Mordor Uruks vs. Isengard Uruk Hai...

[Ngugi]

Are there any real comparison made by Tolkien at all? Not AFAIK, and lest so the discussion is doomed to run into the reviwers gut feeling - which often will point in a new direction with each person, all of us probably wrong ^^
Both Isengards and Mordors where Man-Orcs. As there are no 'recepie on best Uruk' and we do not know neither % of heritage from either race (especially on Mordors older stock) nor the constitution of the breeders its hard to tell anything than that Uruks [both kinds] where greater than Orcs and on par with common Men.

Edit: Can't say the Uruks of Isengard seems dumber in the books than the Uruks we meet in Cirith Ungol?

[muller227]

Pretty much what Ngugi said but I will expand a bit, whose better in TATW usually the Uruk Hai but not always. The Uruk Hai seem to me viewing them from Merry and Pippins viewpoint of the two types more disciplined and capable of loyalty, pride in themselves and their service to Saruman. Compare that to Grishnakh's actions he seems to know something about the ring and seems to want it for himself. Shagrat and Gorbag clearly prefer days of freedom plundering rather than the big bosses who screwed things up leaving it to the poor Uruks to fix. Let alone Gorbags outright treachery in demanding the shirt for himself. Shagrat seems more upright and human while Grishnakh and Gorbag appear a bit more apelike. Clearly their were different groups of Uruks within Mordor itself.

In the end I would say the Uruk Hai are the greater due to their positive character traits evil though they were they are more easily understood than the slavish hatred of the Mordor Orcs for their master, reminiscent of Morgoth's orcs feelings toward him. I personally think the greatest orcs dwell within the Misty Mountains but are very few in number and meddle little in the affairs of ME. In Moria we get a glimpse of the toughest orc any of the company ever run into.

[boboav]

don't forgot that isengard's uruk-hai can march also with the sun, mordor's orcs and uruk has problems with this

[Agamaran]

Pretty much what Ngugi said but I will expand a bit, whose better in TATW usually the Uruk Hai but not always. The Uruk Hai seem to me viewing them from Merry and Pippins viewpoint of the two types more disciplined and capable of loyalty, pride in themselves and their service to Saruman. Compare that to Grishnakh's actions he seems to know something about the ring and seems to want it for himself. Shagrat and Gorbag clearly prefer days of freedom plundering rather than the big bosses who screwed things up leaving it to the poor Uruks to fix. Let alone Gorbags outright treachery in demanding the shirt for himself. Shagrat seems more upright and human while Grishnakh and Gorbag appear a bit more apelike. Clearly their were different groups of Uruks within Mordor itself.

In the end I would say the Uruk Hai are the greater due to their positive character traits evil though they were they are more easily understood than the slavish hatred of the Mordor Orcs for their master, reminiscent of Morgoth's orcs feelings toward him. I personally think the greatest orcs dwell within the Misty Mountains but are very few in number and meddle little in the affairs of ME. In Moria we get a glimpse of the toughest orc any of the company ever run into.

Discipline had nothing to do with the Isengard Uruks--that was the work of the voice of Saruman. Uruks from Mordor are no different than the Isengard Uruks. Without any distinct leadership they would fight amongst the ranks.

There's also the trouble with defining who was what. Uruk-hai literally means 'orc-folk' but we're given some insight that they seem to be "larger" than other orcs--at least the ones they call 'snaga' or 'slaves.' Those might be the ever-elusive 'goblin' type (as the word goblin, orc, and hobgoblin was used interchangeably in The Hobbit).

don't forgot that isengard's uruk-hai can march also with the sun, mordor's orcs and uruk has problems with this

Not really--Isengard's Uruks had the same problem, just not as of a big a problem as Mordor's Uruks. Although it doesn't really matter, considering Sauron would always twist the weather or cause some force of nature to cover his troops in shadows.

[7UKMatt]

I'd say that Saruman's half-orcs would make better individual soldiers than Mordor's orcs, in general. Since Saruman bred uruks with sturdy hill-men, they're big and strong. Being part-human, they are more intelligent and they do not suffer fatigue in the daylight.

I get the impression that Mordor's battlefield-tactics are different, anyway. Mordor relies upon vast swarms of expendable orcs to overwhelm enemy positions - and huge shock-troops, such as trolls. Sauron doesn't need every orc to be a superior soldier, as he can breed near-limitless numbers. The orcs are ruled with terror - despite their ill-disciplined savagery, the Witch-King can enforce Sauron's will and dominate them (similar to the way in which Saruman can influence his half-orcs, perhaps).

