What is Palestine? {Saxon wårolord vs Яome} commentary thread

[Каие]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=311733

[roy34543]

I think my dream debate would have been mansa musa and saxon warlord, but this should be interesting.

[Aziel]

I think my dream debate would have been mansa musa and saxon warlord, but this should be interesting.

Now that would be something I would've payed for (Bad grammer FTW! And spelling as well, I think..)

[Vince Noir]

SW, the UN has, on hundreds of occasions, decreed that Israel are in violation of international laws and in breach of an immeasurable amount human rights violations. It has been decreed that Palestine is a state under illegal occupation! How can this possibly be debated!

If it must be so then your are going to have your work cut out for you. For once, try being objective here and you need to recognise international law and follow logic, something alien to what you post in the D&D. Keep it short and simple and please don't try and derail this with your randomness. And if your going to be using your warped system of subjectivity then remember, as I stated earlier, more than 100 states recognize the State of Palestine, and 20 more grant some form of diplomatic status to a Palestinian delegation, falling short of full diplomatic recognition. So who is say who is more valid? In fact, if you were to measure this by population the sheer numbers of people that coinicde these countries, they would swamp the regressive politically inept masses of Israel and the US, and partially Britain. However there is widespread public condemnation in the latter despite our governmental policies. Similar to the US, there is a profound link between Israel and political institutions, well - a monetary one to be frank. An article today by the Guardian has exposed the Jewish lobby to be bankrolling the Tories, with 50% of the shadow cabinet being long term members of Conservative Friends for Israel (CFI). In all honesty, I can't wait until this generation of politicians die in Britain. They are all as about trustworthy as registered sex offender on holiday in Thailand and have the morality of Ronald McDonald on acid.

By the way here is a very useful map:


This diagram is taken from the European Journal of Law.

And here are just some of the countries in which fully recognize Palestine as an independent state, obviously currently under illegal occupation and thus hindered from conducting and continuing statehood:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

* Algeria[25]
* Angola[26]
* Benin[25]
* Botswana[26]
* Burkina Faso[25]
* Burundi[26]
* Cameroon[25]
* Cape Verde[26]
* Central African Republic[26]
* Chad[25]
* Comoros[25]
* Democratic Republic of the Congo[26][27]
* Djibouti[25]
* Equatorial Guinea[26]
* Ethiopia[25]
* Gabon[25]
* Gambia[25]
* Ghana[25]
* Guinea[25]
* Guinea-Bissau[25]
* Kenya[26]
* Libya[25]
* Madagascar[26]
* Mali[25]
* Mauritania[25]
* Mauritius[26]
* Morocco[25]
* Mozambique[25]
* Namibia[26]
* Niger[25]
* Nigeria[25]
* Republic of the Congo[26]
* Rwanda[26]
* São Tomé and Príncipe[26]
* Senegal[25]
* Sierra Leone[25]
* Seychelles[26]
* Somalia[25]
* South Africa
* Sudan[25]
* Swaziland[28]
* Tanzania[26]
* Togo[25]
* Tunisia[25]
* Uganda[25]
* Zambia[26]
* Zimbabwe[26]

Americas

* Argentina[29]
* Costa Rica[30]
* Cuba[26]
* Nicaragua[26]
* Peru
* Venezuela[31]


Asia

* Afghanistan[25]
* Albania[26]
* Bangladesh[25]
* Bhutan[26]
* Brunei[25]
* China[26]
* Democratic People's Republic of Korea[28]
* India[26]
* Indonesia[25]
* Laos[26]
* Malaysia[25]
* Maldives[25]
* Mongolia[26]
* Nepal[26]
* Pakistan[25]
* Philippines[32]
* Sri Lanka[28]
* Tajikistan
* Turkmenistan[25]
* Uzbekistan[33]
* Vietnam[34][26]

Europe

* Albania[25]
* Austria[26]
* Azerbaijan[25]
* Belarus[35]
* Bosnia and Herzegovina
* Bulgaria
* Czech Republic[36]
* Hungary[26]
* Malta[26]
* Montenegro[37]
* Norway[28]
* Poland[25]
* Romania[26]
* Russia[25]
* Serbia[25]
* Slovakia[38]
* Sweden[28]
* Turkey[25]
* Ukraine[39]
* Vatican City[28]

