Auxilia Palatina VS Comitatenses

[Silent Gent~]

I have a question about the differences between the Auxilia Palatina and the Comitatenses. Being as the Auxilia Palitina were the elite infantry of the Late Roman Empire, were the descendants of the Praetorian Guard, and were even mainly composed of that former entity and would go on to serve as an elite Palace guard and then later be attached to the mobile field armies, shouldn't they be more powerfull than the Comitatenses?

From my research the two divisions are as follows:

The establishment of a mobile, regional Field Army called the Comitatenses that was based at a central location behind the frontier was the basis of Diocletian's new plan. This force would be able to react rapidly to a breach in the frontier or any other problem in their region.

In addition to the regional Field Armies, there was the Emperor's own central Field Army known as the Praesentalis (the army in the Imperial presence). This was formed of higher quality and status units, which were, termed Palatini. In practice, the units of the Palatini and the Comitatenses ended up serving in both the central and regional Field Armies.

I think based on this the Palatina guards should be stronger in our Mod, and be a special elite.

[Prince of Judah]

Nice assessment. I'm pretty sure that they will upgrade the stats for legionary palatinae. I don't really know about anything about auxilia palatinae. I didn't know the unit existed until you asked for me to post a picture of the unit. That's why I ended up posted three units instead of one.

[Riothamus]

I have a question about the differences between the Auxilia Palatina and the Comitatenses. Being as the Auxilia Palitina were the elite infantry of the Late Roman Empire, were the descendants of the Praetorian Guard, and were even mainly composed of that former entity and would go on to serve as an elite Palace guard and then later be attached to the mobile field armies, shouldn't they be more powerfull than the Comitatenses?

From my research the two divisions are as follows:

The establishment of a mobile, regional Field Army called the Comitatenses that was based at a central location behind the frontier was the basis of Diocletian's new plan. This force would be able to react rapidly to a breach in the frontier or any other problem in their region.

In addition to the regional Field Armies, there was the Emperor's own central Field Army known as the Praesentalis (the army in the Imperial presence). This was formed of higher quality and status units, which were, termed Palatini. In practice, the units of the Palatini and the Comitatenses ended up serving in both the central and regional Field Armies.

I think based on this the Palatina guards should be stronger in our Mod, and be a special elite.

I really dont think by this time there was much difference between the Palatini and comitatenses as a unit although the Palatini continued to carry more prestige. Possibly an elite senior Palatina unit could be branched off such as the Cornuti or Brachiati?

[Prince of Judah]

I really dont think by this time there was much difference between the Palatini and comitatenses as a unit although the Palatini continued to carry more prestige. Possibly an elite senior Palatina unit could be branched off such as the Cornuti or Brachiati?

Are those two units in Invasio Barbarorum 1 or Barbarian invasion?

[Silent Gent~]

I really dont think by this time there was much difference between the Palatini and comitatenses as a unit although the Palatini continued to carry more prestige. Possibly an elite senior Palatina unit could be branched off such as the Cornuti or Brachiati?

I like the idea of the elite senior units being created. I also would suggest that the Herculiani and the Ioviani should be added as well Rio since they were the primary senior palatine Imperial Guard units of the Emperor up till the 7th Century AD.

In regards to the standard legionary or Auxilia Palatina units, perhaps to differentiate them from the standard Comitatenses they could have better armour stats than the Comitatenses as their higher pay and status would afford them the ability to field better equipment, not to mention that since they were the Emperor's army elite they would have a better defensive ability which would add to the defense numbers.

Nice assessment. I'm pretty sure that they will upgrade the stats for legionary palatinae. I don't really know about anything about auxilia palatinae. I didn't know the unit existed until you asked for me to post a picture of the unit. That's why I ended up posted three units instead of one.

Thank you Imperiumiv, It would be nice to see the legionary palatina upgraded a little bit to reflect a slight difference between the Comitatenses.

[midnite]

auxilia palitinae upg0 -- 1st level and upg1 -- 2nd level



previously the auxilia palitinae did not change visually when the unit was upgraded with a black smith or armorer -- now they do.


The unit now receives helmets and armor for all its men when it is upgraded. Previously there was no change. This will be added to patch 3.