In the Third Age, Mordor's army would almost certainly crush Isengard's army, despite Isengard's better individual warriors. Mordor's army is relatively huge and unstoppable (imagine the battle for Minas Tirith if Aragorn had not managed to gain the assistance of the Army of the Dead). In the books, Saruman's main hope for victory lies in obtaining the One Ring for himself. This, he reasons, will give him all the power he needs.

[Lordinquisitor]

Oh 7UK, why do you use both the books and the movies as reference? Army of the Dead during the siege of Minas Tirith? Ouch.

I still think there wasn`t much difference between Sarumans Uruk-Hai and Saurons Uruk-Hai. The tactics they employed were mostly the same, too, "Throw everything you have against their walls!" Sauron simply had access to more soldiers.

[boboav]

don't forgot that isengard's uruk-hai can march also with the sun, mordor's orcs and uruk has problems with this

Not really--Isengard's Uruks had the same problem, just not as of a big a problem as Mordor's Uruks. Although it doesn't really matter, considering Sauron would always twist the weather or cause some force of nature to cover his troops in shadows.

Please read loft.................

you can see here too http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Uruk-hai in the parts of the Books (I read Tolkien's books before speck here) you will see: The Uruk-hai are faster than normal Orcs and could travel during the day without being weakened by the sun.

[eugenioso]

Ever since playing Third Age for the first time I have been blessed to be privied to links to many wonderous sites like LOTR Wiki and Encyclopedia of Arda. As I surf the web collecting info and keeping what I learn here in mind I get the strange sensation that Mordor Uruks were more numerous then Uruk Hai and stronger but less intelligent. Whereas Uruk Hai was smarter then Mordor Uruks yet less numerous yet blessed with more standardized equipment, armor, and weapons as well as training. And while it's unclear to me who would win in a straight fight it seems that, according to the in game Gondor faction summary, Mordor Orcs gave the Gondorians in Ithilien a hell of a run for their money before pulling back across the Anduin. So my questions are:

1.) Were Mordor Uruks part of the raiding parties that eventually led to the abandonment of Ithilien?

2.) Which were superior as a military force (which would be better soldiers in a war overall) Mordor Uruks or Isengard Uruk Hai?

3.) Why do the armies of Mordor have equipment that is basically scavenged and beaten up? If Mordor had superior industrial capabilities and larger hordes of slaves then Isengard why was Isengard the only one of the two main evil entities the one with a standardized military force?

1.) yes, probably. though Mordor had had Morannon orcs as their elite force, which were basically bigger, nastier and slightly more corageous, they were mostly used to guard the important mordor fortresses, like the black gate or even Cirith Ungol after it fell to mordor. Mordor Uruks were Sauron's most recent creations, basically a specially bred orc that was even better at fighting than the morannon orcs. so even if sauron had little time to breed them, they still might have been present during the battles of Ithilien.

2.) Isengard Uruk Hai were indeed "upgraded" versions of the normal uruks of mordor. Saruman learned how to breed the uruks in his own breeding grounds, and apparently thanks to saruman's magic as well as his inherent genius, he began to cross breed the uruks with goblins, which in turn created a stronger version of the mordor uruk hai. both uruk hai species, mordor and isengard, were far more disciplined than your standard orc, as well as being taller, stronger and less affected by sunlight, which orcs could barely stand. however, the isengard uruks were far better equipped and usually led by the strongest of their breed. also the isengard uruks, at least the first batch that saruman made, were actually quite stronger than the standard uruks, since they were given a long time to breed properly, rather than the rushed uruks that saruman made afterwards. notable uruks that came out of the first breed were Lurtz and Lugburz.

3.) orcs are no smiths. just because they had a massive industrial capacity and a lot of forges, the equipment that the orcs made was of incredibly sub par skill. they MIGHT have been able to "coerce" one of their countless slaves into making a fine blade, but these would never be able to fully mass produce quality equipment. the best equipment was saved for the elite mordor fighters, like the Morannon orcs or even the uruks. most of the orcs, their numbers too vast to fully equip, would have to make do with crude spears and whatever could be looted from the enemy. Isengard is in itself different. Saruman managed to mass produce blades and armor for his troops of somewhat good quality, but he also did not have to arm a truly gigantic force of orcs. his forces were few in number when comparing raw numbers, but they were (as previously mentioned) better bred uruks and were especially tailored to fight as a siege army, with massive armor and shields, as well as the crossbows, which only saruman could produce en masse due to his technical abilities. Also, neither isengard nor mordor had a standarized military force.