Middle East

* Cyprus[40][26]
* Bahrain[25]
* Egypt[25]
* Iran[25]
* Iraq[25]
* Jordan[25]
* Kuwait[25]
* Lebanon[25]
* Oman[25]
* Qatar[25]
* Saudi Arabia[25]
* Syria[25]
* Turkey[25]
* United Arab Emirates[25]
* Yemen[25]

Oceania

* Vanuatu[28]

In closing SW, I think you watch this video of the Britsh Member of Parliament and Orthodox Jew, Sir Gerald Kauffmen, speaking in the house of commons. It's only short but he's to the point. Watch it, you'll like it.

[Saxon wårolord]

SW, the UN has, on hundreds of occasions, decreed that Israel are in violation of international laws and in breach of an immeasurable amount human rights violations. It has been decreed that Palestine is a state under illegal occupation! How can this possibly be debated!

If it must be so then your are going to have your work cut out for you. For once, try being objective here and you need to recognise international law and follow logic, something alien to what you post in the D&D. Keep it short and simple and please don't try and derail this with your randomness. And if your going to be using your warped system of subjectivity then remember, as I stated earlier, more than 100 states recognize the State of Palestine, and 20 more grant some form of diplomatic status to a Palestinian delegation, falling short of full diplomatic recognition. So who is say who is more valid? In fact, if you were to measure this by population the sheer numbers of people that coinicde these countries swamp the regressive politically inept masses of Israel and the US, a partially Britain. However there widespread public condemnation in the latter despite out governmental policies. Similar to the US, there is profound link between Israel and political institutions, well - a monetary one to be frank. An article today by the Guardian has exposed the Jewish lobby to be bankrolling the Tories, with 50% of the shadow cabinet being long term members of Conservative Friends for Israel (CFI). In all honesty, I can't wait until this generation of politicians die in Britain. They are all as about trustworthy as registered sex offender on holiday in Thailand and have the morality of Ronald McDonald on acid.

By the way here is a very useful map:


This diagram is taken from the European Journal of Law.

And here are just some of the countries in which fully recognize Palestine as an independent state, obviously currently under illegal occupation and thus hindered from conducting and continuing statehood:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

* Algeria[25]
* Angola[26]
* Benin[25]
* Botswana[26]
* Burkina Faso[25]
* Burundi[26]
* Cameroon[25]
* Cape Verde[26]
* Central African Republic[26]
* Chad[25]
* Comoros[25]
* Democratic Republic of the Congo[26][27]
* Djibouti[25]
* Equatorial Guinea[26]
* Ethiopia[25]
* Gabon[25]
* Gambia[25]
* Ghana[25]
* Guinea[25]
* Guinea-Bissau[25]
* Kenya[26]
* Libya[25]
* Madagascar[26]
* Mali[25]
* Mauritania[25]
* Mauritius[26]
* Morocco[25]
* Mozambique[25]
* Namibia[26]
* Niger[25]
* Nigeria[25]
* Republic of the Congo[26]
* Rwanda[26]
* São Tomé and Príncipe[26]
* Senegal[25]
* Sierra Leone[25]
* Seychelles[26]
* Somalia[25]
* South Africa
* Sudan[25]
* Swaziland[28]
* Tanzania[26]
* Togo[25]
* Tunisia[25]
* Uganda[25]
* Zambia[26]
* Zimbabwe[26]

Americas

* Argentina[29]
* Costa Rica[30]
* Cuba[26]
* Nicaragua[26]
* Peru
* Venezuela[31]


Asia

* Afghanistan[25]
* Albania[26]
* Bangladesh[25]
* Bhutan[26]
* Brunei[25]
* China[26]
* Democratic People's Republic of Korea[28]
* India[26]
* Indonesia[25]
* Laos[26]
* Malaysia[25]
* Maldives[25]
* Mongolia[26]
* Nepal[26]
* Pakistan[25]
* Philippines[32]
* Sri Lanka[28]
* Tajikistan
* Turkmenistan[25]
* Uzbekistan[33]
* Vietnam[34][26]

