms in 1759 of regiments mentioned but not depicted in images on Kronoskaf. ( for 'guns' read 'canhoes' in book). Hope this helps:

Infantry Regiments:

Faro:
Livery: White
Canhoes (sleeves?): Yellow
Lining: Mazarine blue (this colour).
Waist-coat: White.
Shorts: White

Lisboa:
Livery: Light-blue.
Canhoes (sleeves): Light-blue.
Lining: Light-blue
Waist-coat: Light-blue
Shorts:Light-blue.

Peniche:
Livery: White
Canhoes (sleeves?): Encarnado
Lining: White
Waist-coat: White
Shorts: White

Algarve Artillery:
Livery: Green
Canhoes (of Sleeves?): Encarnado
Lining: Green
Waist-coat: Green
Shorts:Green.

Also, A Google translation of an extract from the book:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As we have indicated, most uniforms were colored Alvados, however, there were exceptions as can be seen. It was after a long research paper that found the evidence scattered sections of the Military-Historical Archive. What actually came to a poua light on this subject are the gender relations that are missing for uniforms, the request for uniforms and Panos Receipts for Gender Uniforms, etc..

Dr. Silva Lopes, in his work, asks: Was there temporary abandonment and somehow generalized alvadio cloth between the publication of the Rules of the Board Member of the Three (1721) and War of 1762? Given the evidence I have, I answer affirmatively on this question, and, by virtue of the documents consulted, one can see that:

-In 1759, the Commander of the Infantry Regiment of Porto pair called their 1641 men and more than three Constables Fortresses of the Navy, netting his men whose uniform was green, lining the same color, red cannons of the sleeves, shorts and green wore white. in the same document are asked to also pans for the 1458 men of the regiment of infantry of keys, which was a garrison in the port and was headed by Antonio D. of Lancaster, who gave a far-mazarine, liner same or, the mana cannon red, the color of his uniform trousers and white waistcoat.

-- The Artillery regmento the Algarve, which totaled 342 gunners, all uniformed in green with the cannons of the sleeves and red waistcoat.

- The artillery regiment of Beira color Alvadia uniforms and the guns of the sleeves were green.

- The Infantry Regiment of the Algarve with a total of 1284 militaires was divided into two, one in Faro and the other in Tavira. Both total burden of white, the first of the cannons and other yellow sleeves mazarine.

In a letter sent by Vilar Maior, addressed to D. Luis da Cunha, dated January 18 d 1759, reads: "For the uniforms of the regiments of the garrison of Peniche, which this province is just what is so uniform and poorly clad soldiers as seen in the posting that came to this Court. There is in store the food needed, but missing panels, which tells Lieutenant General Antonio Soares de Mendonca, who has no doubts in selling at the price of $ 585 reis the cubit, that in 3603 one third of white cloth and 180 2 / 3 cubits of cloth red, that it lacks for the said Rules, regardless of the amount of $ 2,219 490, which may have given to the purchaser's Tenecia for this purchase. What you have to participate. so doing this with MS. determines that the same Lord is served. God keep V, Exa.