Portugal - Discussion Thread

[Vítor Gaspar]

What an amazing job, from you, Geronomio, and Sr. Rodrigues! Absolutely amazing!

I've got to ask you - what convinced you to give your soul to help in a project about Portugal in the 18th century? Also, where are you from?

Because what you've been doing here so far no Portuguese has ever had the balls and the passion to do that, with a few exceptions of course.

+Rep!

[drum major]

Olá Sr.
Sebastião José de Carvalho e Mello ou seja Marquês de Pombal. Por mim apenas lhe digo que sou de Lisboa e resido em Queluz.

Sou "Drum Major" porque gosto muito de música militar.
está satisfeito com a sua curiosidade?
Best regards from
Drum Major

[Geronimo2006]

What an amazing job, from you, Geronomio, and Sr. Rodrigues! Absolutely amazing!

I've got to ask you - what convinced you to give your soul to help in a project about Portugal in the 18th century? Also, where are you from?

Because what you've been doing here so far no Portuguese has ever had the balls and the passion to do that, with a few exceptions of course.

+Rep!

Thank you Duberdicus. I am actually from Ireland and I am annoyed at the lack of units for small factions in the game so I decided to make units for them. I have also made Savoy units and I will release them in due course. I want to make some Danish units too. Sr Rodrigues, thank you for sending me these images today:Marquis of Alorna in uniform of commander of Evora Cavalry Regiment (1793):

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Quinta Vale de Santarém in Nabais, known as Quinta do Alorna, where the Marquis lived for many years:

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Information from Sr. Rodrigues' email:

A biografia do 3.º Marquês de Alorna é triste e muito dramática, perdeu os pais, os filhos ainda muito novos e depois a mulher. Morreu no regresso das Campanhas da Rússia, onde se encontrava a comandar a Legião Portuguesa ao serviço de Napoleão. Foi comandante do Regimento de Cavalaria de Évora, antes de partir, como oficial do Estado-Maior para as Campanhas do Rosilhão e da Catalunha.

Em 1807 foi encarregue por Junot da dissolução do Exército Português e da criação de uma Legião que iria partir para França e colocar-se ao serviço de Napoleáo (e assim foi). Na 3.ª Invasão de Portugal por Massena; Alorna veio incorporado no exército francês, regressando no fim da invasão para França e para junto da Legião onde partiu com ela para várias campanhas ao serviço de França, entre outras, a da Rússia, onde esteve com as tropas portuguesas em Moscovo tendo assistido ao incêndio e sofreu a passagem do Berezina e tudo o mais vindo a falecer vitima de doença após passar a fronteira da Rússia.

Quando os seus avós, os Marqueses de Távora, subiram ao cadafalso de Belém, Pedro de Almeida Portugal era ainda menino. Durante dezoito longos anos ficou longe da família: o pai foi encarcerado no Forte da Junqueira e a mãe e irmãs fechadas no lúgubre Convento de Chelas.

Curiosamente, Pedro não se encontrava só! Na sombra, um homem poderoso velava pela educação daquele órfão do "despotismo iluminado": Sebastiáo José de Carvalho e Mello, futuro marquês de Pombal e carrasco dos seus avós e perseguidor da sua família, acabou por o proteger!

Não me vou alongar mais sobre a infeliz vida do Marquês.

Sei que vão ter algumas surpresas sobre o que lhes vou mostrar, nomeadamente o uniforme da Legião, o Decreto original da sua criação (que faz parte da minha colecção particular), as barretinas (capacetes) que são extremamente curiosos. A farda especial ou particular da Legião que o Marquês e os seus dois pequenos filhos utilizavam e a curiosíssima e extraordinária farda do Marquês, quando foi comandante do Regimento de Cavalaria de Évora em 1793.

Para manter um certo "suspense" vou enviando todos estes elementos aos poucos.

Imagem 0002 - Quinta de Vale de Nabais em Almeirim, conhecida pela Quinta do Alorna, onde o Marquês viveu muitos anos.

Imagem 0003 - O Marques de Alorna com o uniforme de Comandante do Regimento de Cavalaria de Évora em c.1793. Observem o capacete, a crina e a couraça, ao fundo a segurar o cavalo vê-se um soldado. Nada deste equipamento vem escrito em nenhum documento.