Europe

* Albania[25]
* Austria[26]
* Azerbaijan[25]
* Belarus[35]
* Bosnia and Herzegovina
* Bulgaria
* Czech Republic[36]
* Hungary[26]
* Malta[26]
* Montenegro[37]
* Norway[28]
* Poland[25]
* Romania[26]
* Russia[25]
* Serbia[25]
* Slovakia[38]
* Sweden[28]
* Turkey[25]
* Ukraine[39]
* Vatican City[28]

Middle East

* Cyprus[40][26]
* Bahrain[25]
* Egypt[25]
* Iran[25]
* Iraq[25]
* Jordan[25]
* Kuwait[25]
* Lebanon[25]
* Oman[25]
* Qatar[25]
* Saudi Arabia[25]
* Syria[25]
* Turkey[25]
* United Arab Emirates[25]
* Yemen[25]

Oceania

* Vanuatu[28]

In closing SW, I think you watch this video of the Britsh Member of Parliament and Orthodox Jew, Sir Gerald Kauffmen, speaking in the house of commons. It's only short but he's to the point. Watch it, you'll like it.

I already saw the video, Kaufman is a fool.
He thinks that we should speak to Hamas only because it has been elected democratically......even though Hitler was also elected democratically!
He should know better than this: noisy old fool.

[Vince Noir]

I already saw the video, Kaufman is a fool.
He thinks that we should speak to Hamas only because it has been elected democratically......even though Hitler was also elected democratically!
He should know better than this: noisy old fool.

Yes, that Knighted by the Queen, PPE Oxford Graduate, political writer, author, producer and 40 year serving Member of Parliament - what a fool.

Perhaps he looks at and understands the reasons why Hamas were elected.

[Saxon wårolord]

Yes, that Knighted by the Queen, PPE Oxford Graduate, political writer, author, producer and 40 year serving Member of Parliament - what a fool.

Perhaps he looks at and understands the reasons why Hamas were elected.

Reasons such as legalized corruption?
Or perhaps anti-semitism?

Pointless: He's a fool.

[Vince Noir]

Reasons such as legalized corruption?
Or perhaps anti-semitism?

Pointless: He's a fool.

Corruption? Such as?

So, if I were to make the comment that "the Israeli government is an institutional breeding ground for international criminals whilst the IDF is Israel's whore house for criminally indoctrinating a generation of misinformed and paranoid Israeli (albeit mostly Russian) youths into a merciless army of death" - would you consider that anti-Semitic?

[Saxon wårolord]

Corruption? Such as?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1007462.html

So, if I were to make the comment that "the Israeli government is an institutional breeding ground for international criminals whilst the IDF is Israel's whore house for criminally indoctrinating a generation of misinformed and paranoid Israeli (albeit mostly Russian) youths into a merciless army of death" - would you consider that anti-Semitic?

Yes, but Hamas goes even further:

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...hamas_e070.htm

[Vince Noir]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1007462.html

Indeed, a man who came to senses in the face of irrational barbarity. Can you do the same? Corruption is part of the fabric of Israeli political history, not to mention Israel are known for hiding their settlement data.

If you want to discuss how Israel was founded on corruption and exploitation then look no further than the US Library of Congress - Israeli Arabs, Arab Land, and Arab Refugees:

The human rights abuses and illegal occupations started with the restriction of movement. Article 125 of the Defense (Emergency) Regulations empowered military governors to declare any specified area "offlimits " to those having no written authorization. The area was then declared a security zone and thus closed to Israeli Arabs who lacked written permission either from the army chief of staff or the minister of defense. Under these provisions, 93 out of 104 Arab villages in Israel were constituted as closed areas out of which no one could move without a military permit. In these areas, official acts of military governors were, with rare exceptions, not subject to review by the civil courts. Individuals could be arrested and imprisoned on unspecified charges, and private property was subject to search and seizure without warrant. Furthermore, the physical expulsion of individuals or groups from the state was not subject to review by the civil courts.

Another land expropriation measure evolved from the Defense (Emergency) Regulations, which were passed in 1949 and renewed annually until 1972 when the legislation was allowed to lapse. Under this law, the Ministry of Defense could, subject to approval by an appropriate committee of the Knesset, create security zones in all or part of what was designated as the "protected zone," an area that included lands adjacent to Israel's borders and other specified areas. According to Sabri Jiryis, an Arab political economist who based his work exclusively on Israeli government sources, the defense minister used this law to categorize "almost half of Galilee, all of the Triangle, an area near the Gaza Strip, and another along the Jerusalem-Jaffa railway line near Batir as security zones." A clause of the law provided that permanent as well as temporary residents could be required to leave the zone and that the individual expelled had four days within which to appeal the eviction notice to an appeals committee. The decisions of these committees were not subject to review or appeal by a civil court.