[muller227]

Discipline had nothing to do with the Isengard Uruks--that was the work of the voice of Saruman. Uruks from Mordor are no different than the Isengard Uruks. Without any distinct leadership they would fight amongst the ranks.

Not really--Isengard's Uruks had the same problem, just not as of a big a problem as Mordor's Uruks. Although it doesn't really matter, considering Sauron would always twist the weather or cause some force of nature to cover his troops in shadows.

The voice of Saruman is something I had not thought about, but certainly would go far too explain the different attitudes I mentioned. Thanks for the insight.

[KingLeonidas300]

Um both Groups of Uruks were called Uruk-hai King.


Weren't Isengards Uruk-Hai somewhat more intelligent? I'm just now rereading the books (I'm on the two towers right at the part were Eomer confronts Aragorn Gimli and Legolas) and I can't remember if that was an invention of the movie or the books.

I'll make it more specific lmao. Isengards.

[Santeri]

I'm not going to interfere in main discussion because in my opinion this is rather pointless throwing own minds with referring in both movies and books and with many different knowledge

But when you speak about how Mordor orcs were equipped I want you to remember that Sauron was Maia of Aulë the Smith and also orcs were made by Melkor who was also a great smith

[Lordinquisitor]

2.) Isengard Uruk Hai were indeed "upgraded" versions of the normal uruks of mordor. Saruman learned how to breed the uruks in his own breeding grounds, and apparently thanks to saruman's magic as well as his inherent genius, he began to cross breed the uruks with goblins, which in turn created a stronger version of the mordor uruk hai. both uruk hai species, mordor and isengard, were far more disciplined than your standard orc, as well as being taller, stronger and less affected by sunlight, which orcs could barely stand. however, the isengard uruks were far better equipped and usually led by the strongest of their breed. also the isengard uruks, at least the first batch that saruman made, were actually quite stronger than the standard uruks, since they were given a long time to breed properly, rather than the rushed uruks that saruman made afterwards. notable uruks that came out of the first breed were Lurtz and Lugburz.

3.) orcs are no smiths. just because they had a massive industrial capacity and a lot of forges, the equipment that the orcs made was of incredibly sub par skill. they MIGHT have been able to "coerce" one of their countless slaves into making a fine blade, but these would never be able to fully mass produce quality equipment. the best equipment was saved for the elite mordor fighters, like the Morannon orcs or even the uruks. most of the orcs, their numbers too vast to fully equip, would have to make do with crude spears and whatever could be looted from the enemy. Isengard is in itself different. Saruman managed to mass produce blades and armor for his troops of somewhat good quality, but he also did not have to arm a truly gigantic force of orcs. his forces were few in number when comparing raw numbers, but they were (as previously mentioned) better bred uruks and were especially tailored to fight as a siege army, with massive armor and shields, as well as the crossbows, which only saruman could produce en masse due to his technical abilities. Also, neither isengard nor mordor had a standarized military force.

This are two points i have to strongly disagree with.

First, i don`t think Saruman crossbreeded Uruks with Goblins in order to create even stronger ones. Why should that make them stronger? Also, they weren`t really better equipped and the first ones also weren`t stronger than later ones- How should he rush Orc Breeding? Orcs breed like humans, elves and dwarves- Through sexual intercourse. Sarumans Uruks were the offspring of orcs and humans. (This is also the origin of Saurons Uruk, IIRC.)


Second Point, orc equipment was pretty good. It is stated that even the Goblins of the Mountains were skilled smiths- While they were unable to produce beautiful things they were very skilled at making cruel and effective weapons.

Massive plate armor and big shields as well as crossbows didn`t exist. Mordor was also able to produce far more weapons and armor than Saruman.. Oh, and while they might have had no standardized military force at least Mordors orcs were pretty good organized with a strict hierarchy, infrastructure etc.

[Poosticks7]

What about the Uruks* of the Misty Mountains, why does no one ever include them in the 'whose got the hardest orcsies' debate?

