Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Is the Japanese system better?

  1. #1
    IronBrig4's Avatar Good Matey
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    College Station, TX
    Posts
    6,423

    Default Is the Japanese system better?

    I've been thinking on this for some time, and I would have to say "yes." I think that the Japanese economic and social system beats American society in most respects. I won't deny that there are problems in Japan, but they're not nearly as bad as here. In less than two decades, Japan transitioned from a feudal society into a modern nation. It was flattened in WW2, but is now one of the wealthiest nations (and I will give credit to the US for providing the nest egg).

    Consider for a moment that the recession has affected the Japanese economy a lot more than ours. Their stocks collapsed in the last 1990's, but there are very few layoffs. There was an icebreaking vessel division that almost went under. The corporation gave them 10 years to find a profitable program. After several misses, that division started making indoor beaches and found its niche. Not ONE SINGLE employee was laid off. In the US, most of the lower-level employees would have been let go. The Japanese believe in skilled, experienced workers who are proud of their job, rather than in outsourcing everything to save money. They also have a huge middle-class that is continuing to expand.

    In America, hundreds of thousands of people were axed. My Dad has a master's degree (he's a consultant), but he hasn't found skilled employment in months. I know people who just got out of the military, and they'll probably have to re-enlist because the only place that's hiring is McDonald's. America has replaced its engineers and scientists with burger flippers and Wal-Mart greeters. In another 30 years, there might not even be a middle-class in America. The rich get richer while the poor remain poor. After I get my own master's, I will try to emigrate to South Africa or Australia. I believe my skills will actually be appreciated there.

    Part of this can be attributed to the Ministry of International Trade and Industry (MITI). Under MITI's guidance, Nippon Steel became the second-biggest steel producer in the world. It also enabled the Japanese color TV industry to annihilate its American counterpart (dumping, I know). MITI isn't socialist; it merely steers the private companies to a common goal. If America had something like MITI, we'd probably not be in such a fix. It basically would have told the fat cats, "No, you can't outsource your entire tech support division to India. If you do that, thousands of Americans will be out of a job. So what if you can't buy your fifth summer house?"

    That brings up another point. Japanese CEO's make only about 30 times the salary of a new employee. In America, CEO's award themselves (and their frat brothers/golf buddies/polo team) OBSCENE sums of money. I think the American CEO typically makes 200! times the starting salary. Talk about avarice. Yes, I am aware that corporate crime exists in Japan, and that political scandals happen often. But it's always reported. Enron, Tyco, and Worldcom were only reported because they were so blatant.

    Do we have any Japanese board members who can contribute first-hand experience? I would love to live in Japan, if it wasn't for the fact that a.) I don't speak Japanese, and b.) I'm a foreign devil.

  2. #2

    Default

    Well i'm not an expert on Japan or anything, so my opinion is nothing more than personal beliefs, but i think they are, because in japan there are rules/traditions that were passed from generations to generations.So maybe that's why Japan has economic and social prosperity.
    Manstein16 This is especially for you and your bill.

  3. #3
    IronBrig4's Avatar Good Matey
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    College Station, TX
    Posts
    6,423

    Default

    I would strongly suggest picking up a copy of "Confucius Lives Next Door." The author wrote about his experiences living in Japan and travelling to Singapore, China, and Malaysia. He suggests that adherence to Confucianism has enabled Japan to progress, without the human wreckage associated with Western capitalism.

  4. #4
    Count of Montesano's Avatar Civitate
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    2,259

    Default

    IronBrig, you bring up some good points about the Japanese economic system. But after living there for 3 years, it also has a lot of downsides that I wouldn't want to have to put up with.

    1. A rigid education system where your entire success in life is decided on the day you take the college exam. No second chance, no going back to school as an older adult (which is what I've been able to do). No switching from blue collar to white collar, a path that many of my friends have taken here in America. No moving up the corporate ladder if you didn't get into one of the best schools. Under this system, college drop-out Bill Gates would have been an abject failure.

    2. Companies do take care of you, but in Japan your job IS your life. Co-workers are expected to go to dinner and go party every night till midnight. Your weekends are all about golf parties and company functions.
    Your boss may only make 10 percent more than you, but you must bow and treat him like a god. Even in off-hours you have to pour his drinks.

    3. Fewer opportunities for women and minorities. The dirty little secret about Japan's low unemployment are women are forced out of the system to raise kids. Remember, dads are never at home because of the corporate culture. The flip side though is Japan offers living wages, so women can nurture the family. Maybe that is a social improvement on America, where kids are raised on Grand Theft Auto as both parents hold down 60 hour jobs. Japan, like America, is supported by cheap labor from India and southeast Asia. These immigrant workers have few rights and benefits, though they probably make more money than Mexicans in California or Texas.

