Last edited by Farnan; October 11, 2009 at 07:00 PM.
“The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”
—Sir William Francis Butler
I wonder, would this article be more fitting in the Museum section?
*sigh* the only way to know the race of the Ancient Egyptians it to test the ancient DNA. There, problem solved XD. Just test every single mummy, corpse..etc and you will get the answer . Also test the DNA of the "Cocaine" found on the mummies 'cause i am fed up with the whole "Egypt came to America" .
I think they were black but just got assimilated later.
I for one don't mind, since I didn't catch this thread earlier.
Interesting article, but I would argue that things like circumcision, animal worship and ancestor worship are not uniquely African at all - all of them could (and still can!) be found in Asia. That's 3 out of 5 of the aspects you mentioned, so your argument is very weak there in my opinion.
They are from the Americas which is why they have Cocaine and Pyramids
You mention the wall paintings, but the fact is that Ethiopians and Nubians, who are apparently the closest genetic relations to Egyptians, were depicted always with black or extremely dark brown dye in paintings, not the lighter brown of the Egyptians. Egypt was a mixed race from the beginning. It began with native tribes hunting and gathering on the banks of the Nile (most probably nearly identical to Nubians), then a mass influx of Libyan-types stimulated cultural development during the drying up of the Sahara as they sought more fertile lands, which they found in Egypt. By the time of the first pharaohs, most of the population likely consisted of a mix of these two stocks.
It's not "racist" to deny that ancient Egyptians were black Africans, just as it is not "racist" to deny that they were caucasoid. They were a mixed race from the beginning.
Enough with the race wars over ancient civilizations, people. Get on with your lives.
Some day I'll actually write all the reviews I keep promising...
Behold the Egypt that you all never see (there is much more):
recent analysis of the Sphinx's facial structure by forensic experts concluded that the Sphinx's facial structure indicates that it obviously represents a "black African"
Notice the darker paint peeling off
Incorrect the original ancient Egyptians were a mixture of Afro-Asiactic speakers (Ethiopians, Somalis, ect) and Nilo Saharan speaking populations:Egypt was a mixed race from the beginning.
"Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots. The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt. The ancient Egyptian language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called Afroasiatic or, formerly, Hamito-Semitic). The speakers of the earliest Afrasian languages, according to recent studies, were a set of peoples whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselves by gathering wild grains. The first elements of Egyptian culture were laid down two thousand years later, between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities expanded northward into Egypt, bringing with them a language directly ancestral to ancient Egyptian. They also introduced to Egypt the idea of using wild grains as food." (Christopher Ehret (1996) "Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture." In Egypt in Africa Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press)
"the peoples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egypt domesticated cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C. They included peoples from the Afroasiastic linguistic group and the second major African language family, Nilo-Saharan (Wendorf, Schild, Close 1984; Wendorf, et al. 1982). Thus the earliest domestic cattle may have come to Egypt from these southern neighbors, circa 6000 B.C., and not from the Middle East.[148] Pottery, another significant advance in material cultural may also have followed this pattern, initiatied "as early as 9000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharans and Afrasians who lived to the south of Egypt. Soon thereafter, pots spread to Egyptian sites, almost 2,000 years before the first pottery was made in the Middle East."(Christopher Ehret, "Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture," in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 25-27)
There is no evidence of biological affinity between the early ancient Egyptians and any "Libyan-type" Maghreb populations. It is however confirmed that the closest populations to the early ancient Egyptians are more southerly Africans such as Somalis and the Tigre:It began with native tribes hunting and gathering on the banks of the Nile (most probably nearly identical to Nubians), then a mass influx of Libyan-types stimulated cultural development during the drying up of the Sahara as they sought more fertile lands, which they found in Egypt.
Notice that the closest modern population to the ancient Egyptian sample (Naqada Bronze) are Somalis like the women below:
Tigre man
Notice in this dendrogram the closest populations to the early ancient Egypians are Nubians and modern Sub Saharan African populations (Tigre). You don't see any Middle Eastern affinity entre Egypt until the New Kingdom period. Also notice that modern Egyptians don't cluster anywhere near their early African Egyptian ancestors, but instead with European populations (Greece). This is obviously due to the noted Eurasian admixture during Egypt's late dynastic periods
By the time of the first pharaohs, most of the population likely consisted of a mix of these two stocks.
