Portugal vs. Spain

[Conquistador Kilik]

Well Spain has been included in more of the games than Portugal and practically the world sees Spain as a far superior nation. Who do you think will be included? Both? Do you think they should?

I can speculate that Spain will be included because of it's name but they didn't play as big as a role as Portugal in the Peninsular War but so is the story of Portugal's life..

[Godless Pickle]

Portugal had a vast empire in South America and were a important ally of Britain, and for Spain they also had a big empire, one of the biggest and were a important battlefront for Napoleons armies and the British, Spanish, and Portugal. Im pretty sure they will both be in NTW, or CA's crazy.

[Conquistador Kilik]

I'm pretty sure most said Portugal would be in ETW seeing they were amongst the strongest navel powers and had a more world-wide empire than Spain but..

[detat88]

I believe that portugal will be included.

[Conquistador Kilik]

Haha!
I'm not trying to say Spain was a bad nation and doesn't deserve to be in the game, I'm just saying for once Portugal needs some recognition as a powerful country and should be included over Spain, say there be only one spot left. Just to clear that up.

People tend to overlook Portugal but they were fierce competition with Spain until the end. Even I was surprised when I heard Portugal (that little thing beside the big thing) had defeated Spain (the big thing beside the dot on the map) to regain it's "independence".

[Society]

Portugal was at the height of its power in 1700, having recently regained independence and Brazil growing in wealth. They should've been in the game, but seeing as they didn't DO much during the century of note... I can understand them being left out.

Now... In Napoleonic times they were massively important in the Peninsula campaign, their Caçadores were some of the heroes of the Napoleonic wars.

[Sol Invictus]

I doubt either Spain or Portugal will be a playable faction since CA seems to be focusing on the majors only and while the Peninsula Campaign was certainly important, Spain was definitely a second tier major and Portugal a moderate power. It would be nice if they are playable but I am guessing not. I would like to see an entire campaign for Iberia. Forget the Egyption farce.

[Xerrop]

I doubt either Spain or Portugal will be a playable faction since CA seems to be focusing on the majors only

Seems right to me, so both will be missing.

Well Spain has been included in more of the games than Portugal and practically the world sees Spain as a far superior nation.

It´s not that the world only sees Spain as superior. It is simple superior.

Even I was surprised when I heard Portugal (that little thing beside the big thing) had defeated Spain (the big thing beside the dot on the map) to regain it's "independence".

Btw Portugal is not a dot on the map, they had one fourth to one third of Spain´s population. So what is so special about this independence? Happened often in history. A surprise would have been a Spain conquered by Portugal.

[(HG-F)Ipod]

I know that Portugal wasn't invade by France...but Spain had no surrender. Spain still fighting, in every hill, in every forest, with guerrillas and regulars. Portugal, at the same time, atacked the french forces with his allies, the British. If we think that Portugal is more important that Spain in the Guerra de Independencia -Peninsular War for english-, we are confussed. I know that Portugal was a big nation, but Spain was bigger...Portugal was a strong country, with encouraged soldiers, but the army was little, because of its slow population. It is an important factor. If your country is empty, you can't send soldiers...

So, this is my opinion:
Spain was invaded, but not surrender. Portugal has a strong economy and can use modern tactics and material, but Portugal can't send forces enough...so Spain and Portugal should be at the same level (in May 1808).

[killerchinchilla]

Assuming CA won't be having some complicated ally system I'd rather see Portugal under some sort of British control, so you can allow both armies to fight together in a semi-accurate manner. It would be great if it was 'independent' but under the direct control of the British player though.

[Ataegina]

Assuming CA won't be having some complicated ally system I'd rather see Portugal under some sort of British control, so you can allow both armies to fight together in a semi-accurate manner. It would be great if it was 'independent' but under the direct control of the British player though.

Thats fantasy Britain never controled portugal or spain.......

yes they've lead the allied armies (british,portuguese,etc) but was all about better management on war effort

[killerchinchilla]

Thats fantasy Britain never controled portugal or spain.......

yes they've lead the allied armies (british,portuguese,etc) but was all about better management on war effort

I never said they did. Britain DID manage for all intents and purposes Portugals army during a fair bit of the period, and the two armies were so intertwined I just could never see CA representing that while keeping Portugal as an independently playable nation. I'd love a fair and 'realistic' ability to play all the European nations of the period but we all know that will never happen. I'd just prefer to see a Portugal thats playable, even if its alongside Britain, making it a significant nation, rather than none playable (which lets face it is likely) and totally ignored.

