Bandits and Raiding Parties...

[Evan MF]

Hi everyone,

I was brainstorming about support armies, and it occured to me there might be good way of lessening the need for support armies and the agressivness of the faction AIs, for the Orc factions.

The idea is that on 'good' regions that are bordered with regions of Mordor, OOTMM or Isengard, there should be bandit armies generating who would just 'raid' around causing financial strain, population death and other trouble on the region. These would be small stacks of orc or dunlenden raiding parties.

In this way raids can be represented more acurately, because they are more disorganised and not lead by a major faction. Therefore we can lessen the need for AI factions to generate small stacks that seem to attack cities aimlesly, inevitably to be defeated, making the game feel less tedious because there is a more diversified type of battle: raiding battles/skirmishes and major faction battles. This parallels well with the movies/books because for example, in Rohan there is alot of raiding skirmishes with warg raiders and Dunlenings but the climactic battle is fought at Helms Deeps which is against a much larger and well trained army.

Furthermore this can be developed into removing bandit 'raiding' stacks from regions that are allied with the orcs.

What do you think guys?

Evan

EDIT: this would require a script of some sort I think...

Here is a summary:

Scripts:

-A script Mordor, Isengard and OOTMM, possibly Rhun and Harad surrounding enemy regions to have an increase in bandit units generating that will contain typical raiding units (e.g. Small bands of Ocrs and Trolls, small bands of Cosairs, Wildmen of Dunlend etc...) that will move around the region obstrucing or attacking armies of that faction, and rarely cities, that would override the purpouse of AI spam-attacks...

-A script to limit Faction AI spam attacks and limit them to mainly large armies.

EFFECTS ON REGION:

-Reduce Income
-Reduce Population Growth
-Increase sabotage of buildings
-Increase in unrest and population unhappyness
-Increase in corruption of armies, generals (not the heros) and on rare occasions cities
-Attack your passing armies (frequently) or cities (rarely)
-Obstruct you large passing armies
-Obstruct major passages e.g. mountain passes, bridges

TYPICAL SCENARIO:

You are Rohan, and your regions border with Isengard.

Isengard declares war on you. You see that more Bandit stacks appear around your region. Your income decreases and population growth decreases. You decide to attack Isengard and head towards the river Isen. One of the bridges is blocked by a Bandit party of Dunlendings and a few Uruk Hai Warg Scouts. In order to cross the bridge you must defeat them. Once defeated you pass across towards Isengard and have a large memorable battle with Isengard.

Meanwhile, back in your region you decide that corruption has got too high and you needto put an end to the raiders. You put together a 1/2-3/4 stack of cavalry and forcing the bandits from yur borders.

Now, does this seem like a more enjoyable war scenario, without having several Isengard spam-stacks sieging the Hornburg every few turns. The uniqueness of faction battles is maintained because you fight bandits with a better incentive rather than just to rmove annoyance and pointless nusance

BENEFITS:

-More logical explanation for small stacks to appear
-Small stacks not always targeted at cities (less annoyance)
-Small stacks behave like bandits, they rome the region obstructing and looting (seen through financial loss)
-More unique battles are fought against Factions so the less exciting ones are left for bandits
-Defeating these stacks has further benefits (e.g.financial) to your nation rather than just to remove annoyance

*Overall your war scenarios feel more meaningful and unique

[Leonidas X]

No! I like fighting a half-stack Mordor army besieging Caer Andros every turn!

Just kidding. This is a cool idea, if there's a way to implement it.

[Hermes Trismegistos]

I don't know, lorewise it sounds good but would it really improve gameplay? In my opinion there is nothing more annoying than many small stacks you have to take down one by one and wouldn't this be even worse this way? As long as they are attacking me, even if it's pointless, I have not to spend even more time going after them. How would the game force me to meet them with skirmishing armies as well and not with my full strength? Furthermore I would probably just ignore them and attack the enemy where he's strong, like I do with many small enemy armies anyway...

Maybe I missed some points of how this is supposed to work - if so, I apologize and ask for further explanation...

