Question about unit costs

[dunty12]

Hey, first off let me say that XC is my favorite mod b/c I've always came back to it mostly b/c my pc is old and XC runs nice and smooth with no crashes and it's constantly updated so I'm thankful for that. I'm just curious when I started an Armenia campaign the unit costs were different like i noticed the regular cheap eastern spearmen that used to be like 350 or something are now 550 with a high upkeep of 275 and the horse archers are only 504 ? why is is such a weird uneven number? then the light calvery is a whopping 1500 denari just for light javvlin calvery why so expensive? All in all it's a nice mod =)

[CaesarVincens]

The entire battle system was recently overhauled, and part of that was unit costs. So now, most units are much more expensive. Zarax, as the architect of this, can explain any more specific questions you might have.

[Zarax]

The system has been revised along these lines:

1) link unit upkeep to city level income in order to avoid stack and elite spamming
2) basing unit cost on its equipment
3) giving some factions a production bias to help them focus on their historical mainstay units.

You can find most system details (it's no secret) inside EDU, where everything is explained.
Basically, when you're paying around 1500 for light cavalry the system takes account of this:

1) 1 turn worth of upkeep
2) cost of the horse
3) cost of equipment

The formula is basically summed up in this:
recruitment cost = upkeep + equipment
cavalry cost = upkeep + (mount + equipment)/2 (this is because cavalry units are half the size of infantry ones)

Note that the system is likely to get minor revisions in the future in order to accommodate game balancing issues but the core is what you already see.

[dunty12]

oh ok i see thats cool so why are the eastern spearmen more money than horse archers I thought the horses would cost more? so you still hav to pay upkeep wen you keep your units in the city wall?

[Zarax]

Eastern spearmen are 3 times the size of a basic horse archer unit.
Man per man horse archers are much more expensive than them.

[Anakarsis]

One thing: in vanilla, i often use peasants to move populations form one settlement to another. This does not seem very anti-historic to me....it is not possible to have some low quality unit at rather low cost to fullfil this role?

[Zarax]

It would have lots of potential in screwing up unit balance...
I'll see if I can come up with alternative solutions (like making farms destroyable)...

[CaesarVincens]

Use the garrison units, those have the largest size and cost very little. There is no need for anything more than that.

[Andalus]

I'll see if I can come up with alternative solutions (like making farms destroyable)...

That is easy enough, you just remove the hinterland_ bit, IIRC.

[Zarax]

Yes it is, the matter here is if it will be implemented or not.

[Kylan271]

I did this for hinterland,all,but you have to change all the files or screws up the game,ie descr_start,EDB..

For population moving and low cost garrison,I use peltast-greek factions,and change cas to use spear(light spear)rather than javelin,and bingo..^_* . Salvor Hardin helped on this. Game uses them,but they are better than peasant spamming as in vanilla.

Jack Lusted used a stat cost calculator in his mod which i sort of figured. Main stress point with me is working out stats for units? I don't know Zarax how you work yours? Example used is :Best attack&charge +total defence +morale/10 =cost. Missile=(attack x2+charge +secondary weapon+charge)/2(x2 as ranged & averaged as missiles run out of ammo) +defence +morale/10. Mounts are difficult,I am playing around with mass as a cost,and rider seperate cost-game only recognises the rider on horse for attack&defence.

I don't know if useful,but system I try to experiment with upkeep,is based on what I see in vanilla.

Unit settlement level+.5 x men x hps.
Village 1.5
Town 2.5
LT 3.5
C 4.5
LC 5.5
HC 6.5

60 Peasant upkeep at Village =90/turn
40 Roman cohorts at HC =260/turn
300 peasant mob as featured in RTW vanilla = 450/turn.
Mounts double,27 horse =54 men

Stessful to know exactly what is balanced in game,so hats of to you if you can work a good system here.

[Zarax]

EDU stat balancing system is pretty much explained at the start of the file.
I didn't use any fancy calculations for that, I started with typical low quality values and made gradual stats increments along with some cultural bias.

Costs are slightly more complex.
While upkeep is largely based on tax income per city level, the unit cost is made out of a perception of how much weight on the economy its manufacture would take, meaning that it doesn't matter if it was state or self provided as the cost of opportunity would be pretty much the same. To that unit upkeep and eventually cost of the mount is added.

While the system is still far from perfect as it requires some fine-tuning and bug fixing I feel that it gives a good proportion between your economy and the size of your army while discouraging the recruitment of excessive numbers of elites.

On the battlefield it's considerably slower than vanilla or XGM 1HP while faster than EB, allowing enough time to use battlefield tactics while keeping the duration and number of them acceptable.
Its success or failure will only be determined by testing and player feedback, although I feel the game gives a reasonable challenge on M while encouraging the nurturing of your generals.

BTW, if you are a modeler/skinner we could surely use a hand in that department if you're interested

[Kylan271]

I regret I am no modder or skinner,I just tweak existing models-I am allowed Variag,SoR,RTR etc models,fix missing gloss and try to balance the game as best as I can. I am working on TE gold Alex porting now and trying to fix some models for Salvor Hardin in FFRI Mod. The mod I am working on is a test base to find ideas for the community,thus I mentioned what I found above.

Some model results are here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=308828

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=291394

I don't know if this is helpful??? I have to look at your game to see more your system of stats etc.

[Zarax]

That looks nice, although it looks like you've got a lot of authorizations to obtain.
As I said before, our stat and cost system should be mostly available in the top part of XC EDU.