I've played this game (and love it) with the romans a few times. Its time for a new challenge, so I thought I would try out the Greek Cities.....anyone have any battle advice? I'm struggling trying to decide how to best use them in the field.
I've played this game (and love it) with the romans a few times. Its time for a new challenge, so I thought I would try out the Greek Cities.....anyone have any battle advice? I'm struggling trying to decide how to best use them in the field.
"....and I have an angry mob, that will roast your men of quality in the ashes of the senate house."
-Mark Antony from the HBO series ROME
Look in the guide sticky and look at the greek guide.
Under the patronage of Roman_Man#3, Patron of Ishan
Click for my tools and tutorials
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -----Albert Einstein
Get Spartans as soon as possible.
<<Un collègue; un ami.>>
The Spartans are fairly crap in RS1.5 for their price, 1 turn recruitment and AOR.
u dont neccesarily need spartans, i used an army with a few units of syracusan hoplites in it to attack the romans as a suicide attack when i was playing as the greek cities. The army managed to take 2 roman cities with phyrric victories before the number of casualties hurt them too badly and they were destroyed, but at least i got a load of money from relocating the populaces and destryoing the buildings.
The Armoured Hoplites have a 'push-back' value of ~3; the Spartans have a 4, the highest non-cavalry value in the game. They can literally, when they impact the enemy, kill people by hitting them with their bodies. Three units of Spartans can, theoretically, take on an three times their number if used correctly. Of course, you have valid points. They are extremely expensive to recruit and maintain, they take 1 turn to recruit, and they can only be recruited in Sparta. Comes down to this, in my eyes; pay for two militia hoplites who will run when they hit 30 men left, or recruit Spartan hoplites who will never run; never retreat; never surrender, and looked wicked cool?The Spartans are fairly crap in RS1.5 for their price, 1 turn recruitment and AOR.
<<Un collègue; un ami.>>
If it's Romans, you should try using the militia to go in first, so they are the ones that eat the pila.
As an added bonus, as you take their cities, you can depopulate those settlements further by turning everyone into militia. Nothing quite says "haha Romans" like turning Rome into a ghost town because everyone left to go swarm the other roman settlements.
You're exaggerating. I've had units get down to literally 2 or 3 people. When they run at 30 soldiers (which is already very few) it's usually the case that I've been using them for something like catching pilas. In which case they can still catch pilas with their backs ... (and then the whole unit heals post-battle).
Well, I didn't have an exact number to go on really. Usually, militia hoplites rout (for me at least) at around 10-20. Sometimes, however, a cavalry charge from behind that catches me by surprise (I was most likely watching the hockey game ) will break their will, and they'll rout with 50-60 guys left.You're exaggerating. I've had units get down to literally 2 or 3 people. When they run at 30 soldiers (which is already very few) it's usually the case that I've been using them for something like catching pilas. In which case they can still catch pilas with their backs ... (and then the whole unit heals post-battle).
<<Un collègue; un ami.>>
I use militia with even new generals. One thing that helps is having a city hoplite around, which helps increase morale. What's really important is to not get them in a situation where they'll take losses quickly. A unit can literally be shot down to the last man, but slowly, wheras if it loses 50% in just a few seconds, they'll run. From light cavalry, too - sheesh.
Definitely, though, if you have the right tactics, you can easily get militia to be steady at possibly 50/242 men left (new general). My faction leader, though, can actually get them to fight down to 1 person and still be "eager" - which actually doesn't help much, since if they ran at 20 or so, I could get a unit of reinforcements in faster.
Archers (volley fire) and cavalry (charges) are the most dangerous enemies. For the former, make sure the unit faces the archers and try to pull them out into a thin line. Even if enemies hit them, it's fine if you have help. For cavalry, don't ever get hit in the side. Rather than that, have your men run and counter-charge. I think you'll lose 25%, possibly, but the unit tends to be confident as it wasn't attacked in the side and also probably got some charge bonus off. Also, the cavalry will be stuck in the middle of all those stabby stabby spears.
