Free will vs Predestination

[Dr. Oza]

i am really having a pickle with this one

because if god controls and knows all.. then he(for lack of a better pronoun) knows all those that will sin and that they wil sin before they do

and the idea of free will is then destroyed.. because what you will do is already decided

and again.. if god knows and controls all time and space.. then he knows who will go to hell and who wont...

why do the people who sin sin?

because they were destined to...

because in truth.. if god is all knowing.. then they had no control over their actions.. in taht everything they did was already known and destined by god

... in this sense.. free will doesnt exist.. its a allusion.. because even if we choose something .. its already known that we will choose that decisions.. and thus we are pawns

without any control

thoughts?

explanations?

ideas?

[Playfishpaste]

This is wrong on three counts.

1. If god is illogically omnipotent, he could easily circumvent this problem.

2. If god is logically omnipotent, then he can make it so that the end result has multiple possible outcomes, and yet is still the same, ala wave-particle duality.

3. If god is dialetheistic, then the final outcome is true and not true.

[Copperknickers II]

Yes, a good argument but there is a small logical flaw.

[Dr. Oza]

1. If god is illogically omnipotent, he could easily circumvent this problem.

i dont quite understand this.. but i take it you mean if god was omnipotent.. then this problem doesnt exist???
... could you elaborate?

2. If god is logically omnipotent, then he can make it so that the end result has multiple possible outcomes, and yet is still the same, ala wave-particle duality.

good point.. but the idea is the same.. in that there is no freewill in any of the outcomes.. .they are decided even before they happen

If god is dialetheistic, then the final outcome is true and not true.

hmm

[Playfishpaste]

i dont quite understand this.. but i take it you mean if god was omnipotent.. then this problem doesnt exist???
... could you elaborate?

No, if he was illogically omnipotent, meaning he is above logic. In this way he can work in a way where directly contradictory things can still be true.

good point.. but the idea is the same.. in that there is no freewill in any of the outcomes.. .they are decided even before they happen

But there is free will in them. The amount of possible outcomes doesn't make free will lessen. If I have free will to eat thousands of different chocolates, but if there were only two types of chocolates in the world, I'd still have the same amount of free will.

hmm

Mind you, the third view is kind of dumb since anything would be true and not true.

[Dr. Oza]

But there is free will in them. The amount of possible outcomes doesn't make free will lessen. If I have free will to eat thousands of different chocolates, but if there were only two types of chocolates in the world, I'd still have the same amount of free will.

yes but if god is omnipotent
then he knows which cookies you will eat before you eat them
and he being controller of all that is.. made it so
thus its not really free will

its the illusion of free will

[Playfishpaste]

yes but if god is omnipotent
then he knows which cookies you will eat before you eat them
and he being controller of all that is.. made it so
thus its not really free will

its the illusion of free will

No, because depending on your decision the cookie could be a cookie or not a cookie, again, wave particle duality.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

because if god controls and knows all.. then he(for lack of a better pronoun) knows all those that will sin and that they wil sin before they do

and the idea of free will is then destroyed.. because what you will do is already decided

Knowing what (free) choice a person will make in advance does not mean that choice was forced upon them. That reasoning does not follow. Common sense tells you you have a will (you can make choices and decisions freely). Common sense also tells you that God is omnipotent (if he created the universe out of nothing then he is above all created things, since they are his creation). And there is no illogicality about saying you have a free will (in the sense that you make choices freely/because you want to and they aren't forced upon you when you don't actually want to do it) and yet God has predestined everything.

[Ummon]

Let us for a moment pose that:

1) every possible universe exists.
1b) this implies that we have an infinite number of universes, each one with different values of the basic physical constants.
2) even in our universe allows life by mere anthropic principle (we are in a universe which allows life because we are alive) we cannot exclude others exist.

Let us then imagine that given a number of local conditions, these universes can sync: that is slightly different universes (universes with slightly different characteristics) can pass information to each other.

Logical omnipotence, logical infinity, free will.

[Yaga Shu Ra]

A simplification of the above:

All possible outcomes exist (God is omnipotent), are known (God is omniscient) and made possible (by granting us free will)

[Dr. Oza]

but the outcome you will choose eventually no matter what is already known by god... thats my problem with the above

evne if there are millions of possible outcomes... the one that happens is "destined" if we assume that god controls time and space.. and so

we in reality are just following a destined path that we have the "illusion" of control over

[SigniferOne]

but the outcome you will choose eventually no matter what is already known by god... thats my problem with the above

evne if there are millions of possible outcomes... the one that happens is "destined" if we assume that god controls time and space.. and so

we in reality are just following a destined path that we have the "illusion" of control over

Our choice is not 'destined', and there is nothing that will determine it or necessitate it to be what it will. All God has is the capacity to look into the future to see the actions you will make, although nobody forced you to make them.

A 'future known' action needs to be 'presently determined' only for a temporal creature like us, which exists in a specific time. God exists in the future as well as in the present and in the past, he's sitting there 'in the future' seeing what actions you did earlier. However at no point is there a forcing of your will, which is critical.

