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Thread: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

  1. #1

    Default Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

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    Last edited by Didz; November 29, 2009 at 08:46 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

    What are the common ethnic groups you see usually ?

    I am taking a guess in the dark there, but i think that's more about the political boundaries than a real ethnical thing.

    So, the "German" troops would be recruited from the lands directly under Habsburg rule, what would be after the 1867 compromise "Austria" proper.
    The "hungarian" troops from the lands falling under the hungarian crown (who is itself in a union with croatia) and the others ethnic groups falling under the "military confines" area where they benefit from a special statut because they must levy troops to protect the border with the ottoman empire.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

    On the other hand, there are also "italian" troops i guess...
    So i don't know what to think about the czechs case.

    Are there any slovak units ? Or are they considered "hungarian" ?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

    Units classified as 'German' are because they came from the 'German' part of the empire. Remember that the Austrian and later Austro-Hungarian Empire was made up of two sections, the 'German' half anf the 'Hungarian' half.

    The 'Hungarian' half was made up of the old regions of the Kingdom of Hungary before the Ottoman conquest. It included Hungary, Slovakia, Transylvania, Banat (basically the boarderlands or the Vojvodina today), Slavonia, and Croatia. The population was little more than half Hungarian with many Romanians, Slovaks(who don't seem to be represented as a unique group yet), Serbs, Croats, and quite a number of Germans actually. All regular troops recruited from these areas are called 'Hungarian.'

    The 'German' half consitsted of the lands of the old Duchy of Austria and Kingdom of Bohemia (or all territories in the old Holy Roman Empire) plus many further gains. It included the Tyrol, Upper and Lower Austria, Carinthia, Carinola, Istria, Dalmatia, Bohemia, Moravia, Galicia, Tarnapol, and a few other minor territories. The polulation here was only about half German with many Czechs, Italians, Slovenes(like Slovaks, they don't seem to be differentiated as of yet), Croats, Poles, and Ruthenians(Ruthenes or Ukrainians). Virtually all regular soldiers recruited from these territories are considered 'German.' Because of the doubtfull loyalty and unique skills of the Poles and Ruthenians, they were often distinguished from other 'German' units. It did not matter how good a particular group of people were as soldiers to be considered 'German,' only where they were from, 'Austria' of 'Hungary,' though 'German' soldiers were generally thought more highly of than 'Hungarian.'

    Official Byzantine Historian for Tzardoms:Total War

  7. #7

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

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    Last edited by Didz; November 29, 2009 at 08:47 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

    It is located in your thread about the croatian volunteers

  9. #9

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

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    Last edited by Didz; November 29, 2009 at 08:47 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    Then this regiment was classified as 'German', and was uniformed and organised as a German regiment.

    It's recruiting area is described as 'Morovia' and its headquarters was in Prossinitz. There is no mention of it being composed of mostly Czech's, but thats not really surprising given that the Austrian's didn't use that term. I am curious how CA have determined that most of the soliders were Czech though. I assume they have just looked at the recruiting area, noted that it falls within the area of the modern Czech Republic and declared the soldiers Czech.

    Which is fair enough, and also means that one could assume that any regiment recruited in Moravia would also be formed mostly of Czech's, regardless of what classification the Austrian's gave it. So, looking down the list that includes Regiment Nr's 7, 8 (my old wargame regiment), 12, 15, 22, 29, 40, 56 and 57, all of which are classified as German.

    So, on the face of it, it seems the Austrian's considered the Moravian's (Czech's) to be 'as good as German's' from an ethnic point of view and did not give them a seperate classification. Which is why they don't feature in most books on the Austrian Army, even though EP claims they were about the third largest ethnic group in the Austrian Empire.
    You are completely misreading the terms "German" and "Hungarian" when applied to the Kaiserlich-konigliche Armee
    There are German organised and Hungarian organised regiments with differing uniforms and numerical strengths. The terms simply refer to whether a unit is "Imperial/German" or "Royal/Hungarian", depending upon which half of the Empire it is raised in. Why would the soldiers be Czech? Because Bohemia and Moravia are Czech lands. Because the Austrian army was conscripted from the local populace.
    Any regiment (and there are many) listed as "Bohemian" or "Moravian" would be mostly Czech. There would be other nationalities too, chiefly Germans, especially among the officers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post

    The only noticeable omission was Czech, which was the point of issue on the other thread, and left the question of what the hell happened to all the Czech's. Hence the point of this thread as it seems that CA have found some, and that provides at least a clue as to which ethnic group the Austrian's placed them in, even though they never actually called them Czech. Which makes me wonder how CA have managed to decide that Regiments Nr1 and Nr47 were Czech's.
    Because they were from Bohemia and Moravia....