    4. Living in a Confuscian society means giving up much of your freedom until you are an elder. Forget about having the good life at a relatively young age. Your marriage will most likely still be arranged at the appropriate age (24-27). My wife and I are in our early 30s and we own a house; many young Japanese couples will probably never own a house until their parents die. Your promotions are based on seniority, rarely on merit. Did I mention it is considered socially appropriate for your parents and in-laws to butt into your financial and household decisions, even your sex life. All families do this I realize, but in America you can tell them to back off. The whole Confuscian tradition which has driven Japan's success comes as a total package.

    But I agree with you, I would like the American government to have a public policy that rewards companies that look after American interests and punishes companies that outsource all their work or willfully drive up the trade imbalance (cough, Walmart, cough).

    Other things I'd love to see America adopt from Japan

    1. Beer machines
    2. Ninjas
    3. Really good cartoons for adults
    4. Better electronics, video games
    5. An entertainment system where "idols" disappear after about 6 months to a year in the limelight, instead of hanging around for years and years after they've dried up

  5. #5
    IronBrig4's Avatar Good Matey
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    College Station, TX
    Posts
    6,423

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Count of Montesano
    Other things I'd love to see America adopt from Japan

    1. Beer machines
    2. Ninjas
    3. Really good cartoons for adults
    4. Better electronics, video games
    5. An entertainment system where "idols" disappear after about 6 months to a year in the limelight, instead of hanging around for years and years after they've dried up
    Don't forget packs of used schoolgirl panties.

    I also read that the Japanese freak out if you kiss your gf/wife in public. I understand why. They believe that you're imposing on anybody who happens to be in the area. My Mom's Thai, and so she hates seeing any public display of affection (excepting family).

    Edit: I forgot to add that it's a myth that Japanese students commit suicide all the time. The teen suicide rate is roughly the same as America's. But the teen murder rate is 500 times less.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    I would strongly suggest picking up a copy of "Confucius Lives Next Door." The author wrote about his experiences living in Japan and travelling to Singapore, China, and Malaysia. He suggests that adherence to Confucianism has enabled Japan to progress, without the human wreckage associated with Western capitalism.
    Is this after the introduction of western-style democracy and capitalism to Japan after their defeat in the Second World War? And human wreckage compared to where? Marxist Africa? How has Confucianism helped China? I'd bet a dose of freedom would help it a lot more. Actually, it was the United States forcing them to open up that enabled them to progress.

  7. #7
    Libertus
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Lynchburg, VA
    Posts
    69

    Default

    The fact that it was the US who opened up "feudal" Japan to "modern" culture doesn't change the fact that they are (IMHO) catching up/surpassing the US in so-called Western economics.

  8. #8
    Count of Montesano's Avatar Civitate
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    2,259

    Default

    IronBrig, I tried to send you a e-mail, but couldn't. I wanted to ask where are you living in Japan? Are you in the military there?

    I was stationed at Camp Zama from 97-99.

  9. #9
    IronBrig4's Avatar Good Matey
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    College Station, TX
    Posts
    6,423

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Count of Montesano
    IronBrig, I tried to send you a e-mail, but couldn't. I wanted to ask where are you living in Japan? Are you in the military there?

    I was stationed at Camp Zama from 97-99.
    I don't live in Japan, and have never been there. Most of my time overseas was spent in the Middle East. But I would dearly like to visit Japan, as I have many Japanese friends.

    @Tim
    The author writes about how East Asia has blended Western capitalism with Confucian values. It seems like Japanese companies have a "sink or swim together" attitude, compared to the American "look out for number one" business practices. 90% of Japanese view themselves as middle-class, as opposed to 60% of Americans. And although China still has hundreds of millions who live below the poverty line, it also has the biggest middle class in the world.

    By "human wreckage", I'm talking about the hundreds of thousands (sometimes millions) of Americans who are laid off every time there's a recession. People are let go after decades of loyal service, while the bloated CEO's play golf and use their recently laid off workers' salaries to give themselves bonuses. Yes, that same crap happens in Japan, but it's not as bad as what happens in America.

    By progress in China, are you referring to the Open Door policy? It only benefited the Western powers, Japan, and a select few port cities; most of the rest of China was run by warlords. China didn't start to become modern until the Soviets gave it aid, and even then at a tremendous human cost. If you look at Chinese history, from the Shang kings until today, every bit of progress came at the cost of millions of lives.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim
    Is this after the introduction of western-style democracy and capitalism to Japan after their defeat in the Second World War? And human wreckage compared to where? Marxist Africa? How has Confucianism helped China? I'd bet a dose of freedom would help it a lot more. Actually, it was the United States forcing them to open up that enabled them to progress.
    Introduction of democracy is an error. Japanese already had formed similar representative democracy they have today in their earlier history. I believe this was known as Meiji era. It became corrupted however and military was able to take over.