Espero que tenham gostado e amanhã, possivelmente, começaremos a tratar da Legião das Tropas Ligeiras.

A biography of the three. Marquess of Alorna is sad and very tragic, lost parents, children still very young and then his wife. He died on his return from campaigns in Russia, where he was commanding the Portuguese Legion in the service of Napoleon. He was commander of the Cavalry Regiment of Évora, before leaving, as an officer of the General Staff for Campaigns Rosilhão and Catalonia.

In 1807 he was instructed by Junot the dissolution of the Portuguese army and the creation of a Legion that he would leave for France and put to the service of Napoleon (and so was). At 3. Nd invasion of Portugal by Massena; Alorna came incorporated into the French army, returning at the end of the invasion to France and with the Legion he left with her for several years in the service of France, among others, Russia, where he was with the Portuguese troops in Moscow and attended the fire and suffered the passage of the Berezina and everything else been the victim died of disease after crossing the border from Russia.

When his grandparents, the Marquis of Tavora, climbed the scaffold of Belem, Pedro de Almeida Portugal was still a boy. For eighteen long years stayed away from his family: his father was imprisoned at Fort Junqueira and his mother and sisters locked in the gloomy convent Chelas.

Interestingly, Peter was not alone! In the shadow, a mighty man that watched over the education of orphans "enlightened despotism": Sebastian Jose de Carvalho e Mello, the future Marquis of Pombal and executioner of their grandparents and persecutor of his family, eventually to protect you!

I will not dwell more on the unhappy life of the Marquis.

I know I will have some surprises about what I show them, including the uniform of the legion, the original Decree of His creation (which is part of my particular collection), the shakos (helmets) which are quite curious. The uniform of the Legion special or particular that the Marquis and his two small children and used very curious and striking livery of the Marquis, when he was commander of the Cavalry Regiment of Évora in 1793.

To maintain a certain "suspense" I sent all these factors gradually.

Image 0002 - Quinta Vale de Santarém in Nabais, known for Quintamdp Alorna where the Marquis lived for many years.

Image 0003 - The Marquis de Alorna with the uniform of Commander of the Cavalry Regiment of Evora in c.1793. Notice the helmet, armor and horse hair, at the bottom to hold the horse sees a soldier. None of this equipment has been written in any document.

I hope you enjoyed and tomorrow possibly begin to deal with the Legion of Light Troops.

regardes
Manuel A. R. Rodrigues

Note: The campaigns of Roussillon and Catalonia are not forgotten.

I have a question. Was the breastplate only worn by officers or by the entire Legion of Alorna? I noticed that in two other pictures you sent me, the men were not wearing helmets and one of them had a tricorne-hat in his hand. So was the helmet only worn by the officers, or was the tricorne replaced with the helmet for all the men? And if so when did this happen?

[D.Sebastian]

Apparently Geronimo,the breastplate (and the entire uniform in this picture) are from the Evora Cavalry Regiment,at the time when the Marquis of Alorna was it's commander.Jugding from what he has told us,it was a non regulation uniform (Like all the cavalry uniforms with breastplates or helmets).
Oh,BTW,did he say anything about the indian governor guards?

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

I just received shipment from Mr.Rodriguez, regarding the Portuguese army uniforms that he knows about. hopefully, the results will be posted at kronoskaf by next week's end.

I have already done what I assume are valenca and have redone Porto.

[Geronimo2006]

Some info from emails from MMR. The use of armour in the cavalry was not mandatory. The picture I posted of the Marquis of Alorna in armour is in the Evora Cavalry commander uniform (the 1764 armour but the painting dates from 1793). The armour worne by the cavalry regiments, while not mandatory, differed as follows:

O uniformes que o Marquês de Alorna tem é o modelo de 1764 do Regimento de Cavalaria de Évora c.1793. Nada disto tem a ver com a Legião de Alorna e esta nunca utilizou peitos ou armadura como se dizia (breastplates). A casaca de cavalaria que ele veste é do modelo de 1764, talvez já um pouco modificada, pois como se sabe o uniforme militar seguia bastante a moda do traje civil. Seja como for as cores distintivas estão lá: gola e canhões das mangas brancos. O capacete é que é bastante intrigante mas...só se sabe o que se vê nesse quadro, nada existe escrito sobre isso, nem nada estava regulamentado.

