Disturbing News from CA, BAI...

[WarnerVH]

Just read their blog about the BAI for ETW and it leaves a disturbing ring in my ears that they have just admitted that they have obvious errors in the BAI. It's disturbing because after they have admitted they have errors they also state that they have not made a decision to go back and fix the coding for Empire Total War. If this is true they have admitted to giving a program to the general public that does not work and will not fix. And they then made an "expansion" and other Downloadable content for the game and further made income from a game they know was broken and may not fix to a basic level of playability.

Here's their blog http://blogs.sega.com/totalwar/2009/...-mike-simpson/

Tuesday Nov 10, 2009
Battle AI - By Mike Simpson

Just before the end of Empire the lead Battle AI programmer left CA to return to his family up north. Unfortunately, thanks to Mr Wilberforce’s efforts 200 years ago we couldn’t stop him. It left us with a battle AI, which at that stage, struggled to beat good players in a fair fight, and was pretty much at the mercy of great players, even with a level of handicap (I call it cheating) that is all too obvious.
Since then we’ve had our most talented programmers pick up where the deserter left off, but becoming the master of a chunk of code that took almost three years to write is not an instant thing. In the updates so far we’ve got rid of some of the worst behaviours that are close to the surface, and have started to tackle deeper issues like unstable decision loops that cause the AI to mill around rather than hold its line and fire. We’re also starting to add new behaviours, for example taking better advantage of hilly terrain. These improvements take the code further than we’ve been able before and will be there for Napoleon but we’re not sure yet whether we’ll be able to reverse them back in to Empire in a future update - the code has moved on. If we can we will.
Our overall aim with the improvements is first to get rid of any erratic behaviour, second to improve general performance to the point where the obvious handicaps can be removed, and then to add a greater variety of ’smart’ behaviours. None of these have a fixed finish line - it’s a process of continual improvement, and each game will get AI better than the last one. Including Napoleon.
Progress is frustratingly slow but thankfully rewriting the Rome: Total War codebase has left us with a clean codebase that is easier to work on, and an architecture that has way more potential than Rome’s. The main difference is the shift to a goal oriented planning system rather than a static system that has no long term plans. This has yet to fully pay off. But it will. When it does I’ll talk about it again.
Battle AI is not rocket science - its way, way harder than that. It’s so difficult that very few strategy games attempt it. Most use simple scripts of canned behaviour that fire when you bump in to them, and very simple swarming behaviours. They’re limited, and are “gamey” rather than real world. What I mean by that is that the tactics you use to beat them are something that you have to learn for each game or sometimes each scenario/level, and bear no relation to reality. What we strive for is a game where real world tactics actually work. It’s not the easiest path to take, but it is the most rewarding.
If you’re a genius C++ programmer, you understand exactly how difficult this problem is, but still think it’s the most interesting code problem in the world, apply for a job. We’ll find space for you.

Basically no modding from the modding community will give an acceptable AI as they will be masking a broken AI if CA does not bring the BAI up to a basic level. I don't like that they state they may or may not fix the BAI for ETW. So we all have a decission to make when NTW comes out. Will we buy another program and risk no support if CA makes a mistake and leave us stuck with the bill.

I've loved the TW series and have been generally satisfied with their programs until ETW. I once purchased games from CA simply because they had CA on the box. Now I'm cautious at best. I would hope that they would offer some amends for the thousands that bought ETW and Warpath to gain our confidence back in them. I'm not asking for a free game here, it could be releasing SDK tools for the modding community to fix these problems in ETW OR something similar. Only time can tell...

[moopere]

I understand fully the frustration that this brings. A lot of the frustration is still bubbling away because of the state of the game when it was released too. Many of us are feeling pretty burned and as such we're super sensitive to even the slightest hint of CA not coming up with the goods on their promises.