Menes is Dynastic Egypt's FIRST king
This assertion of being "race mixed" from the beginning is unfounded:It's not "racist" to deny that ancient Egyptians were black Africans, just as it is not "racist" to deny that they were caucasoid. They were a mixed race from the beginning.
"There is no archaeological, linguistic, or historical data which indicate a European or Asiatic invasion of, or migration to, the Nile Valley during First Dynasty times. Previous concepts about the origin of the First Dynasty Egyptians as being somehow external to the Nile Valley or less native are not supported by archaeology... In summary, the Abydos First Dynasty royal tomb contents reveal a notable craniometric heterogeneity. Southerners predominate. (Kieta, S. (1992) Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)""Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans." (S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)
"Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish) versus African (Kerma, Kebel Moya, Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are the most appropriate comparative regions which would have 'donated' people, along with the Sahara and Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking to these regions for population flow (see Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed less overall affinity to Palestinian and Byzantine remains than to other African series, especially Sudanese." (Keita 1993)
Seriously. Jesus was black too!!! So was Caesar and Augustus!
In fact, white people didn't exist until 800's AD.
Last edited by Darth Red; February 14, 2011 at 11:32 AM. Reason: continuity
Yes that was my very first post!
You know I was reading a previous thread about the same subject, and I was utterly digusted by the sheer amount of ignorance that some people were displaying about this topic. They were asserting their severely misguided opinions on the matter as fact. They were obviously showing that they knew next to nothing about the biological affinities of these ancient Africans. Yes that's right I said Africans! The source of life for this civilization was along the Nile in Upper Egypt (The South) not the Mediterranean.
Some of you want to make this fact appear as illogical by suggesting that people who share my view point also view non African civilization as black as well (Greece, Rome), when in reality denying this very obvious fact just shows how insecure those individuals really are. Egypt's was created and maintained by tropical Africans (black) either provide a scientifically valid argument to refute this or accept this mainstream view.
Last edited by MKGlouisville; February 06, 2011 at 03:50 PM.
First of all why are you bypassing scientific evidence relaying their biological affinities (what their actual skeletons looked like), just to base your opinion entirely on subjective artwork? Secondly why do you chose and obviously lightened version of that murral to relay your subject viewpoint?
You also strangely seem to be under the impression that the pitch black Dinka were the only type of Nubians? You are aware that Nubian was a general reference to all populations south of Egypt, which included the Ethiopian Nubians, the Beja Nubians (suchas the man below), The Sudanese Nubians
Beja
Sudanese Dinka
The Egyptians seem to resemble the dark reddish brown Beja/Ethiopian type of African rather than some fictional distinct North African Egyptian Eurasian type that you're insinuating.
As far as ancient Greek accounts go:I am sure I would remember if Herodotus described the Egyptians with skin like ebony or something
Aristotle states, "The hair of the egyptians is curlier than other nations."
"Those who are to black are cowards for instance the egyptians and ethiopians."
(Sources for Aristotle's quotes,Physiognomics VOL 6,11.)
Diodorus Siculus states: "The Ethiopians say that the egyptians are colonist sent out by ethiopians, as Osiris being the leader of the colony."
Diodorus: "The Aethiopians(Ethiopians) are high favored with the gods, they were the first of all men created by the gods and were the founders of the Egyptian Civilization."
They just like mainstream scientific reasearch group the ancient Egyptians with more southerly African populations.
First of all I would like the original text of Aristotle since I only found your quote in sites that discuss exactly the same thing as we do here. In Greek there are words that are usually translated as "black" when they mean dark-skinned (as in Arab color not African)"Those who are to black are cowards for instance the egyptians and ethiopians."
(Sources for Aristotle's quotes,Physiognomics VOL 6,11.)
Diodorus Siculus states: "The Ethiopians say that the egyptians are colonist sent out by ethiopians, as Osiris being the leader of the colony."
Diodorus: "The Aethiopians(Ethiopians) are high favored with the gods, they were the first of all men created by the gods and were the founders of the Egyptian Civilization."
Second, Diodorus states "The Ethiopians say" so yeah..... and did Diodorus actually travel to Egypt like Herodotus did?
Anyway, the fact that your first post was to resurect an long dead topic that was actually resurected one more time and died again does point out that you came here with an agenda, searched for the words "Africa" "Egypt" and "black" and posted accordingly with a wall of text and sources copy-pasted from black supremacism sites.
What's your opinion on Cleopatra while we are at it?