The most common procedure practised was for the military government to seize up to 40 percent of the land in a given region--the maximum allowed for national security reasons--and to transfer the land to a new kibbutz or moshav. Between 1948 and 1953, about 370 new Jewish settlements were built, and an estimated 350 of the settlements were established on what was termed abandoned Arab property.According to Don Peretz, an American scholar, by 1954 "more than one-third of Israel's Jewish population lived on absentee property deemed so my the Israeli military." They were being forced out of their home.

To the Israeli Arabs, one of the more devastating aspects of the loss of their property was their knowledge that the loss was legally irreversible. The early Zionist settlers--particularly those of the Second Aliyah--adopted a rigid policy that land purchased or in any way acquired by a Jewish organization or individual could never again be sold, leased, or rented to a non-Jew . The policy went so far as to preclude the use of non-Jewish labor on the land. This policy was carried over into the new state. At independence the State of Israel succeeded to the "state lands" of the British Mandate Authority, which had "inherited" the lands held by the government of the Ottoman Empire. The Jewish National Fund was the operating and controlling agency of the Land Development Authority and ensured that land once held by Jews-- either individually or by the "sovereign state of the Jewish people"--did not revert to non-Jews. This denied Israel's non Jewish , mostly Arab, population access to about 95 percent of the land.

Yes, but Hamas goes even further:

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...hamas_e070.htm

I am well aware of the definitions that most people employ on this subject matter. However in your case, can one criticise the Israeli government without being anti-Semitic?

[Saxon wårolord]

Indeed, a man who came to senses in the face of irrational barbarity. Can you do the same? Corruption is part of the fabric of Israeli political history, not to mention Israel are known for hiding their settlement data.

If you want to discuss how Israel was founded on corruption and exploitation then look no further than the US Library of Congress - Israeli Arabs, Arab Land, and Arab Refugees:

The human rights abuses and illegal occupations started with the restriction of movement. Article 125 of the Defense (Emergency) Regulations empowered military governors to declare any specified area "offlimits " to those having no written authorization. The area was then declared a security zone and thus closed to Israeli Arabs who lacked written permission either from the army chief of staff or the minister of defense. Under these provisions, 93 out of 104 Arab villages in Israel were constituted as closed areas out of which no one could move without a military permit. In these areas, official acts of military governors were, with rare exceptions, not subject to review by the civil courts. Individuals could be arrested and imprisoned on unspecified charges, and private property was subject to search and seizure without warrant. Furthermore, the physical expulsion of individuals or groups from the state was not subject to review by the civil courts.

Another land expropriation measure evolved from the Defense (Emergency) Regulations, which were passed in 1949 and renewed annually until 1972 when the legislation was allowed to lapse. Under this law, the Ministry of Defense could, subject to approval by an appropriate committee of the Knesset, create security zones in all or part of what was designated as the "protected zone," an area that included lands adjacent to Israel's borders and other specified areas. According to Sabri Jiryis, an Arab political economist who based his work exclusively on Israeli government sources, the defense minister used this law to categorize "almost half of Galilee, all of the Triangle, an area near the Gaza Strip, and another along the Jerusalem-Jaffa railway line near Batir as security zones." A clause of the law provided that permanent as well as temporary residents could be required to leave the zone and that the individual expelled had four days within which to appeal the eviction notice to an appeals committee. The decisions of these committees were not subject to review or appeal by a civil court.

The most common procedure practised was for the military government to seize up to 40 percent of the land in a given region--the maximum allowed for national security reasons--and to transfer the land to a new kibbutz or moshav. Between 1948 and 1953, about 370 new Jewish settlements were built, and an estimated 350 of the settlements were established on what was termed abandoned Arab property.According to Don Peretz, an American scholar, by 1954 "more than one-third of Israel's Jewish population lived on absentee property deemed so my the Israeli military." They were being forced out of their home.

