View Poll Results: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace

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  • Savior

    10 12.99%
  • Neither, He did both good and bad things

    29 37.66%
  • Menace

    38 49.35%
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Thread: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

  1. #101
    Starlightman's Avatar Calling Card
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravnos View Post
    However much I respect your opinion, I can't help but remembering my own visit to Albania in the 80's as part of the Choir of Ioannina. If you were there to see with your own eyes the utter devastation wrought upon a country by a stalinist dictator, you probably would have a different notion of what is democratic and what is not.
    Albania vs Cuba?

    apples vs Oranges....

    I used to think that Ernesto Guevara was a great figure, that he somehow liberated the people of Cuba by throwing out the "gangsters", fixing up health, providing for the poor, all that. I even read his "how we conquered Cuba" or something book when I was quite young. The problem is that he didn't. Those "Gangsters" are now hiding in the beautiful mansions while the vast majority of the population lives much worse off than they would have, had things been different. All the fixes and care for the poor are just bandaids in an open wound.
    Correspondent of Guardian in Latin America, the journalist Richard Gott was first who recognized dead Che few hours afterwards his implementation. In the following extract, from his book for guerrilla the decade of '60 ("Rural guerillas in Latin America" , London 1970,Penguin publ.), Gott recounts his experience.

    8 October 1967

    That Sunday the time was hot, and in 20:30 the evening we walk around with a English friend in the central square of Santa Cruz in Eastern Bolivia, when somebody of us nodded from the table of cafe. "I have news for you"?, it said to us. "Che"? , we asked, why the possibility is arrested Che twirled in our brain a week. Before few days we found itself in the small city Bagengrante and we had heard colonel Hoakin Senteno Anagia, governor of eighth division of Bolivian armed forces, express the certainty that his troops will put Che in the hand before the end of week.

    He explained to us in deed that they had been strengthened by 600 U.S Texas rangers, fresh from the camp of education that directed the Special Forces of United States of north Santa Cruz. He still said how became the surrounded of rebels. Possibility of escape existed only from a side, and there the army had scattered soldiers disguised in farmers, so that they mean immediately alarm as soon as they see the rebels passing from this point.

    From the elements that had given us residents of village in which entered the rebels about the end of September and from the testimony of two rebels that had been arrested, we remained with the doubt that Che was the head of this encircled team. "Che has been arrested" , say to us our man in the cafe, " but he is wounded seriously and maybe he can't lives tomorrow"

    The remainder rebels fight desperately to help him, while the commander of government troops asks to send him a helicopter so that they can remove the captured Che.
    Government troops commander is in such agitation and the base cannot completely understand him. The only thing that they who heared him from radio speaker was the cry"We catch him".
    Our informant continued saying that he should we rent helicopter and we fly immediately in the region of rebels. He did not know if Che was still alive or he had died, but it sensed that the probabilities still lives they was too little.

    ..............

    The people around the corpse were more repugnant than the dead: A nun that could not hide her grin and certain times laughed hard. Officers who came to see with their fotographs in order to "catch" the scene. And, obviously, the agent of CIA. He looks like the "head" of all this operation and became frenetic each time where somebody marked him with his photographic machine. "From where are you", we asked him in the English, just for fun: "From Cuba? Puerto Rico? "

    It did not showed he has the same fun and it answered in English: "From nowere".We ask the same later, but this time it answered in the Spanish " Que dice? "and pretended that he does not understand English.
    He was about 35 years old,with very good body,swinish eyes. It is difficult to find if he was Northeramerican or Cuban banished, because it spoke English and Spanish with the same facility and without trace of particular accent.
    Later I discovered that he said to Eddie Gonzales that he has a club in Havana before the revolution............


    Let's speak the truth here. Che only made his buddies richer.
    with his dead?I doubt...at least some people made richer but his buudies maybe came richer with different ways,like our polititician in our country my friend...

    That's it. Everyone else is either in the same situation as they were back in 1959 or worse. Good health and literacy are great, granted, but there is NOTHING else out there for those people.
    please can someone ask them?not the US Cubans,the people who stayed there until now...
    Simple as that. US can't be blamed for the embargo, as the world was about 5 minutes from destruction and that is something not easily put aside.
    You reffered to Cuban missile crisis?and US can't be blamed?LOL...

    I do agree that some of the restrictions must be eased, especially so that the people of Cuba might live, but, please tell me, should it have to be that way?
    In these times...yes...NOW...no...

    That people from Miami go to Cuba not with luggages but with all the food they can spare to give to their relatives? Can that be a good thing?
    Do you know how many people lose their lives trying to cross the carribean? Don't they deserve better? Would you DARE to utter any criticism on Stalinista Castro were you a Cuban citizen?
    now you compare the refuggees with stalin Castro?See around...this happens to everywere...until now we speak,not at 60's...



    Viva la revolucion comrade....

    Respect earned,not given my friend...and Che earned the respect,only cause he tries to make a better world with his ideas at 60's,good or bad,we cannot criticize him now cause we don't know how was the world at his time,only a part of that...

    http://www.rwf.gr/episode1-new.php?lang1=english&id=200

    about poll...Both...
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  2. #102

    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Keravnos there's different kinds of socialism. And the Latin American variants have tended to be quite distinct, so comparisons with Stalinism are sketchy at best.

    It was arguably this tendency of Americans (I should say of the United States, for Latin Americans are just as American) to view communism as a monolithic entity during the cold war that aggrevated much of the Latin American left. Case in point: Cuba. The original revolution was more nationalist than socialist/communist in character. The US response was as responsible for it becoming communist as anything else.

  3. #103
    ★Bandiera Rossa☭'s Avatar The Red Menace
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Indeed, there is also the fact that most Latin American varieties were contrary to Stalinism (by virtue of actually being Socialist)


  4. #104

    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Any communist is a menace to me.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    What exactly did Che do, besides murder anyone who might disagree with him, help install brutal dictators across the globe, and completely destroy the Cuban economy, turning it into a welfare state of the USSR?
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  6. #106
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    by welfare state you mean by the fact the soviets provided massive support financially right?
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    What exactly did Che do, besides murder anyone who might disagree with him, help install brutal dictators across the globe, and completely destroy the Cuban economy, turning it into a welfare state of the USSR?
    Well he did inspire generations of Central/South American boys with dreams of Dictatorship by military juntas. What young lad doesn't want an army of loyal goons, free access to women, and the plunder of an entire nation?
    To be governed is to be watched, inspected, directed, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, and commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, wisdom, nor virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, taxed, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, admonished, reformed, corrected, and punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted, and robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, abused, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, and betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, and dishonored. -Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

  8. #108
    ★Bandiera Rossa☭'s Avatar The Red Menace
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Revolutionary comrades: It was a day in July or August of 1955 when we first met El Che. And in one night, as tell in his accounts, he became a future Granma expeditionary. But at that time that expedition had neither ships, weapons, nor troops. And this was the way El Che, together with Raul, joined the first two groups on the Granma list.

    Since then, 12 years have gone by, 12 years fraught with struggles and obstructions. Through these years death reaped many valuable and irreparable lives, but at the same time, through these years, extraordinary people emerged in our revolution and were molded among men of the revolution. And ties of affection and friendship were made among these men and the people, ties which went further that it is possible to express.

    Tonight we are gathered here, you and I, to try to express these sentiments in some way with regard to one who was one of the most familiar, one of the most admired, one of the most beloved, and, without any doubt, the most extraordinary of our comrades of revolution, to express these sentiment to him and to the heroes who have fought and have fallen beside him—his internationalist army which has been writing a glorious page of history.

    Che was on of those persons whom everybody liked immediately because of his simplicity, because of his nature, because of his naturalness, because of his comradeship, because of his personality, because of his originality, even before his other singular virtues were revealed. During those first moments he was the doctor of our troop, and thus our bonds emerged and thus our feelings emerged. He was soon to be impregnated with a profound spirit of hatred and contempt for imperialism, not only because his political makeup was already considerably developed, but because only a short time before he had had the opportunity to witness in Guatemala the criminal imperialist intervention through the mercenary soldiers who overthrew the revolution in that country.

