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Thread: Question of the Prussian banner

  1. #1

    Default Question of the Prussian banner

    Hey,
    I've had a question which has been driving me crazy.

    Apparently the Old Prussians used this banner (If I'm correct)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Now the banner appears to have writing on it. Does anyone know that the alphabet used is?

  2. #2
    Casius Cherea's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Hi,
    check this links

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic_alphabet

    I'm not shure this is it, I'll try to check it for you.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Quote Originally Posted by Casius Cherea View Post
    Hi,
    check this links

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic_alphabet

    I'm not shure this is it, I'll try to check it for you.
    I don't see any relation with Prussians who were neither Slavs nor Cyrillic.

  4. #4
    Casius Cherea's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian_Noble View Post
    I don't see any relation with Prussians who were neither Slavs nor Cyrillic.
    Silly, of course Prussians were not Slavs, they were Balts. And they could not have been Cyrillic because it is an alphabet.
    Writing on a banner remainds me form of a cyrillic, but it is not Russian therfore I thought it may be Old Church Slavonic, I'm not 100% shure, tho.
    I was unable to find any more info bout banner script. It would be helpful to have more data about picture. Where it was published? Is there any name for that banner?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    As far as I can tell, this picture shows 3 main gods of prussians. Previous times I saw it, it had no letters on and neither was called "the banner"... Question is, why you say it is banner?






  6. #6

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Well, Lithuanians used Old Church Slavonic to Keep their early records [Lithuania Asending]; But the symbols have no great relation to them.

    Upon further research it appears that the Old Prussians and Lithuanians had their own runes for writing.
    However, Certain sources are at odds with eachother. The only sites that seem to reference Baltic Runes are the Romuva forums and the German Wikipedia which reads as follows:

    "Allgemein wird berichtet, die Prußen hätten keine Schrift gehabt. Diese Behauptung diente wohl der Unterstellung, man habe ein unkultiviertes barbarisches Volk bezwungen. Archäologische Funde weisen einen regen Handel mit Griechenland, Rom, kaukasischen Ländern, England und Skandinavien nach. Die Prußen hatten also Berührung mit Kulturen, in denen Schrift bekannt war. Simon Grunau schreibt von zwei Fahnen von je vier Ellen Länge und drei Ellen Breite. Die Kriegsfahne zeigt die drei Hauptgötter und weist eine Inschrift mit schwer zu übersetzenden Runenzeichen. Ähnliche Runen finden sich auf dem Runenstein zu Jelling (Dänemark). Es ist nicht auszuschließen, dass diese aus dem 5./6. Jahrhundert stammende Schrift von König Waidewut und seinem Bruder, dem Kriwe (Priester) Bruteno vom cimbrischen Stamm mitgebracht wurde. Mit der Zeit kamen Zeichen hinzu, die archaisch griechischer Herkunft sein können. Die zweite Fahne zeigt den Wappenschild des Waidewut oder eines anderen Fürsten. Das Schild wird von zwei Blauschimmeln in aufrechter Springposition gehalten. Auf dem Schild selbst ist ein Bär in Menschengestalt mit geöffnetem Maul und herausgestreckter Zunge abgebildet. Nach Hartknoch soll sie auch eine Inschrift gehabt haben.
    Beide Fahnen wurden noch im 13. Jahrhundert benutzt. Die Inschrift der Kriegsfahne (von Simon Grunau 1326 aufgeschrieben) bedeutet "Gott Korche! Zürne mit den Verheerern, tue ihnen Böses".
    Die Prußen übermittelten ihre Botschaften in Knotenschrift. Fäden und Schnüre in verschiedenen Farben und Stärken wurden an die "Kriwulen", die schlangenähnlichen Krummstäbe gehängt und drückten Nahrungsmittel, Gefahren, Materialien und anderes aus. Die Mengen wurden durch die Anzahl der Knoten dargestellt. Eingeritzte Runen zeigten Sender und Empfänger an. Andere Zeichen fanden sich auf Holzbrettchen, Tongegenständen, Häuten, Baumrinden, Stäbchen und Knochen.
    "


    It also has a good translation of the runes on the banner

    "God Korch, Be Angry with the Invaders. Do them Harm!"


    PS - I don't remember a Korch in the Baltic Pantheon, can someone help me out with this too?


    PPS - For an example of old Lithuanian writing you may wanna check out the Gediminas Sceptre calendar.


    PPPS - The Baltic mod needs a Prussian Faction :p


    PPPPS - I'm addicted to post-script! Help!
    Last edited by Yahiko_n_Tsubame; October 10, 2009 at 06:51 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Baltic runes?... I doubt it. Even tough I wouldn't mind to get more info about this






  8. #8
    Casius Cherea's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    I would not be suprise if Prussians have got some kind of modyfied letters be it runes or cyryllic. West slavs have some kind of writting which was not unerstandable for christian chroniclers.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Quote Originally Posted by true born Lithuanian View Post
    Question is, why you say it is banner?
    Because I'm still learning, If you could hook me up with the related lore on the specified item I'd love you forever.

    Now, For the

    Quote Originally Posted by true born Lithuanian
    Baltic runes?... I doubt it. Even tough I wouldn't mind to get more info about this
    GO GO GADGET-TRANSLATION!
    (do do do do do~ Inspector Gadget)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    It is generally reported that the Prussians would have had no writing. This claim was probably the insinuation that they had defeated one uncivilized barbaric people. Archaeological discoveries show after a busy trade with Greece, Rome, Caucasian countries, England and Scandinavia. The Prussians had contact with crops, therefore, was known in those letters. Simon Grunau wrote of two banners, each four cubits long and three yards wide. The battle flag shows the three main gods, and has an inscription difficult to translate runes. Similar runes found on the rune stone at Jelling (Denmark).

    It is not inconceivable that it from the 5. / 6. -Century written by King Waidewut and his brother, the Kriwe (Priest) Bruteno Cimbric was brought by the tribe. Over time, signs were added, may be the archaic Greek origin. The second flag shows the coat of arms Waidewut or another prince. The shield is held by two blue-grays in an upright position Springsteen. On the shield itself a bear in human form with an open mouth and protruding tongue is shown. After Hartknoch she should also have had an inscription.


    Both flags were still in the 13
    Jahrhundert benutzt.
    Century uses. Ie, the inscription on the war banner (by Simon Grunau 1326) written "God Korch! Be angry with the invaders, do them harm." The Prussians sent their messages into text nodes.

    Threads and cords in different colors and weights were hung on the "Kriwulen," the snake-like crooks and fired foods, hazards, materials, and from others. The quantities were represented by the number of nodes. Runes were carved on the transmitter and receiver. Other signs were found on wooden board, Tongegenständen, skins, tree bark, sticks and bones.


    SOURCE OF ABOVE TEXT



    Now, Is anyone here currently studying in the Baltics? If you are would you mind maybe making some inquires for me? The Material available in English is appallingly sparse.
    Last edited by Yahiko_n_Tsubame; October 12, 2009 at 07:18 AM.

  10. #10
    EarendilElenthol's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    MADTAO is from Latvia but you need a Lithuanian I'm afraid. But I've seen some here and there.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Quote Originally Posted by EarendilElenthol View Post
    MADTAO is from Latvia but you need a Lithuanian I'm afraid. But I've seen some here and there.
    Hmmm, Anywhere in the Baltics is probably fine.
    I'd like it if someone could ask their local Professors/Historians/Reenactors for information about Pre-Latin script in the Baltics, especially in relation to the above flag.

    Also, Some info on the flag itself would be nice


    Thank you all
    , for any help you can give me (seriously, I love you guys)

    PS - Also, can someone recommend a good University for Medieval Baltic History?
    I think I've pretty much decided that I'd like to learn as much as I can at almost any cost (Next summer I hope to go to the BALSSI program so I can learn Lithuanian or Latvian so I can go there to study)
    So far I've been hungrily devouring any book on this time period from Rowell's delicious "Lithuania Ascending" to "The Northern Crusades" and various book's on Catholicism in Lithuania.

    I'm addition, I've been toying with the idea of starting an Old Prussian Living history group.... However, I'd need to expand my knowledge before I set off on such an endeavor. (I have experience as an American Civil War reenactor but I think I may drop out of the unit to avoid my Father)

  12. #12
    EarendilElenthol's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Hmmm university of Tartu is an excellent university and next to that it is a nice place, but Im afraid you'll need to learn estonian then. (I have a cousin who emigrated to Estonia and studies there). Don't know much about the other places.
    There is a centre on medieval Lithuanian history, perhaps you should ask them for more information, next to that: learn German, as that was the main language for centuries of historians interested in Prussia and the Baltic region.

    If you have any additions for the mod, please tell, and, if you want to help in modding itself, you're welcome.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    I may suggest Polish University of Gdańsk and its department of history that include the Unit for Studies on History of Pomerania and Baltic Countries. There are quite a few nice books in Polish about the old Prussians - I have got for example "The history of Prussians" by Łucja Okulicz-Kozaryn, over 500 pages, some maps and drawings. I'm going to buy some other too Also there is nice community of Prussia enthusiasts in Poland, they have their own site and forum.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Quote Originally Posted by true born Lithuanian View Post
    As far as I can tell, this picture shows 3 main gods of prussians.
    i would guess that the middle figure is Perun:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    could the bearded one be Veles and the third Radegast?

    i realize these are slavic gods, but could they not be know to the Prusians/balts also, perhaps under somewhat different names?
    Hr. Alf han hugg til han var mod, Han sto i femten Ridderes Blod; Så tog han alle de Kogger ni Og sejlede dermed til Norge fri. Og der kom tidende til Rostock ind, Der blegned saa mangen Rosenkind. Der græd Enker og der græd Børn, Dem hadde gjort fattig den skadelige Ørn.
    Anders Sørensen Vedel

  15. #15

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Those gods are: Patolas, Perkūnas, Patrimpas.






  16. #16

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    True Born Lithianian, Do you know what god Korch was by any chance?

    Also, Thanks for the Universities.
    Still I'm rather surprised that none of the ones mentions were in Lithuania or Latvia

  17. #17

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahiko_n_Tsubame View Post
    True Born Lithianian, Do you know what god Korch was by any
    chance?
    Never heard of it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahiko_n_Tsubame View Post
    Also, Thanks for the Universities.
    Still I'm rather surprised that none of the ones mentions were in Lithuania or Latvia
    Well, the most prestigious university of Lithuania is University of Vilnius. I recommend to check it out






  18. #18
    EarendilElenthol's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Hmmm about the universities.... I just have no experience with both lithuanian and latvian universities as I live a few countries to the west I'd recommend the Lithuanian one though, because of the depressing state of the nation/state in Latvia. In Lithuania there is still hope for the country while a great deal of latvians seem to have lost it.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    I suppose Polish University might be a really good choice for studing old Prussian history. Reasons are few. For example most of the ethnic tribal Prussian territory is currently included in Poland. All this terrain is therefore explored by Polish archaeologists and the results are later discussed in many books and articles in various historical review series. Then Polish medieval history was much bounded with old Prussia. Poles tried to conquer Prussia and fought many wars with them, tried to christianize it (for example Polish patron is saint Wojciech - catholic missionary who came to Prussia in 997y and was killed) and even started an official crusade towards Prussian in 1166y. Prussian invasions on Poland was a reason for uniting of Polish Dukes who founded together a special guard formation on Prussian boarder. And then it was Polish duke that invated Teutons and Poles were major ally for them in Prussia conquest (some of the conquered Prussian lands were joined to Poland). If not the Polish support, Teutons would be wiped out from Prussia due to the two great Prussia uprisings. All these are reasons why the history of old Prussia is widely explored by Polish historians.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Question of the Prussian banner

    Any Polish university in particular?

    I was hopeful for a good university in Lithuania or Latvia so I could observe the old living culture as well (Midsummers and such) but if the instruction is good, I can look at German, Estonian and Polish universities too.
    I just took a look at University of Vilnius' site, It seems very interesting. However, I find the way they list their courses somewhat confusing.

    Also, I'm sorry to hear about the state that Latvia is in. I remember hearing about it before from Skyforger.
    I hope that things get better for the people of Latvia and that they do not abandon their cultural and historical pride in the face of such difficulty. Besides, while some elements of their government may be corrupt atleast they don't have to worry about getting sent to Siberia anymore

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