[LordKainES]

Spain must to be present, because, Spain during the peninsula war, had its own goverment to restore Fernando VII! and kick frenchies ass xDDD

The rebel goverment had its own army too with great generals like Castaños, not only guerrillas(majority peasants).

Both nations must to be presents! They were decisive to win this war!

And a Peninsula war campaing would be amazing!!!

I think its the most important event during Napoleonic war, because french defeat here broke the aura of "invencibility" of the Grande armee...

[Elyrioth]

Going by the material available and comments we could be looking at as little as 5 factions. If this is the case then obviously they won't. France, Austria, Russia, Prussia and GB will make up the 5. CA have mentioned all of them as playable in a few sources. Depends on the number of factions really.

Campaign is Europe only so the overseas empire arguement is meaningless and starts in 1805 so prior to the Peninsular War. the Theme of the game is Napoleon, who was only invoilved in the Peninsula for less that 2 months so the other nations are more pertinent to the theme of the game.

I feel it will depend on the number of factions. I doubt both will make it in. If one of them makes it in then it will be Spain, obviously, the fact it had the 3rd largest navy of the time should get it in. My gut at the moment says neither. We could be looking at the big 5 only.

[Ahiga]

Anyone else think it's a bit insane to not include the Peninsular campaign? I'm not a Napoleonic scholar, but I do imagine it was one of the most important areas of conflict (probably more than the brief little vacation off in Egypt and the Middle East, albeit that's because Napoleon failed in that regard). It would be perfect to represent in CA's plan of a smaller scope/larger detail theatre rather than continental mini campaign, where you could actually pull off guerrilla tactics because the Peninsula would be more than just Lisbon, Madrid and Gibraltar like in Vanilla ETW

[Elyrioth]

The Peninsular war would not fit in with the theme that is why it is not included. The Theme is Napoleon the Person and his campaigns. Napoleon was involved in the Peninsula for less than 2 months. So not really one of his campaigns. Would also mess with the time line for the Mastery of Europe GC

[A1_Unit]

Maybe not seeing as there are 2 week turns...

[LordKainES]

The Peninsular war would not fit in with the theme that is why it is not included. The Theme is Napoleon the Person and his campaigns. Napoleon was involved in the Peninsula for less than 2 months. So not really one of his campaigns. Would also mess with the time line for the Mastery of Europe GC

Really think so????

I have to remember you that Napoleon´s supplies for Rusian invasion, had to be sended to Peninsula, because french army were suffering a lot deaths here...

This conflict was very important to Napoleon! and decisive for his decadence!

[Ataegina]

I never said they did. Britain DID manage for all intents and purposes Portugals army during a fair bit of the period, and the two armies were so intertwined I just could never see CA representing that while keeping Portugal as an independently playable nation. I'd love a fair and 'realistic' ability to play all the European nations of the period but we all know that will never happen. I'd just prefer to see a Portugal thats playable, even if its alongside Britain, making it a significant nation, rather than none playable (which lets face it is likely) and totally ignored.

both major factions with diplomatic set to both starting as allies. if CA simply ignore spain and portugal as major factions, well better go play WoW because CA lost their minds and sense of accuracy

Anyone else think it's a bit insane to not include the Peninsular campaign? I'm not a Napoleonic scholar, but I do imagine it was one of the most important areas of conflict (probably more than the brief little vacation off in Egypt and the Middle East, albeit that's because Napoleon failed in that regard). It would be perfect to represent in CA's plan of a smaller scope/larger detail theatre rather than continental mini campaign, where you could actually pull off guerrilla tactics because the Peninsula would be more than just Lisbon, Madrid and Gibraltar like in Vanilla ETW

very good point

for the god sake lets not repeat same mistake on ntw, like they did with etw (country = single region) if this was in reallity than sure napoleon would conquered alot more since 1 battle would give the control of the whole country

[Ludicus]

if CA simply ignore spain and portugal as major factions, well better go play WoW because CA lost their minds and sense of accuracy

Well...

with diplomatic set to both starting as allies

Yep. Even wiki knows it:

The Peninsular War was a contest between France and the allied powers of Spain, the United Kingdom, and Portugal for control of the Iberian Peninsula during the Napoleonic Wars

Elyrioth

The Theme is Napoleon the Person and his campaigns

Your argument doesn´t make sense, sorry. Everybody knows that the Peninsular War was to play a major part in Napoleon's downfall. The tide began to turn in 1808.