Defensive/Guard mode is definitely the best way to have miltia take on heavy infantry. Especially the Romans. The thing is you'll want your men to be in position, and have the enemy come to them. Because sometimes if they're all spread out, when you turn on guard mode, they'll form up facing the wrong way. Similarly, to keep them cohesive, don't run if you're planning to form up. Just walk slowly and then form up. Bonus of this is that Romans will throw all their pila (they're on fire at will). Yeah, it'll decimate the first unit, but if they leave, say, 2 units of romans pila-less, it'll be worth it. That and SOMEONE would die to those pila anyway ... >.> Whoever it is, the pila has a high attack + AP, so anyone will take some pretty horrendous casualties walking up to Romans or just in general fighting them - since they can throw pila while engaged in melee combat.
As greek cities, I think you can train Athenian Marines, which are long ranged archers - so use those. Also, onagers are quickly trainable at Athens, so use those as well. There are certain tricks you can use with onagers and long-range archers that let you shred enemies who guard settlement walls. In some cases, killing maybe 16 out of 18 units in a settlement with just arrows (the AI tasks one unit to guard the city square, and the general unit tends to hang out there too). The greeks are rather well placed to kill Macedon and quickly start killing the Romans (especially with the settlement trick). Egypt, too.
Speaking of archers, pinning enemies against a unit of militia and then shooting them in the back with archers works very well. It's my favorite way to kill Spartans, since they hated archers. Surprisingly, if the men are in an orderly formation and are charged by the spartans, they'll lose only a few people to them. Takes about 4-5 volleys of arrows to get the Spartans to rout. Romans die even easier - less armor.
Another one is to have two or even three units gang up on one of the enemy - they'll all share losses, so they're more stable. To some extent, being able to do this is dependant on being able to catch an enemy half-stack with a full stack of yours. 3 units of militia can kill a unit of Spartans and take only 50% casualties (or 1.5 units worth). Probably because being stabbed in the back (or shield side) prevents the defender from using their defense skill.
If you have BattleSurgery (get a Doctor/Chirgurgeon from an Academy +priest of Apollo) then it seems people who die to projectiles (ie: arrows or PILA) tend to heal a lot. Like - a while unit worth will heal. As a result, don't feel guilty if you lose some units to pila, or horse archers (put them out for the archers to target, while your own archers shoot them down) similarly for being shot at by your own guys - if they're pinning something good like triarii, a litle friendly fire isn't a real problem - and they might heal back anyway ...
Last edited by Alavaria; October 10, 2009 at 07:40 PM.
A note, Alavaria; I like your idea of using guard mode against heavy infantry. What I personally would add to it would be to switch 'Guard Mode' off when your men start to lose formation; the hoplites will then surge forward and regain the ground they lost.
<<Un collègue; un ami.>>
Not necessarily. If they're in a dense formation, the might get more attacks in. Definitely, it is better to have a unit come from behind them (or standing behind them. Regaining ground isn't really important ... your men tire very little in guard mode, since they don't move much - whereas the enemy will hopefully get very tired. Also, even if the formation is being pushed through by the enemy, sometimes you won't take many losses. Especially in narrow streets, where the enemy can't start nibbling on the formation's flanks.
More importantly, though, if you've got men coming from behind, sometimes the enemy will turn around and attack them instead of your unit that's on guard mode - in that case, definitely turn it off, as they're not "tanking" the enemy anymore.
I should also add that hoplites from Athens/Corinth/Rhodes all have swords, which I believe are worse than their spears (even against infantry). So, I would suggest using those from Crete (or Pergamum/Syracuse).
Spartans also have swords, which I would guess does less damage against infantry than their sword ... and seeing them use swords against cavalry is pretty sad.