A utilização de peitos (breastplates) na cavalaria não era obrigatória,e qualquer um podia utilizar, desde soldado ao comandante. Vou transcrever parte de um manuscrito que se encontra no Arquivo Histórico Militar e é muito interessante. trata-se de " Notas sobre os Reais Regimentos de Cavalaria portugueses, aos quais passou revista Sua Alteza, o Marechal Princípe Christian von Waldeck nas províncias do Alentejo no ano de 1797"

Vou apenas transcrever o que o Príncipe relatou sobre os peitos que aqui lhe chamam "armadura" (breastplate):

Regimento de Cavalaria de Évora: O regimentos possui "armaduras" (breastplates), mas não as usam, talvez por não haver suficientes para todos ou então por não se atreverem a montar com elas. Ainda por cima, as "armaduras" (breastplates) dos soldados rasos são muito velhas e as dos oficiais são de latão.

Regimento de Cavalaria de Moura: As "armaduras" (breastpaltes) estavam pintadas de azul ou de azul-esverdeado.

Regimento de Cavalaria de Olivença: As "armaduras" (breastplates) estão todas pintadas e bonitas.

Regimento de Cavalaria de Elvas : O regimento possui bonitas "armaduras" (breastplates)

E é assim que se vai sabendo alguma coisa, aqui e ali, "step by step" e muitas vezes "por acaso" e por "sorte". è necessário pesquizar durantes muitos anos e não desanimar e continau a procurar, a procurar e a ler resmas e resmas de manuscritos, livros, regulamentos, etc.

Regards
RR

The uniforms that the Marquis de Alorna have is the 1764 model of the Cavalry Regiment of Évora c.1793. None of this has to do with the Legion of Alorna and this never used breasts or armor as they said (breastplates). The cavalry jacket he wears is the model of 1764, perhaps even a little changed, because as we know the military uniform went quite the fashion in civilian dress. Either way the distinctive colors are there: guns collar and white sleeves. The helmet is that is very intriguing ... but only if you know what you see in this picture, there is nothing written about it, and nothing was regulated.

The use of breasts (breastplates) in the cavalry was not mandatory, and anyone could use, from soldier to commander. I will transcribe part of a manuscript that lies in the Archives and Military History is very interesting. it's "Notes on the Portuguese Royal Cavalry Regiments, which mustered His Highness Prince Christian Marshal von Waldeck in the provinces of Alentejo in 1797"

I'll just transcribe what the Prince told them of the breasts that here they call it "armor" (breastplate):

Cavalry Regiment of Evora: The regiments have "armor" (breastplates), but do not use, perhaps because there is enough for all or else not dare to ride with them. Moreover, the "armor" (breastplates) of the privates are very old and the officers are of brass.

Cavalry Regiment de Moura: The "armor" (breastpaltes) were painted blue or turquoise.

Cavalry Regiment Olivença: The "armor" (breastplates) are all painted and beautiful.

Cavalry Regiment of Elvas: The regiment has beautiful "armor" (breastplates)

And that is how you will learn something here and there, step by step "and sometimes" by chance "and" luck. " è needed those searching for many years and not lose heart and continau to seek, to find and read reams and reams of manuscripts, books, regulations, etc..

Also, another email says that the earlier picture of the Alorna Commanders with their families were unique to the commanders.

ATENÇÃO!

O uniforme que o Marquês e os filhos vestem no retrato de família é um fardamento de Cavalaria, mas exclusivo do Comandante e dos sues filhos! Muita atenção a farda de Cavalaria da Legião é diferente.


Agora envio um retrato do Marquês de Alorna com o uniforme de Cavalaria e o respectivo capacete, que é uma pequena maravilha. Só lamento que não tenha chegado nenhum exemplar até aos nossos dias...

Observem bem o uniforme "regulamentar" da Cavalaria da Legião que ele enverga. É muito diferente do retrato de família

A imagem que colocou no forum de um militar de Cavalaria da Legião, além de não ser contemporâneo, deve ter sido feito baseado na farda do "retrato de família" e não nos desenhos oficias que lhes irei mandar. felizmente chegaram os desenhos regulamentares da época para a Infantaria /Artilharia, Cavalaria e Estado-Maior. A preto e branco, as gravuras são "velhinhas" mas vocês logo observarão talvez amanhã.

