The African Origin of Ancient Egyptian Civilization

[MKGlouisville]

Do you even ing know what it an African ?


Geography =/= as Culture or civilization. African is the Civilization groups south of Sahara of Black colour, the mere ing fact that Egyptians in the same continent doesn't prove a crap.


I'm African and find this whole Afro-centrism stupid.

In response to my post which contained mainstream peer reviewed evidence, you respond with a senseless and unsubstantiated rant about God knows what. Nothing at all either addressing or refuting the evidence

Nope you fail again, the fact is that the Egyptian civilization moved South to meet the Nubians and influenced them and hence the cultural similarities. Before that there were no similarities.

You are another individual who feels the need to speak on things that you know not a damn thing about, but will assert your ignorant as truth:

"In the Predynastic period, the Egyptian and Nubian identities still shared many common traits derived from a common ancestry. The Naqada culture developed from the Badarian culture which, as the Tasian, was related to the Nubian Neolithic tradition (Gatto 2002; 2006c). Thus, the definition of what was Egyptian or Nubian at that time in the First Cataract region (and the southern part of Upper Egypt) is not so obvious: are the local cooking pots (shale-tempered ware), for example, Egyptian or Nubian?"

--GATTO M.C.(2009). Field season in the Aswan-Kom Ombo region of Egypt." Aswan-Kom Ombo. Archaeological Project. Report to: The Supreme Council of Antiquities, Egypt.

This is probably study that you'll likely ignore, to retain your ignorance on the subject.

And no the Nubians weren't the same as Egyptians.

Incorrect:

The earliest southern predynastic culture, Badari, owes key elements to post-desiccation Saharan and also perhaps "Nubian" immigration(Hassan 1988). Biologically these people were essentially the same (see Keita 1990).

[Menelik_I]

In response to my post which contained mainstream peer reviewed evidence, you respond with a senseless and unsubstantiated rant about God knows what. Nothing at all either addressing or refuting the evidence

You are another individual who feels the need to speak on things that you know not a damn thing about, but will assert your ignorant as truth:

This is probably study that you'll likely ignore, to retain your ignorance on the subject.

Incorrect:

Just because you can flood googled references don't mean a .

Please tell me how does all most Elements of the ''African'' Egyptian civilization isn't found no other African civilization, except for these which were in direct contact with it like Meroe

ETA:

No response ? as I suspected, this is the death of this dumb thread.

[MKGlouisville]

Not trying to validate MKGlouisville's claims but like it or not

In your own words what exactly am I claiming and does the evidence presented not already validate it with or without your consent?

As for what the Ancient Egyptians looked like, the Copts are probably the closest.

Lets establish the fact that Coptic Egyptians are Christian Egyptians, which is the only thing that distinguishes them from most other modern Egyptian. Are you aware of just how late in Egyptian history that Christianity entered the picture? The Late period if you didn't already know. Late period Egyptians as stated in the 2007 study JUST POSTED on the previous, were significantly different from earlier Egyptians due to those late period Egyptians absorbing migrating Mediterranean populations. Below is another study that finds the exact same thing:

"As a result of their facial prognathism, the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or \Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935, 1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, 1958, Strouhal, 1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). Cranial nonmetric trait studies have found this group to be similar to other Egyptians, including much later material (Berry and Berry, 1967, 1972), but also to be significantly different from LPD material (Berry et al., 1967). These results suggest that the EDyn do form a distinct morphological pattern. Their overlap with other Egyptian samples (in PC space, Fig. 2) suggests that although their morphology is distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other time periods. These results therefore do not support the Petrie concept of a "Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939; Derry, 1956). Instead, the results suggest that the Egyptian state was not the product of mass movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather that it was the result of primarily indigenous development combined with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military, or other contacts.
This evidence suggests that the process of state formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous process, but that it may have occurred in association with in-migration to the Abydos region of the Nile Valley. This potential in-migration may have occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK. A possible explanation is that the Egyptian state formed through increasing control of trade and raw materials, or due to military actions, potentially associated with the use of the Nile Valley as a corridor for prolonged small scale movements through the desert environment.
(Sonia R. Zakrzewski. (2007). Population Continuity or Population Change: Formation of the Ancient Egyptian State. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 132:501-509)