*Or Greater Orcs or whatever Bolg and his papa were - oh and that fellow in Moria who gave the fellowship a run for their money.

[Dustindesrctin]

This are two points i have to strongly disagree with.

First, i don`t think Saruman crossbreeded Uruks with Goblins in order to create even stronger ones. Why should that make them stronger? Also, they weren`t really better equipped and the first ones also weren`t stronger than later ones- How should he rush Orc Breeding? Orcs breed like humans, elves and dwarves- Through sexual intercourse. Sarumans Uruks were the offspring of orcs and humans. (This is also the origin of Saurons Uruk, IIRC.)


Second Point, orc equipment was pretty good. It is stated that even the Goblins of the Mountains were skilled smiths- While they were unable to produce beautiful things they were very skilled at making cruel and effective weapons.

Massive plate armor and big shields as well as crossbows didn`t exist. Mordor was also able to produce far more weapons and armor than Saruman.. Oh, and while they might have had no standardized military force at least Mordors orcs were pretty good organized with a strict hierarchy, infrastructure etc.

Goblins werent really very good smiths, they had their weapons made by the slaves they took when raiding villages. atleast thats what it said in the hobbit (i just started re-reading it)

[muller227]

Goblins werent really very good smiths, they had their weapons made by the slaves they took when raiding villages. atleast thats what it said in the hobbit (i just started re-reading it)

Do you mean this
"Now Goblin are cruel, wicked, and bad hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs and also instuments of torture they make very well, or get get other people to make to their design. Prisoners and slave......."

lazy when they can get someone else to do the work yes, I don't get unskilled from this passage.

[Dustindesrctin]

Do you mean this
"Now Goblin are cruel, wicked, and bad hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs and also instuments of torture they make very well, or get get other people to make to their design. Prisoners and slave......."

lazy when they can get someone else to do the work yes, I don't get unskilled from this passage.

Yes, thats what I was talking about, but I misread sorry

[Lordinquisitor]

What about the Uruks* of the Misty Mountains, why does no one ever include them in the 'whose got the hardest orcsies' debate?

*Or Greater Orcs or whatever Bolg and his papa were - oh and that fellow in Moria who gave the fellowship a run for their money.

Indeed. I guess differentiating that much between Isengard, Mordor and Goblin Uruks doesn`t make much sense. Uruks were simply a stronger breed of Orcs. I guess there are some subtle nuances, but it`s hard and fruitless to point them out since tolkien often used various terms interchangeable.

I mean, there were Goblins, Snaga, Orcs, Uruks, Uruk-Hai, Half Orcs, Great Orcs, Boldogs etc.

Even worse: Later in his writings tolkien grew uncomfortable with the thought that Orcs could be corrupted elves and instead wanted them to be more like animals; Or corrupted Humans with just a bit of elf blood. Very confusing.

My personal opinions:

Goblins and Orcs were a term that could be used interchangeable.

Snaga were a breed of small and relatively weak orcs, used as slaves, workers and cannonfodder.

Uruks and Uruk-Hai are the same. I guess sometimes they were also called great orcs, and we should assume that Mordor sent some Uruks into the Misty Mountains. They are stronger than normal orcs, able to endure the sun better and are also as big as a human. They are created by interbreeding Orcs and Humans.

Half Orcs are also the offspring of Orcs and Humans; But they were more human than Orc. Or at least looked enough like Humans to act as Spies.

Boldogs are lesser maia that look like Orcs.

[Agamaran]

Please read loft.................

you can see here too http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Uruk-hai in the parts of the Books (I read Tolkien's books before speck here) you will see: The Uruk-hai are faster than normal Orcs and could travel during the day without being weakened by the sun.

I've read the books enough times to not go to some worthless wiki to get my facts straight. Maybe you should actually read the books before "specking" as well, specifically the "Uruk-hai" chapter.

[Incan]

agamarran is right, though on one thing im pretty sure in the books it stated that they were a new breed of orc, so beside his voice compelling them he imbued some of his own magic into them while mordor uruks were saurons creations, again been a while since ive read the books but im pretty sure it runs like this...and ya lol this was necroed.

I prefer searching the tolkien general discussion thread because every topic has been brought up 10 times and discussed to death

[Bregil]

I like how this thread was necro'd and everyone just went along with it.

What the heck, why not. It's an interesting discussion.