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    There are regiments such as Infantry Regiment Nr53 'Johann Jellacic', which show their recruitment area as Croatia & Slovenia, and as far as I can see they are included in the general classification of 'Hungarian' in terms of uniform and organisation. Steve Millers Napoleonic Series site doesn't actually list its Headquarters, so I'm not sure whether it would have been recruiting within the boundaries of the modern Czech republic or not..
    And why the hell would a regiment from Croatia and Slovenia ( I believe it is actually Croatia and Slavonia btw) be recruiting in the Czech reublic?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Bulgar_Slayer View Post
    Units classified as 'German' are because they came from the 'German' part of the empire. Remember that the Austrian and later Austro-Hungarian Empire was made up of two sections, the 'German' half anf the 'Hungarian' half.

    The 'Hungarian' half was made up of the old regions of the Kingdom of Hungary before the Ottoman conquest. It included Hungary, Slovakia, Transylvania, Banat (basically the boarderlands or the Vojvodina today), Slavonia, and Croatia. The population was little more than half Hungarian with many Romanians, Slovaks(who don't seem to be represented as a unique group yet), Serbs, Croats, and quite a number of Germans actually. All regular troops recruited from these areas are called 'Hungarian.'

    The 'German' half consitsted of the lands of the old Duchy of Austria and Kingdom of Bohemia (or all territories in the old Holy Roman Empire) plus many further gains. It included the Tyrol, Upper and Lower Austria, Carinthia, Carinola, Istria, Dalmatia, Bohemia, Moravia, Galicia, Tarnapol, and a few other minor territories. The polulation here was only about half German with many Czechs, Italians, Slovenes(like Slovaks, they don't seem to be differentiated as of yet), Croats, Poles, and Ruthenians(Ruthenes or Ukrainians). Virtually all regular soldiers recruited from these territories are considered 'German.' Because of the doubtfull loyalty and unique skills of the Poles and Ruthenians, they were often distinguished from other 'German' units. It did not matter how good a particular group of people were as soldiers to be considered 'German,' only where they were from, 'Austria' of 'Hungary,' though 'German' soldiers were generally thought more highly of than 'Hungarian.'
    Excellent post +Rep

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    As you can see this map clearly identifies a high concentration of Czech's in the provinces of Bohemia and Moravia, in the northern area of Austria and thus within the area the Austrian classified as 'German' for military purposes. So, it makes sense therefore, that any regiments whose recruitment area's were in Bohemia or Moravia would contain a very high volume of Czech soldiers, even though the Austrian's themselves never recognised that ethinc group specifically by name.

    In fact, if the historians are to be beleived then all the troops raised in these provinces were merely lumped into the general classification of 'German' and considered reliable by the Austrian bureaucracy. Its only the area's like Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia and to a lesser extent Hungary itself where Petre and Seaton state that the Austrian's expressed concerns and record problems.
    Again that is not what "German" and "Hungarian" mean. Funny how there's a high concentration of Czechs in those areas

  11. #11

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

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    Last edited by Didz; November 29, 2009 at 08:47 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

    Didz, you gave missleading informations sometime and that's why I support emperorpenguin and The_Bulgar_Slayer.

    I think that you can beliving now that Czechs were third nation in Austrian Empire.

    However Austrians never mention Czech's, becuase the Austrian's considered them to be either Bohemian, Moravian or German, that doesn't mean Czechs weren't there.

    If you look on Austrian, Hungarian and Czechs history then you can see that Austrain try Germanised Czechs and few other nations which lived in Habsburg Empire. Maybe this is why they never mention Czechs and Hungarian did not mention Slovaks and few others.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

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    Last edited by Didz; November 29, 2009 at 08:47 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    The point is that the Austrian's never mention Czech's, becuase the Austrian's considered them to be either Bohemian, Moravian or German. Hence, you don't get any mention of them, which is why they don't feature in any of the historical analysis provided in the assessments of the Austro-Hungarian Army.