It doesn't matter who they were in contact with, Egypt is just as African as the Nubians even if they aren't "black"

How in the Hell do you conclude that the ancient Egyptians were not "black"? They migrated from tropical Africa (black Africa). They were tropically adapted like other black Africans, which based on ecological principle made them dark skinned Africans (what the Hell do we call dark skinned African if not black). The only populations to overlap with the early ancient Egyptians are the Nubians and other black Africans. There cultural base came from tropical Africa. All of this has been proven throughout this thread, with not one of these people attempting to even contest these findings.

In summary: You are indenial if you or anyone else believes that the early ancient Egyptians were not black!

[Menelik_I]

How in the Hell do you conclude that the ancient Egyptians were not "black"? They migrated from tropical Africa (black Africa). They were tropically adapted like other black Africans, which based on ecological principle made them dark skinned. The only populations to overlap with the early ancient Egyptians are the Nubians and other black Africans. There cultural base came from tropical Africa. All of this has been proven throughout this thread, with not one of these people attempting to even contest these findings.

In summary: You are indenial if you or anyone else believes that the early ancient Egyptians were not black!

Nope this is impossible because Black Africans are descendent of the Bantou migration which started in southern Nigeria.

See the map below, green trust.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Remember that the migration started around 2000 BC, at which time the Egyptians were already a civilization of another universe.

Plus Egyptian civilization was from Tropical, where is the homologous tropical Proto-Egyptian civilization ?

Still waiting.

[MKGlouisville]

Just because you can flood googled references don't mean a .

I would think that if anything it means that I can substantiate my argument with mainstream peer reviewed research, which conversely exposes your rants for the true pile of racist that you are spouting.

Just a question why in the Hell would an Afrocentric idea have so much mainstream support. Show me something that supports you Med. import .

Please tell me how does all most Elements of the ''African'' Egyptian civilization isn't found no other African civilization, except for these which were in direct contact with it like Meroe

Do some damn research before you open your mouth:

"The evidence also points to linkages to other northeast African peoples, not coincidentally approximating the modern range of languages closely related to Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group (formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These linguistic similarities place ancient Egyptian in a close relationship with languages spoken today as far west as Chad, and as far south as Somalia. Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).

Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised andwhite-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...

Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."

Source: Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28

[irontaino]

Well this is getting ing tiring and really laughable ... especially the stupid forum ''cornering thing''

When you give up the topic and resort to flaming, that's a definite indicator that you 're in a corner

But let try a last time :

1- Egypt had more in common with the fertile crescent, in civilization and commercial wise.

2- Egypt contact with Subsaharan Africa was first with Nubia, Egypt making contact with Nubia. If Egypt was an African civilization the flow would have been been inverse ie influence coming from Nubia to Egypt.

3- Apart from the cultural elements fruit of the Egyptian contact, Meroe had more in common with the rest of Sub-sahara African peoples, and in fact some traces of contacts exists.

4- Most sub-Saharan people derive from the same Bantou migration of 1000BC and have the same civilization base, clearly different from the Khoisan and Pigme who were there before them.

5- None of the Elements of Egyptians, might tombs, hieroglyphs etc were found in any other African people, except Meroe which got them by virtue of contact.

Egyptian civilization being in no way fruit of the Bantou group that gave birth to present Africa, present North Africa is more middle eastern and arab than anything else, therefore Egypt wasn't an African civilization.

Just because they're not black doesn't mean they're not African. The civilization was home grown in North Africa, the people behind the civilization are indigenous to North Africa, the culture was North African. Just because you think they're not black enough doesn't mean they weren't an African civilization.

[MKGlouisville]

Just because they're not black doesn't mean they're not African

How were they not black?

"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)

and

"must be placed in the context of hypotheses informed by archaeological, linguistic, geographic and other data. In such contexts, the physical anthropological evidence indicates that early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection, influenced by culture and geography." ("Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999). pp 328-332)

Why does this common ing sense truth seem to bother people who claim to not a have racial bias or blatant prejudice.