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

My understanding is that the auxilia palatini were originally units recruited from barbarian tribes hence the names who evolved into crack regiments and recruited from Roman and barbarian volunteers later.

So the Cornuti and Brachiati for example originally were formed from barbarians from those tribes but later had all sorts of Roman and barbarian individuals in them.

The key difference in their ranking within the Roman army lay in the prestige attached to the units - many emperors favoured them as can be glimpsed in the writings of Vegetius so that it became attractive to serve in the auxilia regiments more than the legion regiments - and as a consequence rate of pay and conditions were better.

Another key difference lay in the operational role of the auxilia - these regiments were smaller than the legions around 500 to 600 in strength and were trained to be much more flexible and tactical in their roles - often providing light troops, skirmishing roles, deep patrols into enemy territory, for example. As such, while elite in training and carrying quality equipment, the auxilia were also not viewed principally as heavy front-line infantry as such. They were also brigaded in pairs for better operational support.

This made the auxilia both adaptable and prestigious - the elan which comes from fighting in units which have a special history (respected warrior origins) and fighting role (we cross rivers on horseback in full armour, what do you do?) was a natural consequence here.

In the time frame of this mod, I am not sure that these tactical distinctions were still relevant, but in game-play style, units of auxilia palatina would perhaps field a mixture of light and heavy units of only 2 to 3 units cards of Huge strength and either operate alone as part of a pair deep in enemy territory or be placed in the second rank of a main battle-line to support the work of the palatine or field army legions. In the latter role, of course, they could flank and crack a barbarian battle-line.

http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/numbers.htm

[Silent Gent~]

auxilia palitinae upg0 -- 1st level and upg1 -- 2nd level



previously the auxilia palitinae did not change visually when the unit was upgraded with a black smith or armorer -- now they do.


The unit now receives helmets and armor for all its men when it is upgraded. Previously there was no change. This will be added to patch 3.

They look excellent Midnite!

[julianus heraclius]

My understanding is that the auxilia palatini were originally units recruited from barbarian tribes hence the names who evolved into crack regiments and recruited from Roman and barbarian volunteers later.

So the Cornuti and Brachiati for example originally were formed from barbarians from those tribes but later had all sorts of Roman and barbarian individuals in them.

The key difference in their ranking within the Roman army lay in the prestige attached to the units - many emperors favoured them as can be glimpsed in the writings of Vegetius so that it became attractive to serve in the auxilia regiments more than the legion regiments - and as a consequence rate of pay and conditions were better.

Another key difference lay in the operational role of the auxilia - these regiments were smaller than the legions around 500 to 600 in strength and were trained to be much more flexible and tactical in their roles - often providing light troops, skirmishing roles, deep patrols into enemy territory, for example. As such, while elite in training and carrying quality equipment, the auxilia were also not viewed principally as heavy front-line infantry as such. They were also brigaded in pairs for better operational support.

This made the auxilia both adaptable and prestigious - the elan which comes from fighting in units which have a special history (respected warrior origins) and fighting role (we cross rivers on horseback in full armour, what do you do?) was a natural consequence here.

In the time frame of this mod, I am not sure that these tactical distinctions were still relevant, but in game-play style, units of auxilia palatina would perhaps field a mixture of light and heavy units of only 2 to 3 units cards of Huge strength and either operate alone as part of a pair deep in enemy territory or be placed in the second rank of a main battle-line to support the work of the palatine or field army legions. In the latter role, of course, they could flank and crack a barbarian battle-line.

http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/numbers.htm

Yes, it is my understanding that the Auxilia Palatinae may go back to Constantine's father Constantius Chlorus who created the units from the Rhinelands. These units were loyal to him, then his son Constantine. There were originally ten units but greatly expanded upon overtime. They were seem to be a link between the more heavily armed legionaries/auxilaries which had now become almost identical.

In fact the original auxilia palatinae units may have been unarmoured but by the md to late 4th C onwards become more heavily armoured like their legionary counterparts. Some troops in both the legiones and auxlia were lightly armed and used as skirmishers being called lanciarii named after the light throwing spear that they were armed with.