[Evan MF]

I don't know, lorewise it sounds good but would it really improve gameplay? In my opinion there is nothing more annoying than many small stacks you have to take down one by one and wouldn't this be even worse this way? As long as they are attacking me, even if it's pointless, I have not to spend even more time going after them. How would the game force me to meet them with skirmishing armies as well and not with my full strength? Furthermore I would probably just ignore them and attack the enemy where he's strong, like I do with many small enemy armies anyway...

Maybe I missed some points of how this is supposed to work - if so, I apologize and ask for further explanation...

I apologize if the explanation wasn't clear, and I hope this one is clearer:

The bandits will be less annoying because their AI not as activly agressive towards cities, as it would to armies. Rarely a bandit unit will attack a city, but it may attack your passing armies, or obstruct them; forcing you to attack them if you want a faster passage, and they also deplete your income in that region and may even corrupt some generals or cities (they turn bandit).

Then a script can be put in place to lessen Faction AI small-stack-attacks, so large battle experiences against that faction feel alot more 'special' and unique, whilst you still have a more constant warfare with small stacks, which behave alot more like 'raider/bandit' small stacks should: not attacking cities so often and pondering around region looting and corrupting you people.

Overall the incentives to attack the bandits are alot more realistic (e.g. finacial recovery, removing corruption, removing obstruction, saving your population), rather than the incentive: Oh no! Here comes another annoying spam-stack, better sally out and destroy them - boring battle - . The incentives create an illusion that it is not a chore to wipe them out, but a tactical choice.

I think that might have been a messy continuation but I hope everyone can get the better picture.

Evan

[Evan MF]

Sry ... double post

[djamesc]

If it means not fighting an hour long siege at Osgiliath every turn, I'm for it.

[clev]

how about an event?

"orcs running on your lands uncontested"

like we've seen in the movies when rohan riders was hunting orcs..

[Evan MF]

SUMMARY:


Scripts:

-A script Mordor, Isengard and OOTMM, possibly Rhun and Harad surrounding enemy regions to have an increase in bandit units generating that will contain typical raiding units (e.g. Small bands of Ocrs and Trolls, small bands of Cosairs, Wildmen of Dunlend etc...) that will move around the region obstrucing or attacking armies of that faction, and rarely cities, that would override the purpouse of AI spam-attacks...

-A script to limit Faction AI spam attacks and limit them to mainly large armies.

EFFECTS ON REGION:

-Reduce Income
-Reduce Population Growth
-Increase sabotage of buildings
-Increase in unrest and population unhappyness
-Increase in corruption of armies, generals (not the heros) and on rare occasions cities
-Attack your passing armies (frequently) or cities (rarely)
-Obstruct you large passing armies
-Obstruct major passages e.g. mountain passes, bridges

TYPICAL SCENARIO:

You are Rohan, and your regions border with Isengard.

Isengard declares war on you. You see that more Bandit stacks appear around your region. Your income decreases and population growth decreases. You decide to attack Isengard and head towards the river Isen. One of the bridges is blocked by a Bandit party of Dunlendings and a few Uruk Hai Warg Scouts. In order to cross the bridge you must defeat them. Once defeated you pass across towards Isengard and have a large memorable battle with Isengard.

Meanwhile, back in your region you decide that corruption has got too high and you needto put an end to the raiders. You put together a 1/2-3/4 stack of cavalry and forcing the bandits from yur borders.

Now, does this seem like a more enjoyable war scenario, without having several Isengard spam-stacks sieging the Hornburg every few turns. The uniqueness of faction battles is maintained because you fight bandits with a better incentive rather than just to rmove annoyance and pointless nusance

BENEFITS:

-More logical explanation for small stacks to appear
-Small stacks not always targeted at cities (less annoyance)
-Small stacks behave like bandits, they rome the region obstructing and looting (seen through financial loss)
-More unique battles are fought against Factions so the less exciting ones are left for bandits
-Defeating these stacks has further benefits (e.g.financial) to your nation rather than just to remove annoyance

*Overall your war scenarios feel more meaningful and unique

Evan

[drwizardphd]

I give this idea my endorsement.