[irontaino]

How were they not black?



and



Why does this common ing sense truth seem to bother people who claim to not a have racial bias or blatant prejudice.

Look at the Copts, they're probably the closest to what the ancient Egyptians looked like.

[Menelik_I]

If you actually had a decent history teacher you would know that there were 2 major migratory events in the last 10 000 years in Africa :

1- Sahara desertification : the tribes who once lived in the Sahara had to leave the area some 10 000 years, most mostly going South and probably it is possible some went to the Nile Valley.

2- Bantou Migration : around 2000 BC a migratory flux from Southern Nigeria swept through Africa Southward and the descendant of these people are now Sub-saharan blacks. They displaced the native population, Pigmee in Central Africa and Khoisan in Austral Africa.

So simply Egyptians can't come from Tropical Africa for the freaking simple fact that the except that Bantou migration happened in 2000 BC, or the Egyptians would be Pigmee or in the most unlikely hypothesis Khoisans, which where the peoples in Central Africa.

Egyptians likely have influx of the fixed Saharan migration, but it is clear that the Egyptian civilization propagated from the Delta South. Also please provide the tropical Proto-egyptian tropical civilization.

@irontaino:

Just because they are in the same continent doesn't mean they are African.

Egyptian civilization had more contact and common traits with the ME fertile crescent, their only contact with Black Africa was with Meroe and Abyssinia. They are not An African civilization, much less a Black African civilization, although the later definition is indeed meaningless as you said.

[MKGlouisville]

Look at the Copts, they're probably the closest to what the ancient Egyptians looked like.

Copts = Modern Egyptians

Look at the damn dendrogram and plot chart presented the previous page. The only populations to overlap biologically with the ancient Egyptians are the sampled Ethiopian and Somali populations in the studies. Modern Egyptians are included in BOTH studies and they DO NOT overlap with the early ancient Egyptians. This is due to the fact that later and modern Egyptians have absorbed significant admixture from European and Middle Eastern migrants:

Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). -- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL
ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528

Are you just going to pretend that the numerous noted foreign migrations from the Middle East and Europe into Egypt during the Late Periods did nothing to alter their phenotype?

Do you have any answer for this? It's absurd to insist that modern Egyptians are the splitting image of their earliest Egyptian ancestors, after being presented with the evidence above.

"Cosmopolitan northern Egypt is less likely to have a population representative of the core indigenous population of the most ancient times".
- Keita (2005), pp. 564

or

"Black populations of the Horn of Africa (Tigré and Somalia) fit well into Egyptian variations." (Froment, Alain, Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne: l’apport de l’anthropobiologie, Archéo-Nil 2 (Octobre 1992), 79-98)

The reason why these scholars CONSISTENTLY state that Somalis and Ethiopians are the closest modern population in terms of phenotype with the early ancient Egyptians, is because that is the general region where the original ancient Egyptians came from. They didn't suddenly change appearance when the settled into Egypt, foreign admixture over time did this. Just admit it!

[irontaino]

.@irontaino:

Just because they are in the same continent doesn't mean they are African.

How is a civilization grown in Africa by indigenous North Africans with a North African culture NOT African?

Egyptian civilization had more contact and common traits with the ME fertile crescent, their only contact with Black Africa was with Meroe and Abyssinia. They are not An African civilization, much less a Black African civilization, although the later definition is indeed meaningless as you said.

Somalis, Bejas, Tuaregs and most Ethiopians....these are black people who have more in common with Jews and Arabs than they do with Bantus....by your logic, they aren't Africans.

[MKGlouisville]

1- Sahara desertification : the tribes who once lived in the Sahara had to leave the area some 10 000 years, most mostly going South and probably it is possible some went to the Nile Valley.

It is a ing fact that they settled on the Nile. If you took the ing time to read my peer reviewed sources presented on the previous page then you would have seen where it was proven to have been instrumental in the development of the Egyptian state. Not a ing speculation as you are making it out to be.

Read the ing text from the Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt that I posted when I acknowledged your BS.