To the Israeli Arabs, one of the more devastating aspects of the loss of their property was their knowledge that the loss was legally irreversible. The early Zionist settlers--particularly those of the Second Aliyah--adopted a rigid policy that land purchased or in any way acquired by a Jewish organization or individual could never again be sold, leased, or rented to a non-Jew . The policy went so far as to preclude the use of non-Jewish labor on the land. This policy was carried over into the new state. At independence the State of Israel succeeded to the "state lands" of the British Mandate Authority, which had "inherited" the lands held by the government of the Ottoman Empire. The Jewish National Fund was the operating and controlling agency of the Land Development Authority and ensured that land once held by Jews-- either individually or by the "sovereign state of the Jewish people"--did not revert to non-Jews. This denied Israel's non Jewish , mostly Arab, population access to about 95 percent of the land.

Bla, bla, bla.....Who's fault is it if The centralist 'Qadimah' party is entirely corrupted?
It plays in favor of Likud and Yisra'El Beiteinu don't you think?
If Olmert has been arrested and will face trial, this means that our democracy is healthy....
Guess what? That's precisely what happened: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/me...tml#cnnSTCText

I am well aware of the definitions that most people employ on this subject matter. However in your case, can one criticise the Israeli government without being anti-Semitic?

No one can criticize Israel without being anti-semititc simply because there are worse things happening in the world than this so-called 'conflict' which is , in fact; no more than a 'media' conflict.

[Vince Noir]

Bla, bla, bla.....Who's fault is it if The centralist 'Qadimah' party is entirely corrupted?
It plays in favor of Likud and Yisra'El Beiteinu don't you think?

Bla bla bla? I don't understand, are you just so overwhelmed or are you trying to make point?

No one can criticize Israel without being anti-semititc simply because there are worse things happening in the world than this so-called 'conflict' which is , in fact; no more than a 'media' conflict.

So no one can criticise Israel because you say it is anti-Semitic and there are worse things in the world? Is this the summary of your thoughts?

If I were to criticise the internal, perhaps economic, policies of the Israeli government, would you consider that anti-Semitic?

[Vince Noir]

SW it would be easier to just redirect people here. Or at least take the italics and bold off because it is just annoying to read it like that. Surprise surprise you went to the Jewish virtual library.

It is a pretty incoherent opening on the whole. It's not really clear what you are trying to argue. You seem to have just highlighted arbitrary lines with term 'Arab League' in, perhaps in some thought that it validates your position? Aside from missing out large historical events over the formation of Israel, I fail to see how that article will be of any help to your argument. In fact it is quite damming of Israel.

[Saxon wårolord]

Bla bla bla? I don't understand, are you just so overwhelmed or are you trying to make point?

Nope, I'm saying that I'm unwilling to waste some of the most precious minutes of my life.

So no one can criticise Israel because you say it is anti-Semitic and there are worse things in the world? Is this the summary of your thoughts?
If I were to criticise the internal, perhaps economic, policies of the Israeli government, would you consider that anti-Semitic?

Tell me, my good sir.....Have you got any idea about what's happening in Darfur right now?
What about starvation?
Are you aware that Israel is involved in humanitarian aid?
Probably not...perhaps because...you're 'blinded by hate' shall we say?

[Saxon wårolord]

SW it would be easier to just redirect people here. Or at least take the italics and bold off because it is just annoying to read it like that. Surprise surprise you went to the Jewish virtual library.

It is a pretty incoherent opening on the whole. It's not really clear what you are trying to argue. You seem to have just highlighted arbitrary lines with term 'Arab League' in, perhaps in some thought that it validates your position? Aside from missing out large historical events over the formation of Israel, I fail to see how that article will be of any help to your argument. In fact it is quite damming of Israel.

I think that you've revealed your incapacity to participate to a debate.
So I won't yell at you for what concerns your understanding.

[Vince Noir]

Tell me, my good sir.....Have you got any idea about what's happening in Darfur right now? What about starvation? Are you aware that Israel is involved in humanitarian aid? Probably not...perhaps because...you're 'blinded by hate' shall we say?