    That doesn't mean they weren't there, it just explains why they don't appear in the lists as a seperate ethnic group, and consequently why its impossible to come up with a seperate assessment of their value. What the racial distribution map confirms is that (in 1911 at least) the Czech population was entirely contained within the area's of Bohemia and Moravia, so at least we can assume that, as you say, regiments recruited in those area's would be composed mostly of Czech's even though they were never referred to as such.
    They never mention them as Czechs in the same way you say "German" and not "Deutsch". The contemporary term was Bohemian.
    The initial argument, which you have always failed to acknowledge, was another of your incorrect statements. You claimed
    The remants of the Austrian Empire now consisted of four main ethnic and cultural groups. Germans, Hungarians, Poles and Croats
    I merely pointed out this was wrong and was in fact German, Hungarian, Czech then Poles. You had missed out an entire nationality.

    I cannot believe you actually had to look up an old map to verify that the Czechs lived in Bohemia and Moravia.......


    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    b) EmperorPenguin then pointed out that I had missed out the Czech's, who he claimed represented a third of the Austrian population.
    Again I never said they constituted ONE THIRD. You really do not read and take into account what others are trying to tell you

    d) EmperorPenquin then seemed to suggest that as the Austrian's hadn't mentioned the Czech's then the information they recorded must by definition be wrong. Which I thought unlikely as the population totals seemed correct, so it seemed more likely that the Czech's were in there but just not seperately identified.
    No, I said your statement was wrong. As Hicks said to Hudson "You're READING it wrong"

    e) Lord Mov then chipped in and said that the Czechs were classified as 'German' by the Austrian's because they spoke German. But didn't really provided any evidence to support this. So, EmperorPenquin simply ignored Lord Mov and continued to argue that the Austrian's information quoted by Seaton and Petre was wrong.
    Some Czechs spoke German, their language was still Czech, the first language of administration in Austrian ruled Bohemia and Moravia.

    You mean kind of how like you completely failed to acknowledge your boo-boo about Croatian troops recruited in the Czech lands........


    f) The issue then became basically 'What happended to all the Czechs?', and the amazing coincidence was that suddenly CA announced two special Austrian Regiments 'Infantry Regiment Nr1' and 'Infantry Regiment Nr47' which they somehow decided were composed mostly of Czechs.
    The issue to you only my friend. I knew where they were all along.

    g) So, on the assumption that CA were right. I then investigated where these regiments were recruited, and quickly discovered that both were 'German', and that one had been recruited in 'Moravia' and the other in 'Bohemia'. Logic, therefore, suggested that Morava and Bohemia must have a large Czech population.
    Way to go Sherlock! Never mind you'd already been told this......


    The logical conclusion is that the ethnic groups identified by the Austrian's as Bohemian or Moravian's almost certinly include the Czech's, and as both these provinces rest entirely with the ethnic area referred to by them as 'German', then in the absence of any provincial breakdown the Czech population is included in the general ethnic classification of 'German' and any data labelled 'German' inlcudes the Czech's.
    This proves you never read what the rest of us say. The Austrian military terms "German" and "Hungarian" are not ethnic labels. You know it is actually painful trying to explain this to you!

    Actually, they do seem to mention Slovaks though not consistently, and of course 'Hungarian' is used to cover a multitude of ethnic groups from the general area incuding several shown on the 1911 map, but also a number that don't even feature on that.
    Slovaks were not allowed use of their language in the way the Czechs were. Hungary ruled the eastern half of the empire much less benignly than the Austrians ruled the west. You will find Bohemian and Moravian but no Slovak regiments, they are listed simply as Hungarians. Slovakia was simply "Upper Hungary", the Felvidek

  15. #15

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

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    Last edited by Didz; November 29, 2009 at 08:48 AM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

    Slavonia is in modern croatia... It's the northern part afaik (the southern one being dalmatia). So there is absolutely no links between slovaks and slavonia.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

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    Last edited by Didz; November 29, 2009 at 08:48 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    Bohemia and Moravia are in the overall area designated as German, so its a matter of granularity. It depends on how much detail the Austrian's chose to include in their information or data.
    The German administered half of the empire is NOT the same as it being a "German" racial half of empire. How many times need you be told?