However, BAI and even CAI is something I personally am willing to cut them some slack on. No-one in the world has put together a believable AI for any consumer product. Even in research labs smart people can punch holes through the best computer AI there is. Its just not reasonable for us to think CA was ever going to produce a viable AI opponent in a couple of years and be able to sell it to us for 100 bucks a pop. It may have been slightly better in release 1.3 or 1.4 compared to 1.5 but it was still pretty horrible.

To my mind they should really be focussing on the MP campaign and putting the tools in place to make MP a more satisfying and viable alternative. Even if CA pulled an amaizing rabbit out of the hat on BAI it still won't give you 1% of the challenge that a human opponent will. At the moment, and for the longest time, TW MP games have been challenged by a complete lack of context which leads to a fairly lacklustre game. With the promise of an MP campaign however all this changes and ETW could easily become the biggest online musket era wargame there has ever been with a long life going into the future - surely relatively small but continuous cashflow spanning years is exactly what any business wants?

Moopere

[Hardrada992]

However, BAI and even CAI is something I personally am willing to cut them some slack on. No-one in the world has put together a believable AI for any consumer product. Even in research labs smart people can punch holes through the best computer AI there is. Its just not reasonable for us to think CA was ever going to produce a viable AI opponent in a couple of years and be able to sell it to us for 100 bucks a pop. It may have been slightly better in release 1.3 or 1.4 compared to 1.5 but it was still pretty horrible.

Sure, coding AI must be hard. Quite hard. But CA still admits here that the AI was unfinished but they released it anyway, and might be able to fix it.

Remember MTW2? How the enemy advanced as a group? In a line right up to your battle line? How hard was that? Why can't the ETW AI do the same, but instead of going right up to melee they instead stop at musket range and exchange fire? Like archers did? Archers did this WITH NO PROBLEM. No chicken dance. No "decision loops." Clearly they were able to do it right before. The fact that they released it this way is absurd.

And sure, it's not just CA's fault as they were certainly pressured be Sega to release ETW quickly. It's just that the BAI is so god awfully terrible I can't see how anyone in their right mind could honestly release the game in the state it was (and largely still is) in.

ARGH.

[moopere]

Yep, fair enough. I guess I may have just given up on BAI and don't let it bother me any more. If we're discussing the difference between bad and horrible then yes I guess the BAI right now is horrible and it would be pretty nice if they could fix it so it was only _bad_ hehe. I still believe that human opponents are your only realistic chance of a decent game. I'm pretty upset that the long delayed and long promised MP campaign still hasn't arrived. For ETW it was only ever going to be an MP campaign _beta_ yet its still not here.... arrghh

Moopere

[Serenissima]

While I saw this coming, I'm also an enabling fool, and was when I bought Empire, too.

Unfortunately, that means that I'll probably end up getting Napoleon as well, and continuing to enable CA to think that they've got me as a satisfied customer... or at least enabling them to think, as they seem to, that we're just an enormous cash-source they can release any nonsense to.

[Sol Invictus]

Yeah, I don't understand why they can't make the AI simply form a Line, advance toward the enemy when attacking or stand still when on defense and simply return fire while guarding the flanks with Cavalry. No fancy maneuvering or brilliant tactics required. Just form a damn line and attempt to maintain it. After exchnging fire for a few minutes then possibly attempt to close for melee. Just doing that would greatly improve the AI.

[WarnerVH]

It's not that the game has faulty AI that bad. I just wish they would have tried to balance the BAI to a point that the units behave like 18 century infantry shooting at their opponents rather than medieval foot soldiers charging to the melee. They should fix the BAI to a level that it can handle large battles correctly.

I must admit though. I've been playing the campaign and I have wondered if there are two or three BAI's that work off of a single large "script" (defensive, offensive, siege etc) that it tailors to the type of battle it is playing against the enemy player. I have seen many battles in campaign where the AI will set back and shoot it out with you. Infact many times they shoot out with your before they charge in. I don't know how many have noticed; but if you are playing the AI in campaign in a battle and you take a unit up to close in melee the AI unit will sometimes avoid combat all together. It is weird because I've also seen the AI charge into melee including the artillery.