[persianfan247]

Let us for a moment pose that:

1) every possible universe exists.
1b) this implies that we have an infinite number of universes, each one with different values of the basic physical constants.
2) even in our universe allows life by mere anthropic principle (we are in a universe which allows life because we are alive) we cannot exclude others exist.

Let us then imagine that given a number of local conditions, these universes can sync: that is slightly different universes (universes with slightly different characteristics) can pass information to each other.

Logical omnipotence, logical infinity, free will.

Say, what if there are two universes, one created by a God and one not created by a God and the 2nd is essentially an Atheist's version of the other universe, what implications could this have? probably none at all really I guess. I might as well say what if there is a universe created by a rock.

[Nikich103]

nope... I'm afraid you are wrong... Christians are not a robot... life is not a preprogrammed application... We chose what we do and nothing is forced upon us.... Yes god is all-knowing... but he can be surprised! Mark 6:6! Jesus was surprised that these people are so unbelieving! He was also surprised at the faith of the centurion. And yet God knows everything, right? God does know how we will act in certain situations and he does have plans for people, but where does it say in the Bible that God's plans can't change?

[CtrlAltDe1337]

nope... I'm afraid you are wrong... Christians are not a robot... life is not a preprogrammed application... We chose what we do and nothing is forced upon us.... Yes god is all-knowing... but he can be surprised! Mark 6:6! Jesus was surprised that these people are so unbelieving! He was also surprised at the faith of the centurion. And yet God knows everything, right? God does know how we will act in certain situations and he does have plans for people, but where does it say in the Bible that God's plans can't change?

God's plans don't change. He declares the end from the beginning, making things known that have not come to pass, period. They don't change. Not because they can't change, but because they won't change, because people choose to do certain things. Theoretically, there are almost an infinite amount of possibilities that could occur, but God knows (and takes an active role in) what will occur.

They are two separate things and its not illogical to say that God predestines everything, yet people are not robots but free agents (free in the sense that they can make choices independent of any "programming" as it were, not that they are free from God's control or plan), and may be said to exercise free will in this sense of the word.

[Nikich103]

well what about jonah? if you read very carefully then god wasnt planning on letting the city of ninevah live... jonah was sent to just say that the city will be destroyed., but the ninevites repented and god spared them...
or Jeremiah 18:7-10 "If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it."
as i said, nowhere in the bible does it say that God's plans never change... im sorry for being rude but that is something you made up....

[CtrlAltDe1337]

well what about jonah? if you read very carefully then god wasnt planning on letting the city of ninevah live... jonah was sent to just say that the city will be destroyed., but the ninevites repented and god spared them...
or Jeremiah 18:7-10 "If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it."
as i said, nowhere in the bible does it say that God's plans never change... im sorry for being rude but that is something you made up....

God at many times condescends to our feebleness when describing himself. He is described as having hands, feet, eyes, ears, etc. He is described as looking over the whole earth to see if there are any righteous. He is said to not hear the hypocrites when they seek him. God sees all, hears all, and has no (physical) body. But these things are said because we cannot even begin to comprehend the nature of God. God is also said to repent (turn away) at times, like with Nineveh and the Israelites. If you remember, God said he would make Israel a great nation, yet he told Moses he would have destroyed them in the wilderness had not Moses prayed for the people. Did God lie? Of course not. It is giving God human-esque attributes that we may try to understand him.

But this brings us back to the same concept. What could (potentially) happen and what will happen are two different things. If Moses had not prayed would God have destroyed the Israelites? Yes. But did God change his mind? Not really, since he knows all and had already made a promise to Abraham and had predestined everything to happen as it did. I will bring is Scripture verses if you want me to, but I have to go now.

[Dr. Oza]

Our choice is not 'destined', and there is nothing that will determine it or necessitate it to be what it will. All God has is the capacity to look into the future to see the actions you will make, although nobody forced you to make them.

A 'future known' action needs to be 'presently determined' only for a temporal creature like us, which exists in a specific time. God exists in the future as well as in the present and in the past, he's sitting there 'in the future' seeing what actions you did earlier. However at no point is there a forcing of your will, which is critical.

god controls all

thus he controls what you do

[Marcus II]

Because God has the power to control any given microcosm in the universe he created does not necessarily imply that he does, even at all.

Think of a laboratory scientist. He creates certain conditions and watches how things play out. At any given point, he has the power to stop an experiment, alter conditions, or do anything on a whim. Just because this scientist has the power to do so, does not necessarily imply that he will.

To conclude, because God has control does not mean he exercises it. Not so hard, eh?

I mean, seriously come on

[SigniferOne]

god controls all

thus he controls what you do

Then there is no morality, you don't need to try to be honest or virtuous in any sense, and thus -- God has no basis on which to judge you, making his whole experiment with humanity pointless.

Great job on refuting all religion.