Até lá, tudo de bom, para si e
para o "people" do forum
regards
Manuel A. Ribeiro Rodrigues

P.S.
Sobre o uniforme da guarda do Vice-Rei da Índia que foi desenhado por mim, este foi feito a partir de uma carta, onde pediam panos e descreviam o fardamento da Guarda. De resto não existe mais nada! Nem referências. Só aquela carta, que encontrei por acaso, quando procurava outras coisas.

WARNING!

The uniform that the Marquis and the children dress in the family portrait is a Cavalry uniform, but unique to Commander and her children! Much attention to uniforms Cavalry Legion is different.


Now sends a portrait of the Marquis of Alorna with even Cavalry and their helmet, which is a small wonder. I only regret that no copy has not arrived until today ...

Observe well the uniform "regulatory" Cavalry of the Legion that he wears. It's very different picture of family

The image you put on a military forum Cavalry Legion, in addition to being contemporary, must have been made based on the uniform of the "family portrait" and not the official drawings they'll send it. fortunately reached the designs of the time regulations for the Infantry / Artillery, Cavalry and Staff. The black and white, the prints are "old ladies" but you soon notice maybe tomorrow.

Until then, all the best for themselves and
for the "people" forum
regards
Manuel A. Ribeiro Rodrigues

P.S.
On the uniform of the guard of the Viceroy of India which was designed by me, this was done from a letter, asking for clothes and described the uniform of the Guard. Moreover there is nothing else! Or references. Only one letter, which I found by chance when looking for other things.

Another picture of the Marquis of Alorna:

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Family of Marquis of Alorna:

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I just received shipment from Mr.Rodriguez, regarding the Portuguese army uniforms that he knows about. hopefully, the results will be posted at kronoskaf by next week's end.

I have already done what I assume are valenca and have redone Porto.

Great news.

[D.Sebastian]

Nice!I'm really excited to see the uniforms of the legion...
About the indian colonial cavalry,does he know If there is any mention to other mounted unit in portuguese India besides the guards of the vice-roy?

[Geronimo2006]

MRR has sent me a few emails today and more pictures. D.Sebastian, I am posting the Portuguese forms as well as the Google Translation so that you or another Portuguese-speaker can give a better English-translation if necessary:

envio mais elementos sobre A Legião de Alorna Cores:

A partir de agora vou utilizar como referência para as cores o cátálogo das tintas da Humbrol.


Farda = azul claro pedrês = azul claro = light blue + pedrês = spotted with black and white like de colour of the "partridge" (bird), mais parecido será: talvez o "mediterranean blue (Humbrol No.48)

Véstia e calção = amarelo , talvez "Insignia Yellow ( No. 154 Humbrol)

Gola, canhões e bandas da casaca = preto

A cor mais utilizada nos nossos uniformes é o azul ferrete, talvez entre "Midnghit Blue" (Humbro No.15) and tht "Blue Angel" (Humbrol No.190)

Translation by Google:

sending more information about The Legion of Alorna
Colors:

From now on I will use as a reference for the colors of the catalog of Humbrol paints.

Farda (uniform/livery) = blue stone = light blue = light blue + stone = spotted with black and white like the color of the "partridge (bird), will be more like: maybe the" Mediterranean blue (Humbrol no.48)

= Yellow waistcoat and shorts, maybe "Insignia Yellow (Humbrol No. 154)

Collar, cuffs, and bands of black tailcoat =

The most frequently used color in our uniform is dark blue, perhaps between "Midnghit Blue" (Humbria No.15) and tht "Blue Angel" (Humbrol No.190)

Some pictures. Alorna Legion Infantry and ArtilleryInfantry and Artillery (engraving of the time and official) :

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Alorna Legion Watercolour by Coronel (Colonel) Artur Ribeiro (1902):

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Decrees setting up the Alorna Legion:

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D.Sebastian, the Cavalry Guards of the Viceroy of India continued to exist. Their (Regimento de Cavalaria da Guarda do Vice-rei da India) uniform in 1791 is below:

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Just to clarify some confusion. The picture of the men in breast-plates and white trousers: MMR just emailed me to say that is not the Alorna Legion - it is the Almeida Cavalry Regiment in 1798. Update: it turns out that the Almeida Cavalry Regiment wore white trousers in Summer and Yellow in Winter. But from 1806 he had to wear Dark or navy-blue trousers in Winter and White in Summer.

