Phalangarii?!

**legio_XX** · October 30, 2009, 05:17 PM

So I'm reading roman legionary 161-284 and in the book they talk about legions trained like legions and phalanx man and used during a Persian wAr 231-33 to great success. I was wondering if you plan to add a phalanx unit for the Romans in the east? That would be sweet!

**SpartanCommando** · November 01, 2009, 11:13 AM

So those legions were Legionaire/phalanx cross trained unit? That would be perfect for how I like to fight! I always end up with alot of my guys dead because I use them to keep a line against better troops while I use my cavalry to attack them. I win, but almost all my guys end up dead that way!

**Pompeius Magnus** · November 01, 2009, 12:13 PM

That means a group of Phalangarii is indeed evidenced.
However, they fought in a close-knit formation. That means they simply stood very close to each other. Nothing else.
Normally, every soldier in the regular cohors had a certain space arround himself.
After fighting a certain time X (was depending on order of the Centurion) he was ordered to move back to the last row of the centuriae - and then the soldier in the second line moved forward and fought in the front row.
After some time he also had to move to the last row and now the third line was fighting in the first row ... and so on...

It is also wrong to connect the word phalanx always with the greece phalanx. Basically, a phalanx is "a group of people standing, or moving forward closely together". That's an official translation and definition by the Oxford Dictionary. It means roll, roller, battle-line, and I've even read the word tree-trunk.

And here we have the answer
The Phalangarii were front-line specialists. They were chosen from a normal centuriae and fought in a close formation (probably better equipped than the other legionaries) - meanwhile the ranks behind them harassed the enemy with arrows, javelins etc etc
They weren't a single unit.

And: they don't fought like a macedonian phalanx. It was more something like a heavy version of a front-line shieldwall.

The flexible offensive part of those soldiers was called Antesignani or later in the east Promachoi. The Roman Empire in the east deployed real Phalanx-troops (of macedonian origin) called Hoplitai (beside other unit-formations of the themes).
We have also tales from Procopius about a Phalanx formation - ordered by Belisarius during his sassanian-campaign - performed by Promachoi and Skutatoi (Antesignani+Scutati). But I fear it wasn't before the 6th and 7th century.

**legio_XX** · November 01, 2009, 02:29 PM

Thanks PM I needed to know I'm glad you still stop by the ibfd posts and your own mod which I can't wait to play!!! It also says the emporer named severus Alexander and they used long pikes.

(Alexander) made every effort to surpass the macedonion king. A phalanx of 30000 men whom he ordered to be called phalangarii and with these he won many victories in Persia. The phalanx was formed from six legions and was armed like other troops. (historia Augusta)

yet is said they used long pikes.
So now I'm counfused.

**Pompeius Magnus** · November 01, 2009, 02:48 PM

Hi Legio_XX

the front-row warriors (or better said legionaries) used of course longer spears or pikes. That's the reason why they were called Phalangarii, however, it wasn't a macedonian-like sarissa.

This kind of soldier was - as mentioned above - a specialist within the existing cohors.
But he had for sure NOT 30.000 soldiers equipped in that way.
If they speak about "Phalanx" they mean a bulk of soldiers, fighting close to each other.
"a group of people standing, or moving forward closely together"

Reports of tactics (with complete Legions fighting as macedonian phalanx) are simply not given and not true.
It seems it was the wishful thinking of this emperor to command an army like the original Alexander III.(the great) did.

Q:Is it possible that bigger detachments were equipped with long spear?
I would say yes, that's no question for me! The Romans were always masters of improvisation. However, not 30.000 strong.

Anyway, I will check your text-parts by myself (I have also those books). But I'm sure we will find a simple explanation.
Furthermore, we shouldn't forget that the Romans sometimes gave names to units which had nothing to do with the reality.
Let's take the example of the Lanciarii (also specialists within a cohors and no single unit).

And: once I've read the story about an emperor who deployed a troop called Spartari because he loved greece and its history. Long time the people thought that this Roman!! troop was fighting like the old Spartans - like Hoplites - (or something like that). Later evidences were found that even this troop was a simple cohors and was deployed of people living near the ancient city of Sparta.

**legio_XX** · November 01, 2009, 05:27 PM

Okay I understand now thank you lol that's a good point about Romans calling things what they are not.

**Pompeius Magnus** · November 01, 2009, 06:23 PM

ok my friend, meanwhile I have checked the Osprey book "imperial roman legionary AD 161-284"
To make is short: it says exactly the same as I mentioned above in post#3

The main-chapter on page 23 is called "elite legionaries". The sub-chapter page 27 explains the meaning of Phalangarii. - it suggests clearly that we are talking about single legionaries - about specialists.