You make an emotive appeal to me? Ha! There is strife throughout the world. Sudan is an internal conflict. However the subjugation of the Palestinians is quite different. In the words of Noam Chomsky, arguably the most learned man alive, Israel is illegally annexing Palestine, ethnically cleansing the populace and subjecting the remaining few to a level of authoritarian terror surpassing the most warped Orwellian fantasy. Moshe Dayan, the celebrated Israeli politician and military commander, really hit the nail on the head when he casually remarked "we have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and we will see where this process leads."

I laugh when I think that even in thousand years if Israel still exists, it will always be known as the nation that founded itself on racism, genocide, corruption, deceit and terrorism. You can re-write your history books in Hebrew for your indoctrinated IDF dogs and slaves, but ideas my friend are bulletproof. And people will always know what you did. Even if you won't admit that it is wrong, the rest of the world knows. Because, as the good man Steven Zipperstein, professor of Jewish Culture and History at Stanford University, argues - a belief in the State of Israel's responsibility for the Arab-Israeli conflict is considered "part of what a reasonably informed, progressive, decent person thinks." Couldn't of said it better!

[Vince Noir]

I think that you've revealed your incapacity to participate to a debate. So I won't yell at you for what concerns your understanding.

I don't think anyone would expect you to yell at someone on an internet forum. I'm still waiting for a coherent reply concerning my questions.

[Saxon wårolord]

You make an emotive appeal to me? Ha! There is strife throughout the world. Sudan is an internal conflict. However the subjugation of the Palestinians is quite different. In the words of Noam Chomsky, arguably the most learned man alive, Israel is illegally annexing Palestine, ethnically cleansing the populace and subjecting the remaining few to a level of authoritarian terror surpassing the most warped Orwellian fantasy. Moshe Dayan, the celebrated Israeli politician and military commander, really hit the nail on the head when he casually remarked "we have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and we will see where this process leads."

You know NOTHING about Darfur do you?
The reason for the conflict in Darfur (which has already made 600,000 dead) is the same than the one in Israel:

A mix between pan arabism and pan-islamism.

But there are other factors that anti-Israel supporters would NEVER mention:

- Political and economic marginalization of Darfur in the 20th century
- Islamization and Arabism
- The North South Civil War Peace Process
- The mobilization of armed militias
- Regional relations with Chad and Libya and implications for Darfur

I laugh when I think that even in thousand years if Israel still exists, it will always be known as the nation that founded itself on racism, genocide, corruption, deceit and terrorism. You can re-write your history books in Hebrew for your indoctrinated IDF dogs and slaves, but ideas my friend are bulletproof. And people will always know what you did. Even if you won't admit that it is wrong, the rest of the world knows. Because, as the good man Steven Zipperstein, professor of Jewish Culture and History at Stanford University, argues - a belief in the State of Israel's responsibility for the Arab-Israeli conflict is considered "part of what a reasonably informed, progressive, decent person thinks." Couldn't of said it better!

Do you honestly believe that Sudan and its buddies from the arab league will be remembered for such things?
Without a doubt: No.
Why?
Simply because no one's willing to make propaganda out of it......
In contrast, I can see Pallywood running 24 hours a day on my BRITISH T.V CHANNELS...
You are no more than a derived product from this well organized propaganda.

[Vince Noir]

SW, I have been to Palestine many times. I have seen it for my self and spoken to the people. And before you accuse me of bias, I am white British male, educated in a staunchly religious, Catholic boarding school. Hardly your average 'terrorist' sympathising environment. I made an informed decision I believe to be rational, moral and humane.

And please, your bigotry and racism is starting to bore. The situation in Darfur is and has nothing to do with this. You are delusional.

[Saxon wårolord]

SW, I have been to Palestine many times. I have seen it for my self and spoken to the people. And before you accuse me of bias, I am white British male, educated in a staunchly religious, Catholic boarding school. Hardly your average 'terrorist' sympathising environment. I made an informed decision I believe to be rational, moral and humane.

And please, your bigotry and racism is starting to bore. The situation in Darfur is and has nothing to do with this. You are delusional.

Your reaction doesn't surprize me.

I think that you revealed your essence...
Yet I want you to realize:

http://www.sarpn.org.za/documents/d0...2005_Chap2.pdf

FYI I spend half of the year next to what you call 'Palestine'.
It never prevented me from making very good friends.....Palestinian friends.....which told me about their Jewish origin.