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Thread: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

  1. #1
    Suppanut's Avatar Idea-O-Matic
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    Default XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    I open this thread for you, our fellows in forum, to suggest yours own candidates to be one of wonders for factions in our mod of Extended Culture 4.

    We would have about 16 wonders(1 for each factions) in XC4 and we will always looking for the better ones.

    What you need to tell us in order to suggest us.
    1) The candidated:
    could be....
    - Building
    - Artifact
    - Event or Edict
    - Others with cultural impact that would be interesting

    2) Impacted of Wonders:
    class in 3 levels
    - Major; highest cost and longest building time
    - Moderate; moderate cost and moderate building time
    - Minor; cheapest cost and shortest building time

    3) Place where the candidate setted and faction/culture it belong to

    4) Brief data about candidate, with link would be good

    Here are the candidates that have been suggest so far...and bonus will yet to be our secret.


    Roman: 1 candidate and counting
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1) The Law of the Twelve Tables (Roma)
    The Law of the Twelve Tables (Lex Duodecim Tabularum) formed the centrepiece of the constitution of the Roman Republic and the core of the mos maiorum, “custom of the forefathers”. The Twelve Tables were drawn up on twelve ivory tablets, which were posted in the Roman Forum so that all Romans could read and know them since 449 BCE. The later development of Roman law comprehended more than a thousand years of jurisprudence, the theory and philosophy of law. After all Rome’s most important contribution to European legal culture was not the enactment of well-drafted statutes, but the emergence of a class of professional jurists and of a legal science.



    Carthage: 1 candidate and counting
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1) The armouries of Carthage (Carthago)
    Historically the carthaginian made use or large mercenary armies.
    While this started in the classical sense of hiring warbands for a campaign, later on it became an institution. To support this and reward its most loyal troops Carthage created a complex consisting of barracks for 40000 soldiers and 200 elephants plus a vast armoury, containing panoplies for over 200000 soldiers.

    This allowed the city to be able to field a well equipped (if not well trained) force at any time, soon to be mimicked on a smaller scale by its colonies. By building the great armouries the player will start this process, allowing the punic armies to receive superior equipment faction-wide.



    Egypt: 2 candidates and counting
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1) Stele of Rossetta (Alexandria)
    Ptolemaic tradition always favoured interracial resettling and integration.
    [text to be expanded]

    With this building the player establishes a tradition of royal decrees published in all native languages, ensuring and helping loyalty.


    2) Discovery of Indian Ocean's Monsoon Wind (In Berenice, port of Thebes)
    By many attempt of high sea expedition in Arabian Sea, Now nature of Indian Ocean's Monsoon Wind is discovered and shorten the time to of trade expedition around Arabian Sea from India to Egypt.

    The ancient writers credited Hippalus and Eudoxus of Cyzicus for discovering the direct route from the Red Sea to India over the Indian Ocean by plotting the scheme of the sea and the correct location of the trade ports along the Indian coast. Pliny the Elder claimed that Hippalus discovered not the route but the monsoon wind also called Hippalus (the south-west monsoon wind) while Strabo and Posidonius credited Eudoxus of Cyzicus for discover the wind. The wind had already been known in Hellenistic times and had before been used by Arab and Indian sailors to cross the Indian Ocean. The first time Hellenistic world exploited Monsoon wind is by Eudoxus of Cyzicus in 118 or 116 BC.

    The writer of the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea credited this direct route to India greatly contributed to the prosperity of trade contacts between the Roman province of Aegyptus and India from the 1st century BCE onwards. From Red Sea ports like Berenice large ships crossed the Indian Ocean to the Tamil kingdoms of the Pandyas, Cholas and Cheras in present day Kerala and Tamil Nadu.



    Macedonia: 1 candidate and counting
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1) Megale Makedonia (Pella)
    By pursuing a global hellenization policy following Anthiochius IV's steps the player is now able to more easily hellenize his domains.



    Greek Cites States: no candidate yet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Seleucid: The Second Proclamation of Opis
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Following Alexander's first Proclamation at Opis in which he started the process of integration of eastern soldiers in the macedonian army, the Seleucid emperors slowly continued the process both on the civilian and military side.

    By the time of Magnesia the process was well advanced and eastern nobility was integrated both in the civilian and military sphere, giving the empire strength, although unfortunately undermined by internal succession struggles with each following emperor.