2- Bantou Migration : around 2000 BC a migratory flux from Southern Nigeria swept through Africa Southward and the descendant of these people are now Sub-saharan blacks. They displaced the native population, Pigmee in Central Africa and Khoisan in Austral Africa

Point Being? What are you saying? That this is the only type of black African?

but it is clear that the Egyptian civilization propagated from the Delta South. Also please provide the tropical Proto-egyptian tropical civilization.

More ignorant :

"From Petrie onwards, it was regularly suggested that despite the evidence of Predynastic cultures, Egyptian civilization of the 1st Dynasty appeared suddenly and must therefore have been introduced by an invading foreign 'race'. Since the 1970s however, excavations at Abydos and Hierakonpolis have clearly demonstrated the indigenous, Upper Egyptian roots of early civilization in Egypt.(Ian Shaw ed. (2003) The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt By Ian Shaw. Oxford University Press, page 40-63)

Just because they are in the same continent doesn't mean they are African.

They are African by virtue of the fact of them being indigenous to the African continent.

Egyptian civilization had more contact and common traits with the ME fertile crescent, their only contact with Black Africa was with Meroe and Abyssinia.

I'll play along for now:

"A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apil-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."

"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)."
(Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508)

[Menelik_I]

How is a civilization grown in Africa by indigenous North Africans with a North African culture NOT African?

Yeha it is all about geography

Civilization are human phenomenon not a geographic.

If I cross half the world and ''contaminate'' a people with my civilization, then we are similar no matter the distance that separate us.

Similarly even if we are nearby geographically if we are dissimilar culture we aren't the same civilization .. roughly.

Somalis, Bejas, Tuaregs and most Ethiopians....these are black people who have more in common with Jews and Arabs than they do with Bantus....by your logic, they aren't Africans.

So you ignore 2000 years of Historical process and use current African people to make a point about the situation in the past ... sweet

Do you know how many things happened since the fall of Egypt to this day ?

[irontaino]

Yeha it is all about geography

And the people and the culture, both of which are indigenous to North Africa.

So you ignore 2000 years of Historical process and use current African people to make a point about the situation in the past ... sweet

2000 years ago, these people still had more in common with Arabs and Jews. I'm trying to make sense of your logic...or lack thereof.

[Menelik_I]

Point Being? What are you saying? That this is the only type of black African?

The Bantou migration mark the propagation of Iron and agriculture into the continent, if your Egyptians came from Tropical Africa they would be hunter-gatherers at best.

@irontaino:

Civilization isn't geography and it is getting tiring to make this ing point.

Where the Greeco-Indo-Bactrian kindgoms Asian civilizations ? I'm ing sure they were nearby India your know ?

Except for the access route of the Nile and red sea Egypt had no access to the rest of Africa, and had more ing ties, trade and influence from the Middle east.

It was more easier to travel from the Delta to Babilone than to make similar distance journey in any vector inside Africa except nile and red sea.

[irontaino]

@irontaino:

Civilization isn't geography and it is getting tiring to make this ing point.

Where the Greeco-Indo-Bactrian kindgoms Asian civilizations ? I'm ing sure they were nearby India your know?

Greeks weren't indigenous to Persia, India, the Levant and Egypt, the Egyptians are indigenous to North Africa...bad analogy.

Except for the access route of the Nile and red sea Egypt had no access to the rest of Africa, and had more ing ties, trade and influence from the Middle east.

And?

It was more easier to travel from the Delta to Babilone than to make similar distance journey in any vector inside Africa except nile and red sea.

1st, how does that make them less African? All this pissing and moaning about geography and you're trying to say trade routes are civilization. 2nd, take a chill pill, friend.

[Menelik_I]

And?

this thread is ing moronic, I stand by this assessment and OP.

[irontaino]

this thread is ing moronic, I stand by this assessment and OP.

Try to come up with a better argument than trade routes = not African.

[Menelik_I]

Try to come up with a better argument than trade routes = not African.

Why ? you are happy to shove your geography manuals up you know where

[irontaino]

Why ? you are happy to shove your geography manuals up you know where

If that's what you like....you also ignore the simple fact that, geography aside, the people are indigenous to the region and that the culture is as well. That's where things start getting herpy derpy.