New Strategy for the WRE (BRG III)

[Octavius-Augustus]

Hi guys, I've started a new 463 campaign with the updated mod (BRG III). As I've noticed that WRE is now quite different to play with because of the extremely high unit upkeep and higher building costs, I make this thread so we can exchange ideas on how exactly to restore Roman Glory.

Now, from what I've seen so far, the old foederati strategy works no more. Even though one type of foeds have 0-turn recruitment time, they're still expensive so you can't overproduce. Overall unit costs are now quite even. Even town watch is expensive. So we'll need a new sound strategy to prevail. Here's what I've tried so far.

1. Economic improvement + defensive strategy:

Actions: I focused all my cash in improving the economy and public order. I upgraded Ricimer's troops and send them to defend the pass leading to Arretium. I decided to wait out on any aggressor (such as the Vandals). I disbanded all unnecessary troops (such as Candidati in Augusta Vindelicorum). Naturally, I don't accept candidates for adoption - they cost as much as 4000 upkeep.

Result: After couple of turns I make around 10k profits and have almost all settlements happy. Leaving a small garrison in Messana was a mistake - I lost it to rebels, even after I tried to break the siege with some minor reinforcements from Italy. I destroyed all buildings before losing it, though.
The Vandals tried to pass into Italy from Mariana, but I fought them back for now with minor losses. (Very important for the early game, it seems.) Some more turns and I'm starting to lose money (maybe the loss of Messana?). I will probably have to think of a more agressive approach - invading Corsica and Sardinia because I'm in debt now.

The only tip I have for now is to recruit Pedites Romanii. They have an upkeep as high as the town watch and fight well overall. I try at the moment to replace most of my field troops with these guys.

This is what I've done so far. Not impressive of course, but it does raise questions for the later stages of the campaign. What should I try next? What's your initial strategy?

[margio]

Hello Octavius Augustus and welcome !
Starting managing firstly Economy and Public order is right for long term and successfull strategy. I suggest to go on for more turns (someone once said a micromanagement for 6/7 years ...) keeping the Ricimer's mobile army on defense.
Choosing a more aggressive strategy, you should go to Sicily... more rich and a useful "bridge" to Africa after.
Furthermore to build forts within cities (with Pedites Romani as you said... and Archers) could save money, because with one fort you can defend more towns, instead to guard each town with strong garrisons. Of course that for the towns closer to borders (and moving then to the next one) and as soon as your treasury allow that ...
Then looking carefully to the buildings linked (stables with stud_farm as an example) can give more money, not so much, but anyway useful.
Of course what above, it worked for my campaigns.
Finally I agree with you, concerning Foederati... now their recruitment have to be careful, due their increased upkeep cost, but it's also true that they cost less to buy than true romans troops...

I like your thread, where to exchange ideas and suggestions to let Eagles fly high again ..., but also Barbarians and Sassanids are welcome...
I would like to play Bulgars, cavalry based faction, but I'm looking to 434AD Campaign with ERE or WRE now.

I think that someone (always the same ...) should open a thread to post Empires/Kingdoms for BRG III... or we can use the old one ...

ayeaye Sirs

[Octavius-Augustus]

Hehe, thanks, Margio! I'll keep you posted on what I've done so far. I'm now out of debt and making about 20k per turn! I don't know what caused my economy to slip at one point, but the finance report pointed to a large setback in trade for some time. Interestingly, the economy boomed again and everything is now OK. I'm moving into Corsica and Sardinia and Sicily is next..

Sorry, what did you mean by building forts within cities? As in mercenary forts? How would one fort guard several cities? Sorry, just don't get it

And sure, all are welcome, I just figured that WRE was a bit more different in the new patch and called for brand new strategies. But it seems I was wrong. Same strategies, a little different approach. I also forgot to mention I play the 463 campaign, which is obvious since I mentioned Ricimer. But anyway, silly me.

I'm Bulgarian by the way, but can't help it to play WRE. Bulgars are well represented, with some inaccuracies of course, but little is known about them at the period and they are not a big player in the world at that point in history. Should be fun to play, though.

