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Thread: The holy 2 percents,,,

  1. #1

    Default The holy 2 percents,,,

    I read in a magazine yesterday that only two percent of ALL the soldiers in WW2 acctually shot at the enemy,, the rest shot in the ground or on the sides of the enemy soldiers...

    It made me think; would I shoot the enemy?? Probably yes,, my instinct for survival would make me do so... But what made the other soldiers miss on purpose if not instinct??
    I want ro know if you would shot the enemy or not,, please note were you come from too so I can see if there is a different opinion from nation to nation...

    -----------------------------------

    It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless
    they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. - Voltaire

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    I would refuse to fight unless there were certain circumstances, i would not be there in the first place and therefore cannot make a judgement as to whether i would shoot.\


    BTW, i have doubts about this 2 percent statistic, it sounds very low.

  3. #3

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    i think you'd shoot back if you were shot at, even if you were drafted and didn't want to be there; at least i would. but ww2 did have a lot of cowards that hid in fetal positions while their comrades fought. the US military realised this after studies and started a program to have soliders trained to instinctively shoot at human shaped siliouttes. the result was that by vietnam there was a huge increase in the number of soldiers that actually shot at the enemy

  4. #4

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    I saw a programme some months ago that also used this 2% statistic. If you think about it, is maybe true, in circumstances where the soldiers life wasn't in extreme danger (enemy right in front with a gun). If 100% of soldiers shot at the enemy like it is often assumed, casualties would be A LOT higher and faster than those suffered in the two world wars etc.

    Also, during the seven years war, Prussian officers found during target practice that one volley from a unit should kill 300 men, when in battle it only killed 3. But I believe that was decided between opposing regiements, that they would shoot over each others heads, because casualties were horrific in the seven year war.

    The Programme I saw says that 1% are genuine heros, the other 1% are pyschopaths who aren't affected by death, and in some cases enjoy killing. Though I would hate to write off 1 out of 100 of the men who fought for their countrys as nutters.

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    allthedamnnamesaretaken,

    But i assume that also contributed to civilian casualties?


    Anyways, if i was drafted I would go to jail before fighting, in fact even if it was a situation where i would fight, i wouldnt if i was drafted. I would either go to jail or go to Canada, you can call me a coward but thats not the whole thing and i dont care anyway.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheist Peace
    allthedamnnamesaretaken,

    But i assume that also contributed to civilian casualties?


    Anyways, if i was drafted I would go to jail before fighting, in fact even if it was a situation where i would fight, i wouldnt if i was drafted. I would either go to jail or go to Canada, you can call me a coward but thats not the whole thing and i dont care anyway.
    I simply wouldn't go if I was drafted because a military draft is unconstitutional. All of the Founding Fathers found it dangerous to a free society.

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    Well thats one of the things i dont like about it, but otherwise i have a huge disagreement with the principle of a draft and i consider myself a free person with the choice to go or not even if someone says i dont.

  8. #8

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    So,, even if you were fighting for your own nation you wouldn't kill an opposing man???
    That sound cowardly to me, I would gladly die for my own country...it would be a personal honor for me,, I'm like other norwegians were nationalistic...

    --------------------------

    When an army is without establishments and a military system,
    it is very difficult to organise an army.
    -- Napoleon Boneparte I --

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    I dont have much 'pride' for my country and i wouldnt die for it, just because it is the current established border and government doesnt mean to much to me, and i dont consider any country above another.

    I am from the US
    Last edited by Atheist Peace; August 18, 2005 at 02:43 PM.

  10. #10

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    Can people please note their country's name in their reply??
    It makes it possible for me/us to see which nations that means what...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son of the Empire
    So,, even if you were fighting for your own nation you wouldn't kill an opposing man???
    That sound cowardly to me, I would gladly die for my own country...it would be a personal honor for me,, I'm like other norwegians were nationalistic...

    --------------------------

    When an army is without establishments and a military system,
    it is very difficult to organise an army.
    -- Napoleon Boneparte I --
    Lol...haven't been many Norwegians dying for their country recently. I'm Norwegian too (ethnically, I was born in the US), but I don't think you should be anxious to say you'd DIE for your country. Fighting and then as a result perhaps dying is one thing, just volunteering to die isn't really heroic exactly.

    As to the statistic, I believe this is based on what soldiers actually said afterwards? Because i recall also hearing that a very large percentage of soliders lie about having shot at the enemy, to preserve what's left of their innocence and all that. You block it out, convince yourself it never happened. It'd be awfully strange is 98% of the soldiers in a battle were secretly shooting at the ground. I think it's just that most couldn't bear to tell their mothers, wives, and children that they had killed a man or many.

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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheist Peace
    I would either go to jail or go to Canada, you can call me a coward but thats not the whole thing and i dont care anyway.
    Wow jail or Canada? That's a tough one. :laughing: :laughing: I'm Canadian and I should find the comparison a little offensive but I guess some Americans don't hold Canada in a high regard. I hope you come to Canada instead of jail, you might be surprised :wink: :wink: At least we got some good beer.

    Back on topic I guess being scared :wub: would have the effect of you shooting all over the place at the enemy on the ground etc. I find that stat pretty low though. If it was me I'd be running out of ammo pretty fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEMETRIOUS II
    Wow jail or Canada? That's a tough one. :laughing: :laughing: I'm Canadian and I should find the comparison a little offensive but I guess some Americans don't hold Canada in a high regard. I hope you come to Canada instead of jail, you might be surprised :wink: :wink: At least we got some good beer.

    Back on topic I guess being scared :wub: would have the effect of you shooting all over the place at the enemy on the ground etc. I find that stat pretty low though. If it was me I'd be running out of ammo pretty fast.

    I didnt mean it like that, i like Canada. What i meant was that either i would run to canada or i would make a stronger stand by staying where i was and letting them lock me up.

  14. #14

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    you do have to take into account that a lot of bullets were coming from sub- machine guns or just plain old machine guns. they werent the most accurate things in the world

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    Quote Originally Posted by carthage_hanibal
    you do have to take into account that a lot of bullets were coming from sub- machine guns or just plain old machine guns. they werent the most accurate things in the world
    But you're still shooting AT the enemy even if you miss. That's not the point at all.

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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan11088
    Lol...haven't been many Norwegians dying for their country recently. I'm Norwegian too (ethnically, I was born in the US), but I don't think you should be anxious to say you'd DIE for your country. Fighting and then as a result perhaps dying is one thing, just volunteering to die isn't really heroic exactly.

    As to the statistic, I believe this is based on what soldiers actually said afterwards? Because i recall also hearing that a very large percentage of soliders lie about having shot at the enemy, to preserve what's left of their innocence and all that. You block it out, convince yourself it never happened. It'd be awfully strange is 98% of the soldiers in a battle were secretly shooting at the ground. I think it's just that most couldn't bear to tell their mothers, wives, and children that they had killed a man or many.

    True,, true... we haven't killed to many to protect ourselves lately,, But you see catch my drift,,

    About the topic,, I were on the shooting course a couple of hours ago... I were shooting with an german mauser (newly restorated with scope) and I tried to let go as many bullets as I could in a minute... The result were 8 bullets away(a magazine+3) and almost all missed,, That lead me to the conclusion that you miss alot when under pressure...this may affect the numbers in a negative way...

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    LegionnaireX's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Of course I would kill the enemy... cuz I wouldn't miss. I'm an NRA certified pro-marksman. *brag over*

    I didnt mean it like that, i like Canada. What i meant was that either i would run to canada or i would make a stronger stand by staying where i was and letting them lock me up.
    Why would you not fight for your country? There is something called patriotism...and courage. But if you insist on not fighting, I'd say the more courageouss thing to do would be to let them lock you up. Running to Canada is weak.

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    Last edited by the Black Prince; August 18, 2005 at 03:51 PM.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by LegionnaireX
    Of course I would kill the enemy... cuz I wouldn't miss. I'm an NRA certified pro-marksman. *brag over*



    Why would you not fight for your country? There is something called patriotism...and courage. But if you insist on not fighting, I'd say the more courageouss thing to do would be to let them lock you up. Running to Canada is weak.

    Finally a man of my calibre... Keep it coming guys!!!
    Last edited by the Black Prince; August 18, 2005 at 03:52 PM.

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    Lets see:

    I think maybe 90% of soldiers never came in gun range of the enemy.
    Of those who came in range only 50% were actually carrying a weapon at the time (thank the Russians for that statistic).
    Of those who came in range and had a weapon to fire 20% were killed by the enemy before they could fire themselves.
    This leaves just 4% of all soldiers actually pulling the trigger in range of the enemy.

    Maybe somebody can find some statistics on how many soldiers were killed by artillery and bombs vs by rifles.
    But I think only a very small percentage was killed in man-to-man combat.



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    Quote Originally Posted by LegionnaireX
    Why would you not fight for your country? There is something called patriotism...and courage. But if you insist on not fighting, I'd say the more courageouss thing to do would be to let them lock you up. Running to Canada is weak.
    Hey, ease off. I think the guy's complaint is rather with the principle of drafting, not a fear of fighting. And no one can know who will be a coward or a hero in times of crisis until they've proved themselves to be such. Any war veterans on the board, please step in and call us all pussies now That should solve things.
    Last edited by the Black Prince; August 18, 2005 at 03:52 PM.

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