    For a man such as he, many arguments were not necessary. It was enough for him to know that Cuba lived under a similar situation. It was enough for him that there were men determined to fight that situation with weapons in hand. It was enough for him to know that those men were inspired by genuinely revolutionary and patriotic sentiments. That was more than enough. In this manner, one day near the end of November 1955, he began the trip to Cuba with us. I recall that the crossing was very difficult for him because, in the circumstances under which it was necessary to organize the departure, he could not even obtain the medicines that he needed, and he suffered a sever attack of asthma during the entire crossing without any relief, but also without a single complain.

    We arrived. We began the first marches. We suffered the first setback. And after a few weeks, we met again, as you know, that small group of those who were left of the Granma expedition. Che continued to be the doctor of our troop.

    The first victorious battle was waged and Che then became a soldier of our troop; at the same time he was still the doctor.

    The second victorious battle was waged and Che the soldier became the most distinguished of the soldiers in that battle, for the first time accomplishing one of those singular exploits which characterized him in all the actions.

    Our force continued to develop and a battle of extraordinary importance at that time was waged. The situation was different. Reports were erroneous in many aspects. We were going to attack a strongly defended position in full daylight, in the morning, at the edge of the sea. It was well armed and we had enemy troops at our rear, very near. Under conditions of confusion which it was necessary to ask the men to make a supreme effort, after Comrade Juan Almaida had begun one of the most difficult missions, one of the flanks still did not have enough men. It lacked an attacking force, which could endanger the operation. At that moment, Che, who was still the doctor, asked for three or four men, among them a man with an automatic rifle. In a matter of seconds he quickly began to assume the mission of attack from that direction. On that occasion he was not only a distinguished fighter but he also was a distinguished doctor, giving assistance to the wounded comrades and at the same time caring for the wounded enemy soldiers. And when it was necessary to abandon that position, once all the weapons were captured, and begin a long march besieged by various enemy forces, it was necessary for somebody to stay with the wounded. El Che stayed with the wounded, helped by a small group of our soldiers. He cared for them. He saved their lives and joined them in the column later.

    From that moment in which he was outstanding as a capable and brave commander. El Che, this type of man who when a different mission has to be done does not wait, does not wait to be asked – arrived and completed the mission. This he did during the battle of Uvero, and he did this, too, on an occasion, not mentioned in the early stages, when, because of a betrayal, our small force was attacked by surprise by many planes. As we were retreating under the bombing and had already walked some distance, we remembered some rifles of some peasant soldiers who had been with us during the first actions and who had later asked permission to visit their families – there was still not much discipline in our young army – and at the moment we considered the possibility that the rifles would be lost. No sooner was the problem brought up, under the bombing, when El Che volunteered and, and he did so, left rapidly to bring back the rifles.

    That was one of his outstanding characteristics – immediate willingness, instantaneous readiness to volunteer for the most dangerous mission. Naturally this elicited admiration, double admiration for that comrade who fought beside us, who was not born in this land, who was a man of profound ideas, who was a man in whose mind surged dreams of struggle in other parts of the continent and yet, that altruism, that unselfishness, that willingness to do the most difficult always, to risk his life constantly. It was in this way that he won his rank of major and of commander of the second column that was organized in the Sierra Maestra. In this way his prestige grew. His fame began to grow as a magnificent fighter, which was to carry him to the highest ranks in the course of the war.

    Che was an unbeatable soldier, commander. From a military standpoint Che was an extraordinary capable man, extraordinarily brave, extraordinarily aggressive. If he had and Achilles heel as a guerrilla, that Achilles heel was his excessive aggressiveness. It has his absolute scorn for danger. The enemies try to draw conclusion about his death. Che was a master of war.

    Che was an artist in guerrilla warfare. He demonstrated this an infinite number of times, but above all in two extraordinary exploits. One of them was the invasion at the head of a column, a column which was pursued by thousands of soldiers through territory that was absolutely open and unknown. He accomplished with Camilo a formidable military feat.

    But, in addition, he demonstrated it in his brilliant campaign in Las Villas, and he demonstrated it above all in his daring attack on the city of Santa Clara, entering a city defended by tanks, artillery, and several thousand infantry soldiers with a column of barely 300 men.