It just erks me that they have admitted they may or maynot fix what is wrong with the BAI. I used to love the custom battles because I could create some great scenarios to play and now I can load the AI with 24 pound artillery and they will charge half the units into my ranks. The BAI is so quirky. True it will never be able to think the way a player can. If it does resemble that it is only a script it is acting upon to look like it is thinking anyhows. Maybe they need to ask Deep Blue how it plays chess and then create a BAI and CAI from his notes. I do need to play some MP though with everybody. I just would have to unload and load about three different versions of ETW to play. Wish we could go back to pre STEAM. I had about three different versions of M2TW installed on my PC ready to role, one for online play, and two different modded versions each with their own submods and the like.

Will I buy NTW? Probably They still have the fact they have changed the way Strategy games are played since Shogun TW.

Just found the article interesting as they seem to admit a broken game shell.

Cheers!

[Serenissima]

My favourite action from the BAI is still the 'FLAAAAAANKKKKKKKKKKK!' behaviour, which makes them run around you in circles endlessly, trying to 'flank' you, if you're facing them. Of course, any sensible player simply wheels to face them... causing the AI to start running around you again, refusing to even shoot at you or come in range to be shot at unless you present them a nice flank or rear for them to attack.

[moopere]

I do need to play some MP though with everybody. I just would have to unload and load about three different versions of ETW to play. Wish we could go back to pre STEAM. I had about three different versions of M2TW installed on my PC ready to role, one for online play, and two different modded versions each with their own submods and the like.

Yes this was pretty convenient in the older games. You can get close though with the new TROM installer. It uses a batch file to fire up the game and doesn't modify your game launch script - therefore you can flip between TROM and vanilla simply by choosing one icon over the other one. With a bit of thought we should be able to change the script to pull in the TROM loc file before launching the game and deleting it afterwards. This type of format, if it were adopted by all mods out there, would make life much easier for folks who play several different mods.

As for MP. The TROM MP community is growing by leaps and bounds. Don't be shy, more players makes for a merrier time and we're all still learning the mod in MP so its a great time to join:

- Clean your ETW back to vanilla
- Use the special MP TROM installer here: http://nwg.freeforums.org/trom-the-r...ible-t819.html
- Meet us here: steam://friends/joinchat/103582791430303840 after 8pm GMT

Cheers, Moopere

[Beastro]

To my mind they should really be focussing on the MP campaign and putting the tools in place to make MP a more satisfying and viable alternative. Even if CA pulled an amaizing rabbit out of the hat on BAI it still won't give you 1% of the challenge that a human opponent will. At the moment, and for the longest time, TW MP games have been challenged by a complete lack of context which leads to a fairly lacklustre game. With the promise of an MP campaign however all this changes and ETW could easily become the biggest online musket era wargame there has ever been with a long life going into the future - surely relatively small but continuous cashflow spanning years is exactly what any business wants?

I fail to see how a MP campaign will ease this issue.

All it will mean is a bunch of players carving the world up easy before moving onto each other sooner, or players working together to beat up the AI even faster than a single player already does.

This kinda crap makes me feel like just pirating games for a few months before buying them so I know full well if they're lemons or not.

Atm, this issue isn't as big a problem for me as the corrupted save bug which has rendered one game unplayable so far.

I'm sure ETW will turn around in the end but having the game functional a year after release or more isn't a good way to sell products..... that is, if they even fix this at all and don't just abandon it for the next TW like Firaxis did with CivIII.

[roy34543]

Well. I hope people will at least realize that the AI before ETW was also crap, so its not actually such a big deal.

[moopere]

I fail to see how a MP campaign will ease this issue.

All it will mean is a bunch of players carving the world up easy before moving onto each other sooner, or players working together to beat up the AI even faster than a single player already does.

