Six seconds to exist…

[Amorphos]

Six seconds to exist…

I just watched an interesting program [horizon; the secret you] about how we define ourselves, the I and the will etc. most of it was what we all know anyway but one part caught my interest; an experiment was done where the subject was placed in an ecg unit where his brain was scanned as he made a decision. The result was that the decision he thought he was making was actually made up to six seconds earlier than his conscious decision!

In the experiment the subject had two buttons one held in each hand, then he had to decide to press either button it didn’t matter which one. The brain was measured all the while and when he chose one of the buttons, it correlated to another part of the brain which had sparked off 6 seconds before the decision. In short his brain had made the decision before he consciously made that same one.

Obviously this stuff is all in its infancy and was only for such simple decisions that had no dramatic consequence. The thing is, he went in there already knowing what he had to do and at some point probably already decided which button to press although not in specific conscious terms, it simple didn’t warrant a massive amount of conscious involvement.

I am thinking then, if there is a dilation of the will for things which have little consequence, so in a manner we program ourselves with what we are about to do ~ for things that don’t matter to much or are in the everyday running of the human machine. Indeed that because 90% of what we do doesn’t need the direct interaction of the will and is programmed by the brain.

Weather or not we are absolute slaves to the decision making of the brain is an interesting question. Morally I think this means there is no blame for anyone no matter what they do, it may simply be the case that we don’t decide upon anything!
Prior to this I could see atheist ethics as having a basis in the consciousness and its free will.

On the point that one may question if electro-magnetism is aware or conscious, and hence if we have some kind of ‘soul’, we still have to answer as to if it has any say or if it is completely subject to the material form. In which case we are organic robots without any free will whatsoever, and the soul [if existent] just a rider in a vehicle of which it has no control.

[Playfishpaste]

I think you're creating a false dichotomy here, the decision was still a decision, despite the fact that it took a while to fully develop consciously. That's still will there.

[Amorphos]

Indeed and that is the misperception of determinism to imho ~ they think they may know the user by studying the computer. The mathematician on the program seamed dismayed at the idea that this took away our free will and our very sense of self [when combined with the other aspects discussed].

However if I threw a spear at him he would make a decision to move in a fraction of a second and within the conscious epicentre of the mind! So I don’t see how the 6 second thing takes away the actions of the self and the will.

Perhaps its more the case that with things that don’t matter like the random pressing of a button [and all subconscious actions], we are more like passengers of the human vehicle, but with important things like being attacked or if driving averting an accident, there we are the drivers.

[Denny Crane!]

Six seconds to exist…

I just watched an interesting program [horizon; the secret you] about how we define ourselves, the I and the will etc. most of it was what we all know anyway but one part caught my interest; an experiment was done where the subject was placed in an ecg unit where his brain was scanned as he made a decision. The result was that the decision he thought he was making was actually made up to six seconds earlier than his conscious decision!

In the experiment the subject had two buttons one held in each hand, then he had to decide to press either button it didn’t matter which one. The brain was measured all the while and when he chose one of the buttons, it correlated to another part of the brain which had sparked off 6 seconds before the decision. In short his brain had made the decision before he consciously made that same one.

Obviously this stuff is all in its infancy and was only for such simple decisions that had no dramatic consequence. The thing is, he went in there already knowing what he had to do and at some point probably already decided which button to press although not in specific conscious terms, it simple didn’t warrant a massive amount of conscious involvement.

I am thinking then, if there is a dilation of the will for things which have little consequence, so in a manner we program ourselves with what we are about to do ~ for things that don’t matter to much or are in the everyday running of the human machine. Indeed that because 90% of what we do doesn’t need the direct interaction of the will and is programmed by the brain.

Weather or not we are absolute slaves to the decision making of the brain is an interesting question. Morally I think this means there is no blame for anyone no matter what they do, it may simply be the case that we don’t decide upon anything!
Prior to this I could see atheist ethics as having a basis in the consciousness and its free will.

On the point that one may question if electro-magnetism is aware or conscious, and hence if we have some kind of ‘soul’, we still have to answer as to if it has any say or if it is completely subject to the material form. In which case we are organic robots without any free will whatsoever, and the soul [if existent] just a rider in a vehicle of which it has no control.

Well this is interesting> I'm to busy these days to pick up on gems such as these. The fields of psychology I am interested in like NLP and abnormal psychology state that in the latters creed the unconscious dictates most of our decisions. Our behaviour is a result of programming and the extent of our free will is to change that program and be aware of our states, ultimately learning to manage them and so becoming more aware. Equally you are aware of the states you create in other people and so gain in your ability to affect the physical world as well as the internal one. You partially do this through greater awareness but also through programming yourself or having someone else do it for you. I must say that this all gels with Buddhism rather fantastically.

Abnormal psychology talks about causal loops between cause and effect. That genetically we have necessary causes that must exist before something can happen (genetic, biological, chemical) then you have a range of causes that exist in a timeframe between the past and the present that cause the event - sufficient, proximal, distal causes and there is a causal link mostly a loop between them all. These two philosophies or theories seem extremely valid. Abnormal psychology is useful in analysis, NLP is useful to make change. They conflict in theory but it depends on whether you want analysis or change.