    Those two exploits mark him as an extraordinarily able chief, a master, an artist of revolutionary warfare. Nevertheless, after his heroic and glorious death they attempt to deny the veracity or worth of his guerrilla concepts and ideas. The artist can die, particularly when he is an artist in such a dangerous art as the revolutionary struggle, but what cannot die under any circumstances is the art to which he dedicated his life and to which he dedicated his intelligence.

    Why is it so strange that this artist should die in a battle? It is much more extraordinary that on the many occasions that he risked his life he was not killed during some battle. Many were the times in which it was necessary to take action to prevent him fro getting killed in actions of minor importance. And so in a battle, in one of the many battles that he waged, he lost his life. We do not have enough evidence to make a judgment as to all the circumstances preceding that battle, as to the degree in which he may have acted in an overly aggressive manner, but we repeat that if as a guerrilla he had an Achilles heel, that Achilles heel was his excessive aggressiveness, his absolute contempt for danger.

    That was where it was difficult to agree with him, because we understand that his life, his experience, his ability as a veteran chief, his prestige, and everything that he signified in life, were much more, incomparable more, valuable that he perhaps realized himself. The idea that men have a relative value in history may have profoundly influenced his conduct; the idea that causes cannot be defeated when men fall and that the uncontainable march of history does not stop nor will it stop because the commanders fall. And this is certain, this cannot be doubted. This shows his faith in mankind, his faith in ideas, his faith in setting an example. Yet, as I said a few days ago, I would have wholeheartedly wished to have seen him as the molder of victories, molding under his leadership, molding under his direction, the victories, because men of his experience, of his caliber, of his singular ability are uncommon men. We are able to appreciate all the value of his example and we have the most absolute conviction that this example will serve as emulation and will serve to bring men similar to him from the bosom of the people.

    It is not easy to find in one person all the virtues found in him. It is not easy for a person to be able spontaneously to develop a personality like his. I would say that he is the type of man who is difficult to equal and practically impossible to improve upon. But I would also say that men like him are able with their example to help the rise of other men like him.

    We not only admire the warrior in El Che, the man capable of great feats, and what he did and what he was doing, that fact in itself of facing alone with a handful of men an entire oligarchic army trained by Yankee advisers, supplied by Yankee imperialism, supported by the oligarchies of all the neighboring nations, that fact in itself is an extraordinary feat. If one seeks in the pages of history one may not possibly find a single case in which somebody with such a small number of men had embarked on such a large-scale task, in which somebody with such a small number of men had embarked on a struggle against such considerable forces. It is proof of his self-confidence. It is proof of his confidence in the people. It is proof of his confidence in the capacity of men for combat. One may seek in the pages of history and nothing comparable will be found.

    And he fell. The enemies believe that they have defeated his ideas, that they have defeated his guerrilla concepts, that they have defeated his viewpoints on the armed revolutionary struggle. What they gained with a lucky blow was to eliminate his physical life. What they did was to achieve the accidental advantages which an enemy may achieve in war. That lucky blow, that stroke of fortune, we do not know to what degree it was helped by that characteristic, to which we referred before, of excessive aggressiveness and absolute contempt for danger in a battle like so many battles. It also happened during our war of independence, in a battle at Dos Rios, where they killed the apostle of our independence. In a battle at Punta Brava they killed Antonio Maceo, veteran of hundred battles. In similar battles a number of chiefs were killed, a number of patriots of our independence wars. Nevertheless, that was not the defeat of the Cuban cause.

    The death of Che, as we said a few days ago, is a hard blow, it is a tremendous blow to the revolutionary movement because, without any doubt, it deprives it of its most experienced and capable chief. But they who sing victory are mistaken. They are mistaken who believe that his death is the defeat of his ideas, the defeat of his tactics, the defeat of his guerrilla concepts, the defeat of his thesis, because that man who fell as a mortal man, as a man who many times exposed himself to bullets, as a military man, as a chief, he was a thousand time more capable than those who with one stroke of luck killed him.