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BTW KLA, I think this would look good on a mitre to represent the grenade-symbol:

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[D.Sebastian]

Did the government issue the same uniform to both the infantry and artillery?And besides the closed lapels,what was the difference between the cavalry and infantry uniforms?
BTW, thank you for the picture of the vice-roy guards in 1791.Do you know if there was any other cavalry unit in india?

[Geronimo2006]

Did the government issue the same uniform to both the infantry and artillery?And besides the closed lapels,what was the difference between the cavalry and infantry uniforms?
BTW, thank you for the picture of the vice-roy guards in 1791.Do you know if there was any other cavalry unit in india?

I have sent the first question to drum_major. Regarding cavalry, I can't find any for the 18th century. There are 3 Goa-specific infantry regiments in the late 18th century. The 1st Infantry Regiment is already in my Portuguese unit pack. The 2nd and 3rd Infantry Regiments of Goa, and the Goa Artillery Regiment (all in 1783) are in the pictures below (thanks to Manuel Ribeiro Rodrigues for all the pictures):1st Infantry Regiment of Goa (1783)

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2nd Infantry Regiment of Goa (1783):

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3rd Infantry Regiment of Goa (1783):

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Artillery Regiment of Goa (1783):

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I also found this picture of an officer in a cavalry squadron in Angola in 1806-8:

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[D.Sebastian]

I think it would be safe to conclude that there were no regular cavalry units in India besides the governor's guards.My osprey book about the portuguese army of the napoleonic wars mentions some european and native cavalry volunteers,but no regular formation.Do you know of any cavalry in the XIX century India?

[Geronimo2006]

I think it would be safe to conclude that there were no regular cavalry units in India besides the governor's guards.My osprey book about the portuguese army of the napoleonic wars mentions some european and native cavalry volunteers,but no regular formation.Do you know of any cavalry in the XIX century India?

I'll get back to you on that.

Some more pictures MRR sent me today. In the picture beloware members of the Legião de Alorna:

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MRR also says that in 1808 (when the uniforms were changed), the Alorna Legion uniform was the same as the one below, except they wore shakos:

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He also says that in the Peninsular War, the basis of the uniforms was the 1808 plan, so the pictures of units in the book from 1815-34 "cannot be considered". He also sent be two cover-book pictures of Portuguese cavalry in the Peninsular War. Picture on the Left is cavalry. Picture on the Right is Colonel of infantry, summer uniform, mounted service 1810-1815:

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[drum major]

Olá!

Attention!

Picture 1: Is members of the Legião de Alorna

Pic. 2 : Uniforms changed in 19 May of 1806 but the really aplication is in 1808 Barretina = only shako (not bearskin-hats)

Pic. 3 : Cover of the left = cavalry
Cover of the right: Colonel of infantry, summer uniform, mounted service 1810-1815
Pioneer, winter uniform, 1806 - 1810 (see the diffrent shako.

Best regards to hall
Drum Major
M.A.R.R:

[D.Sebastian]

Very good pictures! But to which arm do these members belong?
Also,I still dont get what was the difference between the uniforms of the different arms of the legion...Was there any?

[Geronimo2006]

I have lots of new images from MRR below. Some were apparently by Carlos Ribeiro The regiment in grey with yellow cuffs is unknown. It also raises questions about exactly how early the grenadier-mitre was replaced with a bearskin. Drawings of 1725 uniform also below (by MRR).

Uniforms 1725:

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Many tile pictures from 18th century (scroll left to right to see them all they are very large):

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Next two pictures of grenadiers wearing bearskin hats. Surprisingly, one of them (by Carlos Ribeiro - not MRR) is dated 1721 - long before I assumed the mitre was replaced by the bearskin (I assumed it was 1740):

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MRR also says he thinks he has something on the Academia Real de Fortificação e Desenho.