    There was no inaccuracy, in my initial statement. I said the Austria's provide no information on the Czech's and as far as I can see they don't. They are lumped in with the 'Germans', or at best into the general population of Bohemia and Moravia.
    Give me a full quote and source to prove this.

    I supect that what you are quoting are what you consider to be the top four ethnic groups in terms of head-count, but that isn't the basis on which the Austrians divide their population, even assuming that you are correct.
    Yes it is head count. Guess how they get those. Census figures. So how on earth can you claim the Austrians don't count Bohemians?

    What I was quoting were the figures quoted by Seaton and Petre from the actual information they obtained from Autrian records, which apparently doesn't match your personal selection.
    Quote and source please.

    Of course I did, how else would you verify that the ethnic population had not migrated over time, or that it had not been spread over a wider area 200 years ago. Even as it stands the research that produced that map is 100 years after the period we are discussing so, it may not be 100% correct.
    Well this is just an area I have more cetainty over than you. Being married to one and having spent time there (and knowing some of their history) I know that they have lived there continuosly since the dark ages. In fact I cannot think of any major european people who did not live in the area they currently reside in today, two hundred years ago. Once you factor in the ethnic cleansing of World War 2.


    Like I've said repeatedly, don't try and explain this to me, explain it to the Austrian's. Presumably they are the ones producing the figures that show the ethnic breakdown of their Empire. Seaton and Petre are merely reading those figures and using them as a basis for their arguements. Its pointless coming along two hundred years after the data was collected and inserting a new category into the mix when the figures weren't collected on that basis.
    Quote and source.

    Well there you go then, so now your claiming the Austrian's ignored the Slovaks as an ethnic group, which is exactly the point I've been trying to make about the Czechs. Having said that, I have seen figures related to Slovak's, whereas I've never seen any related to Czechs. Petre for example quotes that 5,000 Slavonic troops were recruited by the Reserves, which suggests he must have found some figures that showed the Slovaks as a distinct group.
    Now once again you show your ignorance of the subject and a failure to bother reading my post. I said the HUNGARIANS ruled the Slovaks, not the Austrians. The Magyars quite ruthlessly attempted to eradicate Slovak identity in a way which Austria did not do to the Czechs.
    Then you claim that "SLAVONIC" = "SLOVAK". You are making a fool of yourself. Slavonic covers all Slavs from Russia to Bulgaria to Poland. Then you have the Croat-Serb area of "Slavonia". This is the SECOND time you have confused the two but you NEVER admit to making mistakes.

    Anyway, the important thing is that we can now be reasonably safe in assuming that where the Austrian's refer to Bohemian, Moravian or German troops, those statements include the Czech's to varying degree's. At least the high concentration and continuity of population of the Czech's makes it easy to assume their presence in the regiments riased in their area's. Other ethnic groups are harder to pin-down because they are so dispersed and inter-mixed. So, for example Hungarian Regiments must have contained a number of Germans as well as Magyars and other ethnic races, but without further data it would be impossible to determine the exact ethnic composition of a Hungarian Regiment
    .

    This I would agree with.

    But based on the 1911 map, its reasonaly safe to assume that, where Seaton says 'The Bohemian and Moravian elements tended to be politically unreliable and more prone to desertion, particularly since the Austrian was often viewed as a foreign ruler and oppressor.', we can be reasonably certain that most of these men would be Czech. Likewise, where Petre says 'There was in the German provinces a general willingness to incur the sacrifices required by national service.' This statement would include the Czechs, and later where he says 'Eleven Bohemian Battalions could not only be got to march when regular troops were added to them.' We can assume that most of the men in those battalions would have been Czech's
    This too

  19. #19

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    Well in that case they have been ignored (at least in the sources quoted by Seaton and Petre), although I think they appear on the 1911 map, so again it ought to be possible to assume unit composition by recruitment area.
    I already told you there are only Hungarian listed regiments. You will not find Slovak regiments. They were labelled as Hungarian much like Welsh were often called English hundreds of years ago.

    Unless you find a particular regiment recruited in say Besztercebanya then you'll not know.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Czech troops in Austrian service: An amazing coincidence.

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