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Thread: How is government morally feasible?

  1. #1
    Brain_in_a_vat's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default How is government morally feasible?

    Random thought.

    I was watching a few videos on Youtube about anarchism, and I realised how immoral the concept of government is. Think about it, the minority ultimately rule over the vast majority, whether it be a autocracy or an oligarchy or whatever. I know that, in a way, it is for the benefit of the masses, but I'm not talking about whether it's economically viable.

    What's your opinion?

  2. #2
    Stalins Ghost's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    Depends what form government takes.

    But thus far, we've yet to find a form that is solidly sound on a philosophical level.
    morecuriousthanbold.com

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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    What would be a better option?

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    Monarchist's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    Well, human beings have to surrender a few "rights" in order to live peacefully. Without a central authority to stop murderers from having fun in the streets, we wouldn't go very far as a species. I tend to agree with your sentiment for the most part, but without a government system (anarchy), oligarchs would simply sprout up in the form of warlords and local "bosses" anyway. At least in the Western sense of government, the majority people can accept its reality and usefulness. An anarchy would simply lead to a huge government taking power in the vacuum. Ironically, that makes anarchy a totalitarian concept, in terms of its future consequences.
    "Pauci viri sapientiae student."
    Cicero

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    Brain_in_a_vat's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    I feel like I've took a step back and realised how ridiculous is it. How can a group of people decide how the rest of us should live? Why can't we have sex at age fifteen? Why can't we take drugs wantonly? Why can't homosexuals get married?

    Obviously it isn't a simple case of allowing people to do whatever they want, nothing is ever that simple. It's a difficult subject, because government supporters commonly make the argument: "Then why wouldn't we be able to murder and steal at will?".

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    Well, human beings have to surrender a few "rights" in order to live peacefully. Without a central authority to stop murderers from having fun in the streets, we wouldn't go very far as a species. I tend to agree with your sentiment for the most part, but without a government system (anarchy), oligarchs would simply sprout up in the form of warlords and local "bosses" anyway. At least in the Western sense of government, the majority people can accept its reality and usefulness. An anarchy would simply lead to a huge government taking power in the vacuum. Ironically, that makes anarchy a totalitarian concept, in terms of its future consequences.

    Some sort of private law enforcement? It's not natural for people to run around murdering each other. Yeah I realise that there will always be megalomaniacs, but that's still government. I'm not an anarchist, I'm just intrigued and stumped.
    Last edited by Brain_in_a_vat; October 20, 2009 at 07:22 AM.

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    Brain_in_a_vat's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    delete

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    Monarchist's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brain_in_a_vat View Post
    Some sort of private law enforcement? It's not natural for people to run around murdering each other. Yeah I realise that there will always be megalomaniacs, but that's still government. I'm not an anarchist, I'm just intrigued and stumped.
    The problem for most modern people (who believe in "Democracy") is that private law enforcement would be unaccountable to the people. Technically, national and federal governments across the world are their own private corporations. They're just private corporations which have been given legitimacy by the populations who voted them in. Of course, that isn't the case in dictatorships, where it's basically a private company that has taken over a nation. There is no such thing as a public company, but only private companies which are sometimes accountable and sometimes not.

    A public company (i.e. the modern concept of a "government") would only exist in a world where everyone was psychic and could read each others' thoughts.
    "Pauci viri sapientiae student."
    Cicero

  8. #8

    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    Government has always been bound to a different moral code than us common folk. It's despicable. For several millenia, they've have murdered us, they've stolen from us, they tell use how to live our lives. Government is nothing but a group of people calling themselves the government. And we've bought into their lies.

    Abolish government.

  9. #9

    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    A government is necessary in order to maintain order and create a fair and just society. Without a government, those who are powerful either through either wealth or strength would inevitably take advantage of others. Sure, many people would voluntarily work together, but when dealing with crime and enforcing a justice system a government is necessary as private institutions would most likely be biased (not saying that the state is completely unbiased, but at least it must adhere to certain rules and regulations). How would a stateless society provide universal education or healthcare to the poor?

    A society without government would probably create one to fill the vacuum due to the sheer instability created. In addition, a society with a democratic government arguably provides people with more power than one with no government, where the weak would be at the mercy of the powerful.

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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    The expression "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" springs to mind.

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    Brain_in_a_vat's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Leary View Post
    Government has always been bound to a different moral code than us common folk. It's despicable. For several millenia, they've have murdered us, they've stolen from us, they tell use how to live our lives. Government is nothing but a group of people calling themselves the government. And we've bought into their lies.

    Abolish government.
    Exactly. When people speak of anarchism they picture lawlessness. I've realised that it doesn't have to work like that.

  12. #12

    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brain_in_a_vat View Post
    Exactly. When people speak of anarchism they picture lawlessness. I've realised that it doesn't have to work like that.
    How come?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vollendung View Post
    How come?
    Law and government don't have to be inderdependent. If you disregard what Monarchist said about government essentially being a corporation, some kind of private company could fill the role. I haven't studied anarchism very much to be honest .

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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    I think of the justice system as the protection racket of choice for the discerning

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    cfmonkey45's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brain_in_a_vat View Post
    Random thought.

    I was watching a few videos on Youtube about anarchism, and I realised how immoral the concept of government is. Think about it, the minority ultimately rule over the vast majority, whether it be a autocracy or an oligarchy or whatever. I know that, in a way, it is for the benefit of the masses, but I'm not talking about whether it's economically viable.

    What's your opinion?
    Well, so far, the government hasn't infringed on any of my rights, those to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They also protect me in return for tax dollars, which also go to the upkeep of infrastructure, free schools, and subsidies for a college or university. They also have police and firefighters that protect me, as well as a military that ensure the safety of the entire nation along with dozens of agencies.

    I'd say that aside from the abstract awkwardness of nationalism and statehood, it's a very moral--if inefficient--entity.

  16. #16
    Brain_in_a_vat's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    The rights which you have been socialised into believing are the only rights you should have .

  17. #17

    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    So statements on youtube inspire this?
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  18. #18
    Brain_in_a_vat's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    Yes. Like I said, I haven't studied anarchism. I was on Youtube and I came across a video related to anarchism which sparked a thought.

  19. #19

    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    You should probably look for some Ethics professors or Civics professors and dig up some research. I mean...statements...on youtube...
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  20. #20
    Brain_in_a_vat's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: How is government morally feasible?

    Not all Youtube users are immature little bastards.

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