    Effect: +1 law in all eastern settlements



    Bactria: 1 candidate and counting
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1) Greco-Buddhism and Birth of the First Buddha Image

    Greco-Buddhism refers to the cultural syncretism between Hellenistic culture of Greek and Persian and Buddhism, which developed between the 4th century BCE and the 5th century CE in the area which that time was called Bactria and India. It was a cultural consequence of interactions begun by Greek invasion of India by Alexander the Great and carried further by the establishment of Indo-Greek rule and the hellenized empire of the Kushans. Which whole series of interaction end up in result of founding of Mahayana Buddhism.

    There are many evidences and consequnces of interaction between Greek and Buddhist thought included the "Milinda Panha", a Buddhist discourse in the platonic style, held between king Menander and the Buddhist monk Nagasena. Buddhist tradition also recognizes Menander as one of the great benefactors of the faith, together with Asoka and Kanishka. Greek's influence also imprinted the concept of "Man-God" into Buddha's personality and deitified him as a god.

    Greek influence also has been suggested the definition of the Bodhisattva ideal, between the 1st century BC and the 1st century AD, which redefine Buddhism around the universal Bodhisattva ideal, and its six central virtues of generosity, morality, patience, effort, meditation and, first and foremost, wisdom. These qualities are reminiscent the Greek Stoic philosophy. This marked the emergence of Mahayana doctrines of Buddhism, which may have begun around the 1st century BCE in northwestern India and Greek also carried this form of Buddhism that passed north and east along the Silk Road.

    Later during the Hellenized Empire of Tocharian tribe of Kushan. Buddhism school which we now called them Mahayana start to officially included many of Zoroastrian, Greek, and Brahmanic deities into pantheon of Buddhism after long time of unofficial co-worshiping and religious syncretism, such as Indra, Zoroastrian's Zurvan and Brahmanic's Brahma as Buddhist version of Brahma, Persian's Mithras influence the creation of future Buddha and Savior Maitreya, Herakles as Vajrapani the Protector of Buddha, North wind Boreas, Tyche as the mother deity Hariti, etc. Concept of Persian's Paradise also influence cosmology of the "Pure Land" as well. And during reigned of Kanishka of Kushan, the Fourth Buddhist Council had convened and marked official birth of Mahayana Buddhism and this new syncretic form of Buddhism expanded fully into Eastern Asia soon after these events.

    The most noticeable effect of Greco-Buddhism laid in art work which had center of creation is Gandhara which definitely Buddhist, while most motifs were of Western Asiatic or Hellenistic origin. But among all of art concept of Gandhara, the most important type of art work for most of nowadays schools is concept of anthropomorphic representation of the Buddha which now called "Buddha Image".

    Before innovation of Buddha Image, Buddhist art was "aniconic": the Buddha was only represented through his symbols like an empty throne, the Bodhi tree, the Buddha's footprints, the prayer wheel. This according to one of the Buddha’s saying that discouraged representations of himself after the extinction of his body. But the Greek seem probably not feeling bound by these restrictions, and because of their cult of form, the Greeks were the first to attempt a sculptural representation of the Buddha by combining the image of a Greek God-King Apollo, the deified founder of the Indo-Greek Kingdom, Demetrius, with the traditional attributes of the Buddha.

    Many of the stylistic elements in the representations of the Buddha, even in present days, point to Greek influence: the Greco-Roman toga-like wavy robe covering both shoulders, the contrapposto stance of the upright figures and the stylized Mediterranean curly hair and top-knot apparently derived from the style of the Belvedere Apollo, and the measured quality of the faces, all rendered with strong artistic realism of Greek art.

    The Greek stylistic influence on the representation of the Buddha, through its idealistic realism, also permitted a very accessible, understandable and attractive visualization of the ultimate state of enlightenment described by Buddhism, allowing it reach a wider audience. During the following centuries, this anthropomorphic representation of the Buddha defined the canon of Buddhist art, but progressively evolved to incorporate more Indian and Asian elements.

    The interaction of Greek and Buddhist cultures operated over several centuries until it ended in the 5th century AD with the invasions of the White Huns, and later the expansion of Islam, but its influences lived on to present day in Buddhism.



    Germans
    : 2 candidates and counting
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1) Externsteine (Teutoburgum)
    The Extern Stones (Externsteine) are a distinctive rock formation located in the Teutoburg Forest in northern Germania. The megalithic site is a natural outcropping of five limestone pillars that situated by a very ancient trade route, oak trees grew there abundantly and there were numerous springs and healing mineral wells in the Weser Hills (Weserbergland). It is generally assumed that from the very earliest of times Externsteine was a centre of religious activity for the Germanic and Celtic peoples and their predecessors.