Militia in front of the phalanx hoplites is also very effective. The latter's spears are long enough to cover the back two ranks of the militia. I suggest putting militia 5-deep so so. The enemy has to kill or push the formation back 3 ranks, and then (after being bled a little and tired) the hoplites with long spears will be able to hold them off. With militia in between the speartip and the hoplite using it, this is very hard to break. Even spartans seem to have problems pushing through (though they can and have).
Even funnier is if you have those merc hoplites that use pikes. Very tough to get through.
Last edited by Alavaria; October 10, 2009 at 07:56 PM.
My point is that you're not going to take over the world with Spartans or militia. It'll be up to the armoured hoplites, who also seem to have fairly bad stats. I think the whole Greek Cities faction is underpowered. The fact is that a unit of Chosen Axemen will give spartans a run for their money, they cost half as much, you can make nine a turn from a single city and they can be recruited almost anywhere.
I edited them in my game to give hoplites a stat that makes them stick together and push (when out of guard mode) rather than spread out and fight individually. Makes them much more effective and realistic imo.
For being a unit that is 'beyond elite' they are absolutely useless except for desparate home defence which is why I edited them. Also, I don't want to hear anything from anyone about "Spartans of this time frame were not so good." The game is about changing history and so a Sparta that regained it's former glory isn't going to retain crap hoplites haha.
Last edited by keebz; October 10, 2009 at 10:54 PM.
I'm interested in what you did, as I did something similar (I believe so, anyway).I edited them in my game to give hoplites a stat that makes them stick together and push (when out of guard mode) rather than spread out and fight individually. Makes them much more effective and realistic imo.
Well, yes, they're beyond elite, but the 1 turn recruitment kills them. In my game, I made them a 0 turn recruitment unit but upped their cost and upkeep quite a tad.For being a unit that is 'beyond elite' they are absolutely useless except for desparate home defence which is why I edited them. Also, I don't want to hear anything from anyone about "Spartans of this time frame were not so good." The game is about changing history and so a Sparta that regained it's former glory isn't going to retain crap hoplites haha.
<<Un collègue; un ami.>>
soldier greek_hoplite_spartan_pylos, 60, 0, 4, 0.18
I think the 0.18 is the amount of separation allowed during combat or something.
Ah...do you have BI/ALEX?
<<Un collègue; un ami.>>
Nope. I'm trying to find the thread where I found out about this stat though.
I've got some screenshots to show the difference though. Is yours something like this?
http://i37.tinypic.com/6z0xuo.jpg
They're trying to stick together with the 0.18 added
http://i36.tinypic.com/29nte1d.jpg
Without the extra figure they spread out and fight individually. They really do push the enemy back in this mode but they over extend themselves.
Last edited by keebz; October 11, 2009 at 12:17 AM.
Spoiler for Mulling abt Militia:
Isn't that their radius? Smaller radius units fight a lot better as combat becomes 2 on 1 or something. Small circles vs large circles.
It's usually 0.4 by default if you don't have anything ...
From the Complete EDU Guide:
soldier unit_model, soldiers, extras, mass (,radius,height)Basically, where there used to only stand 1 hoplite, you've made the unit able to jam 2 into the same space.[radius](may not be visible) : Hidden attribute radius of the unit. The default value is 0.4. It's the area surrounding each single soldier that he "occupies" as the engine perceives it (not visually that is). Small radius makes a unit fight better, in that it allows soldiers to fight more closely to each other, resulting in more men of the small-radius unit fighting against fewer of the enemy one's.
Oddly enough, you kinda get the same effect if you put two units of militia right on top of one another (or if one of them backs into another because some, say, Spartans, are pushing them).
Last edited by Alavaria; October 11, 2009 at 12:45 AM.
Made me laugh
Isn't that their radius? Smaller radius units fight a lot better as combat becomes 2 on 1 or something. Small circles vs large circles.
That's it. No units have a radius set in this mod as far as I've seen and I missed it from XGM.
I forgot the obligatory 300 shot
Spoiler Alert, click show to read: