Mordor Uruks vs. Isengard Uruk Hai...

[XXSerb-LegendXX]

Uruk-Hai all the way...big powerful, well trained and as a result far more effeccient and lethal than the standard Mordor Uruks or any other orc.

[Lordinquisitor]

Uruk-Hai all the way...big powerful, well trained and as a result far more effeccient and lethal than the standard Mordor Uruks or any other orc.

Strictly speaking Mordor Uruks are Uruk-Hai, too.

[Æsir]

Strictly speaking Mordor Uruks are Uruk-Hai, too.

Exactly! Uruk and Uruk-Hai are synonyms. That means the same - Orc folk. The advanced Uruk-Hai of Saruman were called "fighting Uruk-Hai".

[Leonidas X]

Uruk-hai sound too friendly. Like "URUK... Hi!!!" with a smile and a wave. Aside from that little discovery, I'd still pick them to win. Why? Well, it seems like a pretty even fight. Typical smaller but stronger force against an opponent who relies more on numerical advantage. If this were Rome: Total War and it was something like a few Urbans vs. some Warbands, well, I think we'd all know the result. But I think it'd be much closer than that. Still, Uruk-hai were created to fight. They're going to have better training, equipment, morale, stamina, etc.

Then again, you never know. Maybe they'd all meet on the battlefield, the Mordor Uruks would start to charge, but then they'd stop and shake the Uruk-hai's hands like the Irish did in Braveheart. Then they'd all skip merrily to Minas Tirith and slaughter some Gondorians. Seems more plausible.

[Vaz]

Exactly! Uruk and Uruk-Hai are synonyms. That means the same - Orc folk. The advanced Uruk-Hai of Saruman were called "fighting Uruk-Hai".

As opposed to the sleeping Uruk-Hai of Mordor? Or Melkors infamous "knitting Uruk Hai"? Or perhaps the rarely seen Gorgoroth Uruk Hai, the DaisyChaining Uruk Hai?

[Juli]

The "Isengard Uruk Hai" are, as has been said many times, a cross-breed of orcs and men (yuck). Such dudes (half-orcs, goblin-men, Uruk Hai or whatever the hell you want to call them) are man-high, strong and fearsome, being as savage as orcs and strong as men. The Mordor Uruks, on the other hand, are Orcs, only somewhat bigger and stronger, but not as tall as humans. Still dangerous, of course

Isengarders are not "fighting Uruk Hai", they just are Uruk Hai and they just like to say "fighting", so there is no such race as "Fighting Uruk Hai"...

On the third chapter of "The Two Towers" gives a perfect comparison between the Isengarders and the Uruks of Mordor. I cannot quote on this, because my LOTR book is in spanish, but it basically says what I wrote above

About the weaponry of the Isengarders (which some people believe to be better than that of the Mordorians, perhaps because of the movie), they are described to fight with mannish-like bows and short broadswords, as well as shields. Armour is not mentioned, but they do have helmets. The Uruks of Mordor, on the other hand, are mentioned to fight with cimitars, shields and helmets. Again, armour is not described. Therefore, in the book, none of both sides is armed better than the other, they are just armed in a different way

And the Isengarders are "better" fighters, but not because of their equipment, only because of their bigger size. They are NOT better trained or anything...

Damn, I´m a LOTR freak

[Æsir]

Sorry, but half-orcs and Uruk-hai definetely arn't the same. There may be only discussion on whether are the half-orcs and Goblin-men the same.

[Juli]

I never said they were. The thing is, Half-Orcs (the Isengarders) sometimes call themselves Uruk Hai, so it is complicated... but indeed, they are not the same thing

[Hermes Trismegistos]

About the weaponry of the Isengarders (which some people believe to be better than that of the Mordorians, perhaps because of the movie), they are described to fight with mannish-like bows and short broadswords, as well as shields. Armour is not mentioned, but they do have helmets. The Uruks of Mordor, on the other hand, are mentioned to fight with cimitars, shields and helmets. Again, armour is not described. Therefore, in the book, none of both sides is armed better than the other, they are just armed in a different way

And the Isengarders are "better" fighters, but not because of their equipment, only because of their bigger size. They are NOT better trained or anything...

You are right with all that you say except for one detail: In Cirith Ungol, Frodo dresses in a ring mail, probably taken from a smaller orc, but I'm sure the Uruk-Hai as the elite will wear the same or even better armour (except they rely on their superior strengh so much that they think they don't need it...).

Tolkien on the subject: "Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it wa orch. Related, no doubt was the word uruk of the Black Speech, thoigh this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordro and Isengard. the lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-Hai, snaga 'slave'."

As individuals , the larger orcs are called Uruk, Uruk-Hai is the collective word for the race. It gets a bit confusing in Isengard because of the half-orcs who are sometimes referred to as orcs, uruks, uruk-hai, goblin-men etc.

[Anibal at portas]

then,king kong could to do half-orcs units for isengard.

[Outlawstar15a2]

What makes you think there are no female orcs?



No, Saruman just cross-bred orcs with men to create a more refined breed.

That seems to be the general census here on the TATW boards at least the threads I've been in where it was discussed. No pits, no female Orcs.

[ISA Gunner]

The Mordor Uruks were basically the elite, most powerful Orcs that Sauron had. They were bred selectively because of their size, strength and intelligence.
The Isengard Uruk-hai are these elite Orcs from Mordor cross-bred with corrupted men by Saruman. These were even stronger, tougher and more intelligent then their Mordor counterparts. They were also completely immune to sunlight which was their best attribute.
Allthough Uruk means 'Orc' and Uruk-hai means 'Orc-folk' and they are essentially the same thing by name, in reality they're not at all.

In the books, the Isengard Uruk-hai were few in numbers and Saruman's army comprised mainly of regular Orcs and Dunlendings which were basically game for the soldiers of Rohan.
In the movies however, PJ made the entire army Uruk-hai which is why they were seen to be so strong and powerful (they were anyway but their small numbers had a limited effect).

No, Mordor's armies hardly used scavenged, beaten up armour. The regular Orcs of Mordor used crude but effective iron armour, shields and weapons from the forges of Gorgoroth. The Uruks of Mordor had the best armour the industries of Mordor could manufacture. Thicker, heavier iron armour and arms (as seen in the 3rd movie when they're marching on Minas Tirith). The lesser Orcs however (Snaga - meaning 'slaves') probably got little to no armour so they would have had to find and make do with old, broken junk.

And you have to remember that Saruman's accomplishments in engineering made quality mass production a reality. While the making of armour and arms in Mordor was a relatively crude and slow process, Saruman mastered industrial manufacturing and this allowed him to pump out good quality iron armour at a fast rate which is what allowed him to equip his army in such a short amount of time.

So yeah, in short...Isengard Uruk-hai >> Mordor Uruks in a 1 v 1 fight.

[Lordinquisitor]

I don`t think the Isengard Uruks are crossbreeds of Mordor Uruks and men. I think they are half "random orc from the MM" and half man.

All Saruman did was copying Sauron- His Uruks, his Weapons, His furnaces, His fortress...

Sauron had far more and far better furnaces than Isengard.

[ISA Gunner]

If Saruon had more and better furnaces, he would have been able to outfit his armies with very good quality iron plate army very quickly. So quickly in fact this he would have been able to overrun Gondor years earlier.
Saruman was allied with the Orcs of the MM but Sauron sent him a small force of Orcs as protection and labour so they could get Isengard's industry up and running quickly. There definitely would have had to be some Uruks at least involved to control the Orc labourers because they only obeyed Sauron, RingWraiths, Trolls and their own commanders (Uruks).

[Lordinquisitor]

I think the following quote from the books is an good one on this matter.

1. The Road to Isengard, page 724

But Saruman had slowly shaped it (Isengard) to his shifting purposes, and made it better as he deceived- for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child`s model or a slaves flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasureable strength.

And don`t forget! Even though Mordor could produce more weapons and armours Sauron still had to equip more orcs than Saruman. And he had to wait for the right time.

[Vaz]

If Saruon had more and better furnaces, he would have been able to outfit his armies with very good quality iron plate army very quickly. So quickly in fact this he would have been able to overrun Gondor years earlier.

No, he wouldn't. It's based on Dark Ages, not Middle Ages.

Saruman was allied with the Orcs of the MM

Really?

but Sauron sent him a small force of Orcs as protection and labour so they could get Isengard's industry up and running quickly.