I'm assuming, as has been rumoured, that the human players will be able to play out battles on the computers behalf. So, if you are France and I'm Britain and you attack Prussia I'll be 'asked', in some way, if I wish to play out battles on behalf of Prussia. If this turns out not to be the case then I agree with you, it won't make any difference at all.

Regards, Moopere

[Beastro]

I'm assuming, as has been rumoured, that the human players will be able to play out battles on the computers behalf. So, if you are France and I'm Britain and you attack Prussia I'll be 'asked', in some way, if I wish to play out battles on behalf of Prussia. If this turns out not to be the case then I agree with you, it won't make any difference at all.

Regards, Moopere

Ok, that might be something.

Never heard of it before in a game so I never thought of anyhting like it.

Well. I hope people will at least realize that the AI before ETW was also crap, so its not actually such a big deal.

Barring massive leg ups, AIs always have been.

I think the key issue was in previous games melee was the center role of fighting, fighting with mass ranged weapons allows for far great flexibility which the AI can't cope with and the player can't help but exploit.

[Johan217]

It may have been slightly better in release 1.3 or 1.4 compared to 1.5 but it was still pretty horrible.

But this is exactly the problem. Battle AI was reasonably good with 1.3 patch, but 1.4 and 1.5 introduced a bug, probably related to AI formation behaviour, that totally messes up the battles. This is simply inexcusable.

[BunnyPoopCereal]

You guys want a challenge so great that you will lose? Try SPQR mod. The AI in it is fantastic, always flanks and charges with full force, it's amazing.

[Beastro]

Is that a ETW mod?

Even if, we all love the 18th Century here, being able to play Rome in Antiquity isn't what we're looking for.

Nonetheless, is there anyway that AI mods in it could be xfered and expanded to allow ranged fire?

[WarnerVH]

Is that a ETW mod?

Even if, we all love the 18th Century here, being able to play Rome in Antiquity isn't what we're looking for.

Nonetheless, is there anyway that AI mods in it could be xfered and expanded to allow ranged fire?

It's actually a Rome Total War mod. And a Napoleonic mod was tried by The Lordz Modding Collective; but did not implement a single player game because the AI was not geared for such in the age of rifles. It was only a MP mod; but VERY popular to this day can still be played. BUT, the BAI will not work right. It behaves much like ETW 1.5 with the melee bug. And if you can get the AI to shoot it out withyou they will all skirmish in loose formation. SO.... it's only a VERY WELL MADE MP MOD by the collective. Here are a few clips of the game.

[Edax]

I think if you can't get a compedent AI working, instead, have the AI act like an arrogent 18 century general of the day. There was also some style in which they fought, and was rarely the smartest way to fight. All the AI would need to do is march up in a certain formation depending on the units, and march to the enemy until musket range was achived. Then it's in gods hands who wins. Oh, as for the calvery, harass and flank! The AI use to do that oh so well before. To the point of being annoying that they have moved calvery behind your army, and you have to keep an eye on them at all times.

[Serenissima]

I think much of the problem is we can't mod the AI at all, to make it good OR to make it arrogant and 18th-century in style...

[Johan217]

I think if you can't get a compedent AI working, instead, have the AI act like an arrogent 18 century general of the day. There was also some style in which they fought, and was rarely the smartest way to fight. All the AI would need to do is march up in a certain formation depending on the units, and march to the enemy until musket range was achived. Then it's in gods hands who wins. Oh, as for the calvery, harass and flank! The AI use to do that oh so well before. To the point of being annoying that they have moved calvery behind your army, and you have to keep an eye on them at all times.

I would already be very happy if this could be achieved. Many modders have been trying to improve the AI behaviour since the 1.4 patch, but I am not hopeful.

I've tried many fixes suggested by Darth and others, tried out various combinations of stats values, NEVER could I see a consistent improvement. As far as I am concerned the single player land battles part of ETW is dead and I am not going to bother looking for solutions anymore.