    However, how must revolutionaries face this adverse blow? How must they face this loss? What would be Che’s opinion if he had to make a judgment on this subject? He expressed that opinion very clearly when he wrote in his message to the Latin American solidarity Organization that if death surprised him at any place, it would be welcome, providing that his battle cry had reached a receptive ear and another hand was stretched out to grasp a weapon. And that was his battle cry. It will not reach one receptive ear, but millions of receptive ears, not one hand, but millions of hands outstretching to grasp weapons, inspired by his example. New commanders will arise. Men will need commanders who will rise from the rank and file of the people, just as commanders have arisen in all revolutions. Those hands will not be able to count on a commander of the extraordinary experience, of the enormous ability of El Che. Those commanders will be formed from among the millions who sooner or later will take up arms.


  9. #109

    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Guy You Met At School View Post
    Any communist is a menace to me.
    Right becouse they are so diferent then any other people.

    PS: You know there is people who say the exact same thing of the muslims, doesnt mean they are right.

    Keravnos there's different kinds of socialism. And the Latin American variants have tended to be quite distinct, so comparisons with Stalinism are sketchy at best.

    It was arguably this tendency of Americans (I should say of the United States, for Latin Americans are just as American) to view communism as a monolithic entity during the cold war that aggrevated much of the Latin American left. Case in point: Cuba. The original revolution was more nationalist than socialist/communist in character. The US response was as responsible for it becoming communist as anything else.
    Absulotly true.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; October 20, 2009 at 10:10 PM.

  10. #110
    ★Bandiera Rossa☭'s Avatar The Red Menace
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    The only fault that may be discernible in a true Communist is excess kindness and empathy.


  11. #111
    ★Bandiera Rossa☭'s Avatar The Red Menace
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    -delete-


  12. #112
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slurricane
    The only fault that may be discernible in a true Communist is excess kindness and empathy.
    You forgot the naivete, the complete ignorance of history and the dangerous possibility of a 'utopia justifies my means' mindset if they turn to violence to try and make their (presently unachievable) dream come true (yes, just like Che).

  13. #113

    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    I'm inclined to believe he fought for a good cause, but he sacrificed too much to achieve it. Like I don't get why he needed to go start revolutions in other countries whose own communist parties were not at all interested in violent revolutions.
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  14. #114
    Valus's Avatar Natura, artis magistra
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    I have never understood the glorification of Che ,especially by young people, and my opinion is that he was more of a menace than a savior..Then again I have never supported communism in any way, shape or form..
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  15. #115

    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Che was better then most, yes he did crimes, but 99% of political people do crimes. He wanted a better world, most others fight for greed or ultranationalism, he was a good man. RIP!

  16. #116

    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slurricane View Post
    The only fault that may be discernible in a true Communist is excess kindness and empathy.
    And a propensity to murder anyone who disagrees with them, can't forget that.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  17. #117
    ★Bandiera Rossa☭'s Avatar The Red Menace
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Borat View Post
    You forgot the naivete, the complete ignorance of history and the dangerous possibility of a 'utopia justifies my means' mindset if they turn to violence to try and make their (presently unachievable) dream come true (yes, just like Che).
    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    And a propensity to murder anyone who disagrees with them, can't forget that.
    Actually that is more the mindset of Stalinists, all Orthodox Marxists will tell you that "Although the end may justify the means, the end itself must be justified"


  18. #118
    BNS's Avatar ...
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    His ideas may have been "noble" but his results where bad. I don't understand how people can overlook the latter and claim to have been a great guy. Judging a person solely through their intentions you can practically justify almost any 20th century oppressor.

    Then you people say that as a Cuban I'm unfairly biased. Well no I unlike you guys I'm living the consequences of his actions. The very ones you find so easy to overlook from your insulated ideological positions.



  19. #119
    ★Bandiera Rossa☭'s Avatar The Red Menace
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Did I ever say He was a great guy? I said he had nobles about him and that he was attempting to fight oppression and seems to have at heart really cared to free the oppressed. (I myself voted for the second option, that he committed both good and bad acts)


  20. #120
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: Ernesto Guevara: Savior or Menace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slurricane
    Actually that is more the mindset of Stalinists, all Orthodox Marxists will tell you that "Although the end may justify the means, the end itself must be justified"


    So does this mean Che (who obviously had that 'utopia justifies my means' mindset - that or he was ax-crazy) was a Stalinist?

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