    Those pillars have been modified and decorated by humans over the centuries in a variety of fascinating and mysterious ways: holes were drilled for no apparent reason; stairs lead to dead ends; platforms serve no clear purpose; and a large space faces the midsummer sunrise. The holes may have symbolized entry-points into the earth to release its energies, as at other rock sanctuaries. One large room is believed to have been used to initiate priests in the cult.


    2) The Sleza and Radunia Complex (Logus Lugi, Carrodunum)
    Sleza and Radunia, two peaks sacred for many ancient cultures in the area, were described by Ptolemy as Asciburgius in Magna Germania. A region where the Sleza Massif is situated was later known as Lower Silesia. Those peaks became widely known centres of worship at the time of the Lusatian Culture around 600 BCE. Who those people were, what language they spoke, and what they believed remains largely a mystery. Atop Mt. Sleza (Zobten) and Mt. Radunia, the second highest summit of the massif, they built cult rings surrounding their holy places. Mt. Sleza is believed to have been associated with a solar cult and Mt. Radunia with a lunar cult.

    Such rites drew extensively upon the symbolism of fertility and natural cycles. The famous cult statues carved out of granite may also date back to that time. Around the 5th century BCE, following a Scythian invasion, the Lusatian cult at Sleza disappeared. Many later groups of settlers like the Lugians who lived in the basin of upper Odra and Vistula rivers regarded these mountains equally sacred as their predecessors. Besides the sun and lunar cults, local tribes revered trees, stars, and atmospheric phenomena like rains, storms, and winds.



    Gauls: no candidate yet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Spain: no candidate yet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Scythia: no candidate yet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Thrace: no candidate yet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Pontus: no candidate yet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Parthia: no candidate yet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Armenia: no candidate yet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Saba: no candidate yet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    All cultures count now have 8 candidates and counting.

    And still need more candidates.
    Last edited by Zarax; April 11, 2014 at 06:44 AM.
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  2. #2
    Anakarsis's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    Thought that you said that Stonehedge went for the Gauls....

    Saba: one logical one was the Kaaba. The stone was a very important religious symbol well before the Islam. As we are treating with a symbol of a living religion, high respect is recommended. But i think that it is a good option.

    For the Greek, the Statue at Olympia should calify, but i rather consider the entire Olimpian fields for the olimpian games.

  3. #3
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    Stonehedge is a special building but not a wonder.

    A XC wonder is not exactly a building but rather something that will define the success of a faction.
    For Carthage its armouries meant that they could have superior equipment for their troops, the macedonian one gives them "cultural superiority" and so on.
    The Best Is Yet To Come:

  4. #4
    Anakarsis's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    Got it

    Still i insist with the olympian games and the Kaaba, the first can give a bonus on troops experience and make the characters grow faster in the "Hellenic" trait, or even give new traits. The late may improve bonus to trade caravans and give the Saba caravans and even ports a bonus to public order or hapiness due to the religious spread. The link between religion and trade routes in arab and afro-arab cultures also predates the islam.

  5. #5

    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anakarsis View Post
    Got it

    Still i insist with the olympian games and the Kaaba, the first can give a bonus on troops experience and make the characters grow faster in the "Hellenic" trait, or even give new traits. The late may improve bonus to trade caravans and give the Saba caravans and even ports a bonus to public order or hapiness due to the religious spread. The link between religion and trade routes in arab and afro-arab cultures also predates the islam.
    The Olympic games may be worthwhile, but the Kaaba is already represented by a special temple in Carna, Ma'in.

    Expand your borders, a mod based on XGM 5.

  6. #6
    Suppanut's Avatar Idea-O-Matic
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    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    Kaaba already exist as Special temple of Forge.
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  7. #7
    Anakarsis's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    Yeah i noted it. Sorry i did not play with the Sabaeans too much

  8. #8
    Anakarsis's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    For Rome there is plenty of options: The Capitolium, The Camp of Mars, the Praetorium, the Agrarian Reform of the Gracos (first intent to apply virtually the modern concept of Agrarian Reform, would improve hapiness and population growth, and stronly reduce squalor), Citizenship for the colonies (only apply in Spain, Gaul, Illyria),

    What about a "Red Sea Trade" for Saba? they were the only ones with access to the resources of Africa through this trade

    Question: the old classical seven Marvels were be still there?