[zero911]

Hello everyone,

Octavius-Augustus since I just started the same campaign as you with the same nation - that is WRE AD 463 on VH/VH. I chose slightly different path. In this game you are in a race with time. Sooner or later you will be attacked by all northern barbarian nations - ostrgoths, franks, burgundii and visigoths. From my brg II expirience I can say it will be really difficult to hold those barbarian nations away from italy. Therefore you shoud build as strong econ as you can and at the same time be able to make if neccesary reduce the fight to merely one theatre of war - that is north italy. If you will be threatened form sicily corsica, sardinia or africa by vandals - I think your defence in the north will be prone to failure.
Therefore - Ricimer and his legion should always be busy. Bashing vandals of course. Corsica, sardinia and sicily is top priority. Then africa, iberia, or greece - your choice where to go, all directions have good and bad moments which you should value prior attacking. Just do not go north, there will be real bloodbath there, and cities are really poor.
By adviceing you to build forts I believe margio meant that you should build not mercenary forts, but land forts on strategic points - river crossings or mountain passes. Acutally norhtern italy can be defended by 6-7 forts with 1 unit inside, and plus 1-2 mobile legions.
As for build up - econ is priority. Italy cities have no problems with loyalty. So build up economy. In conquared cities which are of barbarian heritage - loyalty buildings is priority. At the north you can build some smiths in order to get better equiped troops, you will need them. And set the taxes as high as possible.

[margio]

Sorry, what did you mean by building forts within cities? As in mercenary forts? How would one fort guard several cities? Sorry, just don't get it

"Defend" instead of "guard" it's the right word, but let me explain ...
You have two/three towns close to borders, maybe with an aggressive faction, and you have to defend them.
You can...
... have an army there to defend those towns, but that means that this army is obliged to stay there, stopping your conquest.
... recruit strong garrisons in those towns (but it depend also by what you mean to garrison enough a town...), maybe as you suggested with Pedites Romani. Usually enemy attack with one ram, one tower and two ladders: that means to have 4/5 Pedites (maximum 4.730 solidi) and I suggest 2 Archers (2.444 solidi) useful to slow run of ram and maybe let it flamed by towers. That means about 7.174 solidi for one town, multiplied two or three times... 21.522 solidi maximum.
... build a fort (with a general) at useful distance within the three towns. Recruiting inside 6 Pedites and 3/4 archers (total 9.342 solidi) they can deal with incoming armies and even garrisoning the three towns with 3 Western Peasant (8.982 solidi) to keep public order, you have a total cost of 18.324, that saves 3.198 solidi.
Maybe it is not a huge amount, but you know that even 100 solidi are very useful ...
Maybe it's not a big or strong enough army to fight against a full stack army, but it can give you time to provide additional reactions to face invasion, before starting to lose towns, mainly later in BRG period.

I hope to have been useful, and anyway it's a strategy that have to be managed very carefully... and finally it worked enough fine for me ...


ayeaye Sir

[margio]

I'm Bulgarian by the way, but can't help it to play WRE. Bulgars are well represented, with some inaccuracies of course, but little is known about them at the period and they are not a big player in the world at that point in history. Should be fun to play, though.

In all campaigns with Rio mod's, I always played infantry based factions (Saxons, Ostrogoths, WRE, Sassanids, Franks, Romano British...). Or I played them based on infantry or mixing with cavalry (Sassanids), but anyway infantry troops were two/three more than cavalry units.
Bulgars have Bulgars Infantry that is strong (even if I would prefer them with javelins too...) and Bulgars Swordsmen useful, but their armies' core is cavalry. That means different strategies and tactics from what I played till now... that's why I am really looking deeply into Bulgars ...

ayeaye Sir

[zero911]

I noticed strange thing - WRE is making a good money. In 468 italy plus islands plus thapsus carthage and chullu cities in africa give an income of 210000 Unit's average cost is 2000, basically I can upkeep 100 units that is 4 full legions (btw which would be made of much better units than limitanei) plus lightly garrisoned cities. I can hire mercenaries, this is perfect. Steamrolling those poor vandals there. So far so good.
Btw - margio how did u avoid using mass cavalry with rome? They have excellent cavalry. Mass heavy cavalry and cavarly archers mixed with with heavy infantry to a ration 1/4 HC, 1/4 CA and 1/2 infantry is a killer for infantry based hordes like franks. I remember those guys decimated my infantry based legions, but were helpless against hammer and anvil tactics used by half cavalry half infantry legions And decisive mass charges of heavy cavalry joined by cavalry archers for better charging impact is some very nice sight. Have fun bashing everyone with bulgars, btw I think you will still need infantry - just to tie enemy spearmen, or cavarly archers to break their formations prior charging.
Hmm.. interesting fort tactics you wrote here, my forts were always nothing more than alert and temporal slow down points till mobile legions will come and assault enemies. This reduces defence cost of upkeeping few mobile legions plus few single, usually worn out units which were understrenght in forts. I always was short of money - too many wars on too many sides.

[Octavius-Augustus]

First of all, thanks to everyone for the input. I don't have much time lately to play though, but I'll post in the thread anyway. It's gonna be a long post, so sit tight or don't read it at all

@Margio: Ohh, now I get it. I guess I got mixed up because you said 'within' cities. I shouldn't have thought much into that. You clearly stated that with one fort you can defend several cities. It's all clear now of course. I also don't like garissons in cities for protection. In case of a siege, I really hate sallying out, except if it's large army against large garisson. It's quite frustrating to have a whole army besieged. Plus, as you said, I can defend several cities this way, along with saving some solidus. So I'll definitely use this strategy.

Regarding the Bulgars: Yes, they seem to have a balanced roster. Historically, especially in that period, I'm quite inclined to say that the Bulgars had an almost 100% cavalry based military. They weren't hardcore nomads as some historians would say, but they still valued the horse and mounted warfare more than anything. (Even their 'flag' was a horsetail.) Later on, they incorporated the savage Slavic infantry and were a real threat to ERE (as you probably already know).
Still, since RTW is alternative history, it's realistic to believe the Bulgars could dismount when needed to fight as infantrymen. This makes them really strong, yes. Also, the starting position in the steppes would call for some brutal invasions... Sounds really fun. I haven't played a lot with cavalry based factions in any RTW mod or even vanilla, so it would be a real challenge for me.

@zero: VH/VH! Impressive! I don't know how you even win battles. I play Hard Campaign, Medium Battles. Not that I don't like hard battles, I'm just not a fan of huge bonuses to the AI's units. Just isn't fun IMO. Also, VH campaign doesn't offer much, especially since on Hard the AI gets a cash injection every turn. (On VH it doesn't, I believe.) I prefer having to fight more armies (or just stronger, richer factions) than just very strong armies because of bonuses.

Regarding strategy: I also smell the filthy barbs coming in from the North. I already switched to aggressive moves with Ricimer to get rid of the immediate Vandal threat and strenghten my economy. Maybe I could use some more cavalry, as you pointed out. But the 'easy fort' strategy, I really don't like. It's not that in real life a few men could hold a fort for almost an year in BRG time. Of course if the AI wants to, it can roll over these weak forts. But it doesn't. RTW AI hates forts and even if it rarely builds up enough courage to besiege one, it often just quits before it captures the fort. Really annoying, but I prefer not exploiting the AI. So I'll just use margio's strategy regarding forts. Everyone has his own style of play of course. Also, you have that much cash? It's actually hard to believe. I know Carthage is a real money-maker, though. Also, I don't even have Sicily yet. So maybe it's normal. Do you build buildings everywhere you can? Do you have navies? How many family members do you have? They cost a lot. Maybe the new patch just boosts WRE in that regard, which is in a way great. I just hope that they're not too strong now, steamrolling everything.

I'll post more when I actually play, maybe post some screens if I'm in the mood. Bye for now, guys.

[zero911]

Octavius-Augustus, it is not really that difficult to win battles on VH. This slight bonus partially compensates AI flaws. What you need is A - good generals with good morale bonuses. Ricimer is excellent example. B - good troops which acutally is hardest part to achieve... C - outnumber enemy - that is the best strategy. Outnumber not in total numbers, but at certain spot at certain time. Even now, when vandals lost islands, and Chullu, Carthage and Thapsus - they still have more army than me. But their army is spread over whole northern africa, and mine is concentrated in one spot of africa, therefore every time I go into battle I do outnumber vandals despite I have less troops in general.
it is however difficult to beat larger than yours enemy army with less troops. Difficult, but possible. Also AI makes one huge tactical mistake every time with very very very huge patience. Arranging troops in bad way. They usually arrange troops in 3 lines in dense but not very wide formation. I tend to arrange my infantry in single line wide formation with double or even triple cavalry lines on both or one flank, depending on how much cavalry I have. If you have too few cavalry - better gather them in one fist on one flank than divide into two. If you are unsure of your infantry - bad quality, low morale or something like that - general must be in the middle just behind your infantry - for morale upkeep purposes, not in the mass of cavalry (if your infantry starts running - at least one unit, it usually means that battle is lost or there will be very heavy casualties on both sited). If your infantry is able to hold the enemy horde for 1 minute - enemy will usually get outflanked, then surrounded and metodically hammered by cavalry. First get hammered low morale units, when they rout - I usually hit better units of theirs, and finally sooner or later there will be huge general rout of enemy which will usually end in total annihilation of the enemy army. You should try, not that hard. I play this game since rome total war was released and only on VH/VH for ultimate fun. RIO'S mod - BRG II gave me biggest challenge, and therefore biggest fun. It is getting really hard when barbarians finally evolve and come to the italy to get your lands.
About forts - it is up to you what fort system to use. Just the fort system I described is not unpenetrable. On the contrary - during last campaign I had lots of problems keeping it functioning. It was penetrated few times with loss of towns behind defence system. Also I was totally unable to set such system of forts versus franks - due to high numbers of their horders around. So I guess it is not that big exploiting of AI weakness. Trust me - when it does want to go through - it goes through Just you get warned in time, and can send legions - if you have what to send of course there. It is not a real defence - it is a warning system. And for warning you do not need much troops, do you?
About economy - I have income 210000, not profit. After army upkeep is payed it is only around 80000-90000, after I order buildings - pure profit is only around 40000. What family members I have - all default family members plus I adopted 2 generals - one with 2 initial stars, the other with 3 and trait obessional trainer. What I built from econ buildings - metal trading posts, luxury trading posts, food trading and things like that. Then I built this newly introduced thing prerequisite for provincial governors and the governors themselves. Also in rome and ravenna I built logistics up to maximum. You can actually see how much you will get from item you build - simply look at your towns total trade summary, then order some building and watch what it shows. The future profit you gain from trade will be shown as transparent cart, the current profit will be shown as non transparent cart. There will be exact numbers what you gain after you build such buildings if you scroll over the carts. So choose the item to build which gives you hugest momental profit.
And since the game is race with time - YES, I do build buildings every turn in every town. I want to have as big income as possible.
No, I do not have navy except those 2 default ships which are given at very beginning. I will buiild more if enemy tries to block my ports however. And for ferrying troops those 2 ships are more than enough, as I try to end turn in one of my ports in italy, islands or africa. And the active army is one full legion of good-average quality plus mercenary cavalry from africa under the Ricimer. Also one half of legion, mainly foot archers gathered from all over the italy's towns also operating in africa led by other commander. And 1/4 of legion in the north of italy - setting up the system of towers and forts and clearing rebels.
No, WRE is not too strong I think. However it's econ is very easily turned into more or less profitalbe in first turns, and there are no real enemies around. Ostrgoths are busy getting neutral towns, so do visigoths I think - fight in Iberia. Franks are expanding their dominion - far from you. Vandals close to you but they are extremely vulnerable since they are dispersed all over the africa and islands. What I wanted to say... so far you have no real enemies But later on you will have

Have fun, I also came here after a bigger break, had vacation, then comp damaged and so on, now I am here and maybe will post something too if others do

[Octavius-Augustus]

@zero: Most helpful advices, mate. Keep us posted on your future strategy, in case you change it, of course. I suppose in RTW you can't have that many versatile strategies, but you could still improvise

I hope this thread isn't dead. If everyone is busy as I am, this may explain the inactivity.. Anyway, as soon as I get BRG III up and running as it should, I'll start posting here again.