But let us have a closer look. And I want give some further informations. I will colour my own comments in blue.

1. Osprey: [...] Dio records that emperor caracalla raised a phalanx of 15.000 recruited from macedonia and equipped in the ancient fashion with pike and linen curiass (77.7.1-2). This unit and a further phalanx of spartans is also reported by Herodian [...]
However, surviving gravestones of the spartan phalangites indicate that their "phalanx" was in reality a standard cohort of 500-1000 soldiers, and that the soldiers were equipped similarly to the legionaries with regular oval shields, medium length swords and even curiass of lorica segmentata[...]

>That means Caracallas phalanx (including his Spartans) was a pseudo-phalanx. Nothing else. They were equipped like all other legionaries in the empire. Osprey shows a gravestone on page 27.<

2. Osprey: [...] the real identity and function of Dio's macedonian phalanx is easily solved. Caracalla was embarking on a war against Pathia and wished to emulate the successes of Alexander the great[...] Caracalla consequently formed his own macedonian Phalanx. The "Macedonians" were probably praetorians and legionaries of the II Parthica. [...] The praetorians numbered 10.000 and II Parthica about 5.000. Their pikes either refer to thrusting spears with which some Roman soldiers had always been equipped, or 2 pila.[...]

>And here we see that his 15.000 macedonian phalangites were normal legionaries from the Legio Parthica and his own praetorians. The praetorians were used a lot of times as mobile field army. It was often the last reserve of the empire. That leds finally to the creation of the mobile cavalry reserve of Gallienus - this reform was continued by Diocletian - and finished by Constantine. But that's another chapter.<

3. Osprey: [...]Severus Alexander also had a "macedonian Phalanx" that served with success in his Persian war. We even know of a legionary of II Parthica who served in this war and was described on his own gravestoneas a phalangarius, but he did not fight in an antiquated Macedonian phalanx-type unit at all: [...] This Phalanx (from Severus Alexander) was formed from six legions and was armed like the other troops (hist.aug. 50.4-5). That the Phalanx was formed from whole legions must be doubted - the only complete legion present in the field army was II Parthica - but it proves that the "Phalanx" was simply a title applied to regular units fighting in the East wishing to emulate the glorious victories of Alexander the great.

**legio_XX** · November 01, 2009, 08:04 PM

Ohhhhh!! Okay I must have over looked some of that (got to eager to think straight lol) thanks PM by the way I showed my father your roman time frame post on the ibfd page, it shed alot of light for him thanks.

It seams to me the roman army did rarely a good job in the east when it came to infantry. Thus book points out alot of death on romes part.

**julianus heraclius** · November 01, 2009, 08:42 PM

Very interesting discussion. I have read the Osprey book in question and agree with PM on all points that he has raised. But unfortunately thwy fall into a timefram that would be outside of this mod.

Cheers

**legio_XX** · November 01, 2009, 09:03 PM

Well I ment it in a trickle down sort of way, Kinda of a "what if the units are still there". I

Agree with PM now to I didn't understand at first but now I do. I think what I like best about the fourms is the people and the talk...oh and the awesome games.

**SeniorBatavianHorse** · November 02, 2009, 12:39 AM

Guys, check out the latest edition of Ancient Warfare which covers the same ground and provides a quote from the tombstone of the phalangarius - PM's summation above is eerily accurate!

**legio_XX** · November 02, 2009, 01:42 AM

Wow I'm going to have to buy this! Good find I have never heard of these books

**Dave Strider** · December 26, 2009, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by legio_XX

Thanks PM I needed to know I'm glad you still stop by the ibfd posts and your own mod which I can't wait to play!!! It also says the emporer named severus Alexander and they used long pikes.

(Alexander) made every effort to surpass the macedonion king. A phalanx of 30000 men whom he ordered to be called phalangarii and with these he won many victories in Persia. The phalanx was formed from six legions and was armed like other troops. (historia Augusta)

yet is said they used long pikes.
So now I'm counfused.

Sorry to be necromancing but this caught my eye.

A general named Alexander using Phalanxes to Great Effect in the Middle East. Now, how does that sound familiar???

**legio_XX** · December 26, 2009, 12:05 PM

I have no idea what you mean...

That is most Likley why he called them that now that I think about it. He.may have wanted to look like a classic hero thinkIng "well I have the name I just need the army" ...just to trick people like me!!
SNEEKIE ROMAN!!!