  9. #9

    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    The Seven Wonders of the Ancient World are already represented in game.

    Expand your borders, a mod based on XGM 5.

  10. #10
    LucretiusTC's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    I am not sure about the concept of “Wonders”, I would rather use some other term like “Cultural Innovations” that depend upon the recombination of already existing elements in culture.

    At first, here is something about Roman legal system.

    The Law of the Twelve Tables (Lex Duodecim Tabularum) formed the centrepiece of the constitution of the Roman Republic and the core of the mos maiorum, “custom of the forefathers”. The Twelve Tables were drawn up on twelve ivory tablets, which were posted in the Roman Forum so that all Romans could read and know them since 449 BCE. The later development of Roman law comprehended more than a thousand years of jurisprudence, the theory and philosophy of law. After all Rome’s most important contribution to European legal culture was not the enactment of well-drafted statutes, but the emergence of a class of professional jurists and of a legal science.

    In this game, the Romans could be seen as good organizers and practical people who believed in law and order.

    Then here are some general ideas about Hellenistic Kingdoms.

    Hellenistic Ruler Cult - The principal characteristics of the Hellenistic monarchies were the personal nature of the monarch's power, the principle of hereditary succession, and the cult of the monarch. The Hellenistic state was identified with each omnipotent and independent monarch, whose royal decrees usually had the validity of the law.

    Macedonia - The Macedonian state under the Antigonids remained very similar to that of the Classical period: the state consisted of the Macedonian 'ethnos' and the king, who, in Macedonia, was not deified as in the Hellenistic kingdoms of the East. The king exercised his authority with the help of the military assembly, which was constituted by the local aristocracy, whose opinions were taken into consideration, in order to maintain the consistency and prosperity of the Macedonians.

    The Seleucid Empire - In general, the Seleucids attempted to enforce the Greek element, mainly through the founding of cities, and the same time they were tolerant to the rest of the populations and respected their languages and religions. Moreover, they ceded to local rulers certain rights similar to those of the satraps during the earlier Persian Empire, by appointing them as rulers of large administrative districts.

    Those special buildings that are part of the temple system can be found in this old thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=120148&page=30

    Luc.

  11. #11
    Anakarsis's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    i like the law of the twelve tables, its the first example of law science, and incorporates the principles of equality before the law and of presumption of innocence, that are baselines of modern jurisprudence and that were mostly ignored for several centuries past the fall of the Empire.

  12. #12
    Suppanut's Avatar Idea-O-Matic
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    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    The Law of the Twelve Tables is now candidate for Roman wonders.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    Last edited by Dog Fart; October 11, 2009 at 09:02 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    Scratch that. Baktria fell long before that.

  15. #15
    Anakarsis's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    The giant Buddha statues in Afghanistan were erected by the Kushan Kings, the Kushan were a kingdom formed by a confederacy of steppe iranian-speakers or eastern scythian, probably also tocharians (Suppa knows better). Among the many tribes that overthrow the Graeco-Baktrian kings, some settled and their upper clases took buddhism teachings, and they formed a kingdom that lasted from 135 AC until aproximately 400 AD when the Huns (White Huns) destroyed them.

  16. #16

    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    Yeah it's been a while since I've seen that show. It came to mind because they explained how the first Buddhist statues came from Bactria and were similiar to statues of Appolo. Before, Buddha was represented with a tree... or so the documentary said. It's quite an impressive site, just the wrong era.

  17. #17
    Suppanut's Avatar Idea-O-Matic
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    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    I proposed this one for Bactria as wonders.

    Greco-Buddhism and Birth of the First Buddha Image

    Greco-Buddhism refers to the cultural syncretism between Hellenistic culture of Greek and Persian and Buddhism, which developed between the 4th century BCE and the 5th century CE in the area which that time was called Bactria and India. It was a cultural consequence of interactions begun by Greek invasion of India by Alexander the Great and carried further by the establishment of Indo-Greek rule and the hellenized empire of the Kushans. Which whole series of interaction end up in result of founding of Mahayana Buddhism.

    There are many evidences and consequnces of interaction between Greek and Buddhist thought included the "Milinda Panha", a Buddhist discourse in the platonic style, held between king Menander and the Buddhist monk Nagasena. Buddhist tradition also recognizes Menander as one of the great benefactors of the faith, together with Asoka and Kanishka. Greek's influence also imprinted the concept of "Man-God" into Buddha's personality and deitified him as a god.