Although I'm not sure how easy (or possible) it would be to implement. I have a very limited knowledge of coding in the TW series, so you would have to ask somebody who really knows the ins and outs of the game. That being said, I think its a great idea and would really add to the depth and gameplay of TATW.

Good luck Evan Frayling, I hope this thread catches the eyes of the developers.

[evinmulligan]

I like it, but only in certain cases. the Rohan one suits, but for Gondor it could be very annoying trying to defend Osgiliath with bandits behind your back. for gondor this should only happen if you control Ithilien, and only in Ithilien, also maybe some corsair bandits in southern Gondor. Also maybe corsair sea bandits? It also shouldn't happen in the misty mountains if they are controlled by dwarves. I can't imagine any orcs getting through those narrow passes if any watch at all was kept.

[STELLover]

Hmm.. it would be hard to script this- if there is anyway that is.

Yes, you can control generation of armies through a script- define their location and dates. You can also control what they will be
composed of and who/what leads the army as well as its independant AI to manipulate the target of the generated "raids"

However, what you are describing is something more of a spontaneous generation. "Raid" parties can be scripted to appear every what-so-ever turns
(I am currently in the status of learning this!!) Custom spontaneous generations - which also has to change if lets say a good faction expands their territory
is hard to script because script works in patterns and coordinates.

Lore-wise it is a good idea- because Mordor and OOMM did release scouting parties- but the AI in my game already sends a "scout" unit of 2-3 units to places like Pelargir and then calls in the big armies later on and sieges it- no problem with me, but if you want this type of gameplay to be actually implemented-- All I can Say is GOOD LUCK!!!

My knowledge is still primitive in scripting- but my trainees say that sometimes there are no limits of what can be scripted- and new scipts are being constructed for mods like this one.

Regards
STELLover

[Blackomur89]

It is a great idea and if anyone would be able to do it it's Byg, I suggest asking him.

Edit: I think I'll ask him.

Edit2: Asked him.

[Shocked]

I think this will make the game more tedious, constantly having pointless battles with results that dont mean anything, other then wowzzorz I killed an army, what now?

[Evan MF]

I think this will make the game more tedious, constantly having pointless battles with results that dont mean anything, other then wowzzorz I killed an army, what now?

But the raiding parties rarely attack your large stacks, they will roam around causing trouble in that region, it is your choice whether to attack them.

This will also save small battles for the bandit faction and levae the larger, unique, more memorable battles to the main enemy faction. It creates the illusion that you are fighting them for a logical purpose.

It will also save siege battles for more memorable occasions, so you won't have a half stack sally out every 2-3 turns.

I personally think that the 'rebel' factions are not utilised to their full potential, neither in the orignal MTW2 game, nor the TATW Mod.

[Raiven]

I think this will make the game more tedious, constantly having pointless battles with results that dont mean anything, other then wowzzorz I killed an army, what now?

Imagine how many "pointless" battles has been fought in real life. War dont cosits only from heroic and epic battles, you know!

[Shocked]

Hahaha you both make some good points. But this is a game, and I hate wasting time on pointless battles I only like battles if I achieve something out of them, like weakening a main faction by destroying an army and leaving their cities open for attack

[clev]

i would like to suggest traits to governors if they do not eliminate raiders, like lenient to rebels, -piety, -loyalty, -to income, indifferent governor etc.. in that way players will force to attack raiders..

mordor should get also human trespassers, like dale/gondor units spawning

[Abyrvalg]

Nice idea, Evan.
I think bandits also should appear on conquered territories with high enemy culture.
For example you take Gundabad as dwarves, you see over 90% Followers of Melkor culture in that settlement, and in next few turns you see some snaga and goblin infantry bandits blocking roads and watchtowers.
It will simulate need to establish your control over new territories with different from yours or hostile culture.

[evinmulligan]

Maybe for good factions it is triggered by proximity to evil factions(with exceptions), and for evil by insurgents from recently conquered areas(also with exceptions.)?

[ForkbeardSvein]

It's a good idea if it can be made. If not, it might be easier for this to be a random event, like raiders attack blank region. And this will cause disorder, population loss, and less income. To stop it maybe you can just move more soldiers into that particular region, but if your idea can be done, then I would rather see some more half stacks.