This is assumed.

There definitely would have had to be some Uruks at least involved to control the Orc labourers because they only obeyed Sauron, RingWraiths, Trolls and their own commanders (Uruks).

Uruk = Orc = Goblin. No differentiation between them.

[Beregond]

Uruk = Orc = Goblin. No differentiation between them.

The Uruk-hai were a new breed of Orcs that appeared during the Third Age.
They were faster than normal Orcs and could travel during the day without being weakened. They were not only faster but smarter, stronger and larger, though some were still shorter than Men.
Tolkien Gateway.

I'm too lazy right now to search for Tolkien quotes

[Juli]

If Saruon had more and better furnaces, he would have been able to outfit his armies with very good quality iron plate army very quickly. So quickly in fact this he would have been able to overrun Gondor years earlier

Actually, plate armour was not found a lot in Middle Earth. In fact, I am not sure if there was such thing as plate armour in ME. I have The Silmarillion, The Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy, so maybe plate armour is mentioned in some book I haven´t got

All mentions of armour in LOTR refer to chain mail only. The Elves, the dwarves, men, orcs, everybody used chain mail, so... dunno

And Gondor would not have been overrun earlier if Sauron had had better furnaces, for the following reasons:

1. The armies of Mordor were already well equiped and, as mentioned before, maybe there was no such thing as plate mail in ME
2. Anyways, it was not Sauron´s intention to destroy Gondor, at least until year 3019 of the Third Age
3. The Gondorians, even if they were decaying and all that, were still brave men, and they had resources to put up a fight against Mordor (again, until 3019 TA, when the kingdom was practically exhausted and Sauron unleashed his armies upon them). And they had powerful men like Boromir, Faramir and the knights of Dol Amroth to lead them even in the darkest of hours
4. Denethor had the Palantir. That gave him quite an important strategic advantage, because he could detect an attacking host from his White Tower and dispatch troops to deal with the threat

[trueblaze]

From what I can tell goblins, orcs, and uruks seem to be just different variations of the same race, kind of like asian, african, hyspanic, ect ect for us humans. In the movie at least, there do apear to be some slight differences. From what I can tell, these apear to be the differences:

Goblins: Typically spend most of their lives underground. Hence they tend to be smaller and thinner which is more advantagus for crawling around small caverns. They however also seem to be able to crawl over surfaces easier than there breatheren (walls and ceilings). They also seem to have a sort of side hope type running due to there bow leggedness.

Orcs: Tend to live outside just as often if not more so than in caves, or they live in Mordor itself where it's almost always dark out. There a bit taller and brauder than goblins, but probably lack the wall crawling skills. When the run they actully seem to run more like humans do though still somewhat bow legged themselves.

Uruks: They simply seem to be bigger and stronger Orcs. They were an attempt by Souron to create a perfect orc species, however they still contain many of many of the Orc's general weaknesses.

Now as for the new species: Saruman's Uruk Hai, Goblin-men, Half-Orcs, my guess would be there all one in the same. However, it is possible that they could be different species if you think of it this way:

Saruman wanted to create a new perfect species of orc. So where would he go to first? His closest and most plentyful source, the Orcs of the Misty Mountains. However most of them were the smaller goblin like orcs, so the best he could do with them would be to exparament on what breeding and magics were needed, thus the Goblin-men. Once he figured out that he'd move onto the larger more powerful Orcs to perfect the cross breading, hence the Half-Orcs. Once he perfected his goal, he would then want to make sure only the strongest of the orcs were used in the creations. Hence he would then use the less plentyful Uruks to create his final creations: The "fighting" Uruk Hai.

As for how he interbread the species...I'm sure it probably involved lots of magic and lots of alcohal . "You want me to do what to that thing. Arggggg....BARTENDER I"M GANNA NEED A WHOLE CASE OF EVERCLEAR OVER HERE...MAKE IT TWO."

[Vaz]

The Uruk-hai were a new breed of Orcs that appeared during the Third Age.
They were faster than normal Orcs and could travel during the day without being weakened. They were not only faster but smarter, stronger and larger, though some were still shorter than Men.
Tolkien Gateway.

I'm too lazy right now to search for Tolkien quotes

Noone specified Uruk Hai. So instead -