    Greek influence also has been suggested the definition of the Bodhisattva ideal, between the 1st century BC and the 1st century AD, which redefine Buddhism around the universal Bodhisattva ideal, and its six central virtues of generosity, morality, patience, effort, meditation and, first and foremost, wisdom. These qualities are reminiscent the Greek Stoic philosophy. This marked the emergence of Mahayana doctrines of Buddhism, which may have begun around the 1st century BCE in northwestern India and Greek also carried this form of Buddhism that passed north and east along the Silk Road.

    Later during the Hellenized Empire of Tocharian tribe of Kushan. Buddhism school which we now called them Mahayana start to officially included many of Zoroastrian, Greek, and Brahmanic deities into pantheon of Buddhism after long time of unofficial co-worshiping and religious syncretism, such as Indra, Zoroastrian's Zurvan and Brahmanic's Brahma as Buddhist version of Brahma, Persian's Mithras influence the creation of future Buddha and Savior Maitreya, Herakles as Vajrapani the Protector of Buddha, North wind Boreas, Tyche as the mother deity Hariti, etc. Concept of Persian's Paradise also influence cosmology of the "Pure Land" as well. And during reigned of Kanishka of Kushan, the Fourth Buddhist Council had convened and marked official birth of Mahayana Buddhism and this new syncretic form of Buddhism expanded fully into Eastern Asia soon after these events.

    The most noticeable effect of Greco-Buddhism laid in art work which had center of creation is Gandhara which definitely Buddhist, while most motifs were of Western Asiatic or Hellenistic origin. But among all of art concept of Gandhara, the most important type of art work for most of nowadays schools is concept of anthropomorphic representation of the Buddha which now called "Buddha Image".

    Before innovation of Buddha Image, Buddhist art was "aniconic": the Buddha was only represented through his symbols like an empty throne, the Bodhi tree, the Buddha's footprints, the prayer wheel. This according to one of the Buddha’s saying that discouraged representations of himself after the extinction of his body. But the Greek seem probably not feeling bound by these restrictions, and because of their cult of form, the Greeks were the first to attempt a sculptural representation of the Buddha by combining the image of a Greek God-King Apollo, the deified founder of the Indo-Greek Kingdom, Demetrius, with the traditional attributes of the Buddha.

    Many of the stylistic elements in the representations of the Buddha, even in present days, point to Greek influence: the Greco-Roman toga-like wavy robe covering both shoulders, the contrapposto stance of the upright figures and the stylized Mediterranean curly hair and top-knot apparently derived from the style of the Belvedere Apollo, and the measured quality of the faces, all rendered with strong artistic realism of Greek art.

    The Greek stylistic influence on the representation of the Buddha, through its idealistic realism, also permitted a very accessible, understandable and attractive visualization of the ultimate state of enlightenment described by Buddhism, allowing it reach a wider audience. During the following centuries, this anthropomorphic representation of the Buddha defined the canon of Buddhist art, but progressively evolved to incorporate more Indian and Asian elements.

    The interaction of Greek and Buddhist cultures operated over several centuries until it ended in the 5th century AD with the invasions of the White Huns, and later the expansion of Islam, but its influences lived on to present day in Buddhism.
    Last edited by Suppanut; October 12, 2009 at 11:52 AM.
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  18. #18
    Kara Kolyo's Avatar Mikhail
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    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    For Thrace it could be the Orpheic mysteries - some happines bonus maybe, because there is probably no way to just reduce the cultural unhappines.
    Or something about the thracian valey of the kings - dosens of tombs have already been discovered and many more looted.


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  19. #19

    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    I'm suprised no-one else has suggested The Great Marib Dam for Saba near Mariaba. What bonus' it would give i'm not s certian (perhaps a bonus to farming in all Sabaean owned territories), happiness bonus' perhaps?

  20. #20

    Default Re: XC4 Wonders Suggestion Thread

    How about port of Carthage for a unique building/wonder? (unless it's already in the game; haven't checked it, sorry) See here for an image. It must have been quite a naval hub in its time. It can give trade bonus to all settlements with ports and a small happiness bonus all over Punic lands, I guess.
    Last edited by Stilgar CG; January 26, 2010 at 01:24 PM.

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