[D.Sebastian]

Good images, specially the grenadiers.But I got curious,is there any image of a grenadier after the lippe reforms?Because if I'm not mistaken,all the bearskin grenadiers pictures we have seen come from before 1762.Is there anything on the portuguese grenadiers after this date?
Also,did Mr.Rodrigues say anything about the differences in the alorna legion uniforms?
It's good to be back (:

[Geronimo2006]

D.Sebastian - some very surprising info from MRR. He says that after the abolition of the bearskin hat for Grenadiers in 1764, the Portuguese Grenadiers wore tricornes until the 1806 regulations. That is very surprising. Regarding pictures, the next pictures of Grenadiers in the 300 Anos book are from the 1800s. I asked MRR and he says that the Grenadier bearskin was totally abolished in 1764, but that they started using them again in 1834 and that the uniforms of grenadiers in a regiment were the same as the other infantry in the regiment, except that in thr 1806 uniform plan, symviks/distinctions were introduced:

Olá!

A partir de 1764 as companhias de granadeiros eram sempre a 1.ª companhia, que era a do Comandante, onde os seus elementos eram escolhidos entre os mais robustos, preparados, arrojados, etc., mas os seus uniformes em nada se distinguiam dos restantes membros do Regimento ou Batalhão. A única diferença era além de tambores terem pifaros. Só com o Plano de Uniformes de 19 de Maio de 1806 (o da Guerra Peninsular) é que as companhias de granadeiros passaram a ter um distintivo, que eram as franjas (woollen fringes) das dragonas (epaulettes) serem de cor azul-ferrete (cor da farda) misturadas com franjas (fringes) da cor do foro da farda. Mais nada.

Nota: as barretinas de pele de urso foram totalmente abolidas em 1764. E só se passaram a utilizar novamente em 1834 e apenas os Porta-machados e os Tambores Móres.

regards
M.A.R.R.

Hello!

After 1764 the companies of grenadiers were always the first company, which was the Commander, where its elements were chosen among the strongest, prepared, bold, etc.. But nothing in their uniforms were distinguished from other Members of the Regiment or Battalion. The only difference was addition of drums have fife. Only with the Uniform Plan of May 19, 1806 (the Peninsular War) is that companies of infantry have been given symbols, which were the fringes (woolen fringes) of epaulettes (epaulettes) are of deep blue (Humbrol Insignia blue No 189 or Midnight blue No15 uniform color) mixed with fringes (fringes) of the turnbacks. Nothing else.

Note: the bearskin shako were totally abolished in 1764. And only started to use again in 1834 and only the pioneers and drum-majors.

regards
M.A.R.R.

MRR sent me some info on the Academia Real de Artilharia, Fortificação e Desenho with pics:First location: 1790 Army Arsenal (now the Military Museum) in Santa Apolonia, photos A and B

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moved in 1797 to the Palace of Calhariz in Calhariz, photo C

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has to change in: c.1800 to c. 1851, for the Palace of the Royal College of Nobles, photos D and E (no longer exists) and left the ring a lot, a small building with one door in the current Rua da Escola Politécnica.

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Thank you very much Sr.Rodrigues.

I've deleted the last photograph which I had mistakenly thought was also the Calhariz Palace. MRR has emailed me to say the palace he is talking about was in Lisbon.

[drum major]

Hello!

1 - Porta-machado = Pioneer
2 - Tambor mor = drum major
3 - "uniform colour of forum" (...?) = turnbacks
4 - distintivo - is not "badge" . Is distinctive or symbol
5 - azul ferrete = deep blue = Humbrol Insignia blue No 189 or Midnight blue No15

Best regrads for all
Drum Major
M.A.R.R.

[Geronimo2006]

Drum_major I have edited the above given what you said.

Google Translate obviously needs some work improving their translations.

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

Hello!

1 - Porta-machado = Pioneer
2 - Tambor mor = drum major
3 - "uniform colour of forum" (...?) = turnbacks
4 - distintivo - is not "badge" . Is distinctive or symbol
5 - azul ferrete = deep blue = Humbrol Insignia blue No 189 or Midnight blue No15

Best regrads for all
Drum Major
M.A.R.R.

ok, I guess that means more revisions; for the rest of ye, I have had one plate put on the website; I hope its good (