    As for "opening" Japan (response to another writer) I would say that it had already taken place earlier by portugese and dutch traders who were first to introduce gunpowder based weapons to japanese society.


    Everyone is warhero, genius and millionaire in Internet, so don't be surprised that I'm not impressed.

  11. #11
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default

    Japanese system is not applicable to westerners. A lot of people would end committing suicide if forced into such a change of perspective. This thread implies ignorance of the deep differences between western and eastern cultures.

  12. #12
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    15,653

    Default

    I beleive the Japanese system is better than the US system, but not better than the Danish system for example.
    I think the major reason the Japanese are rich is because they work realy hard.
    But I also beleive well-being is more imporant than wealth.
    Danish people aren't the richest in the world, but they are the happiest.
    And I think the Japanese are very unhappy.



  13. #13
    IronBrig4's Avatar Good Matey
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    College Station, TX
    Posts
    6,423

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    Japanese system is not applicable to westerners. A lot of people would end committing suicide if forced into such a change of perspective. This thread implies ignorance of the deep differences between western and eastern cultures.
    Of course there'd be problems if American society changed like this overnight. But Japan went through a dramatic transformation as well. Remember that before Meiji, the Japanese only tolerated a select few Dutch traders at Nagasaki. The Tokugawa shogunate also had a policy of killing shipwrecked sailors of any nation. Perry's expedition (and the American/British/French bombardment of Choshu) merely convinced the Japanese to modernize their military. There were problems, such as the Satsuma Revolt, but the fact is that within 10 years, every facet of administration and government had changed. America could do something like that.

  14. #14
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default

    Of course, and maybe they should have an emperor and worship their ancestors.

  15. #15
    IronBrig4's Avatar Good Matey
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    College Station, TX
    Posts
    6,423

    Default

    @Ummon

    The Japanese must be doing something right. The same Confucian values are taught in schools. Maybe those conservative stuffed shirts in America have a point; teaching moral values in school might reduce crime. That way, you won't have jackass parents teaching their kids to be little jackasses.

    Anyways, back to the economy. I had a sociology textbook that made analogies between economies and gas stations. Very cute.

    The "Japanese" gas station: Gas is five dollars a gallon, but you are always greeted by a group of smiling attendants in immaculate uniforms. They pump your gas, clean off your windshield, check your oil, and even give you that pine tree air freshener. They wave goodbye as you drive off.

    The "American" gas station: Gas is one dollar a gallon, but you have to pump your own gas. Anything else is extra. The attendant is impatient and hates being asked for help. As you put money into the pump, you have to watch for punks who try to steal your tires.

    The "Third World" gas station: Gas is 50 cents a gallon. The attendants are illiterate Filipinos, and the station is owned by a Swiss manager who's never there.

    The "Communist" gas station: Gas is 30 cents a gallon, but there is no gas. Although there are attendants on payroll, they're never there because they have jobs associated with the black market. They just stop by every two weeks to pick up their paychecks.

  16. #16
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default

    No really, I am for Zen monastries all over the place. Sincerely.

    Gas stations, sadly, are not stand-alone products. A culture is not an atomizeable item. You either buy the whole package, or do not buy anything.
    Last edited by Ummon; August 21, 2005 at 07:09 AM.

  17. #17
    IronBrig4's Avatar Good Matey
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    College Station, TX
    Posts
    6,423

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik
    I beleive the Japanese system is better than the US system, but not better than the Danish system for example.
    I think the major reason the Japanese are rich is because they work realy hard.
    But I also beleive well-being is more imporant than wealth.
    Danish people aren't the richest in the world, but they are the happiest.
    And I think the Japanese are very unhappy.
    I knew this one Danish girl. She was an exchange student in my dorm. She was nice, smart, and freakin' HOT. If most Danish girls are like that... hey, would you happen to know the requirements to emigrate to Denmark?

    Edit: I don't think that American society is a very happy one. Everything is about competition and having cooler stuff than your neighbor. Having lived overseas, my family was thankfully unaffected by that. I suppose that makes us "bad" American citizens.

    There's this one commercial about a guy who owns a huge house, swimming pool, SUV, and is part of a country club. He's smiling all through the advertisement, but then he says, "I'm in debt up to my eyeballs. I can barely pay my finance charges. Somebody help me."

  18. #18
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default

    No society is a happy society, but men can still manage to be happy men, in any society. It's not a matter of external solutions, but internal ones.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •