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Thread: The Marathas - Information & Discussion

  1. #21
    Flikitos's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Navneeth Jay View Post
    The Marathas did not defend their territory from 1700-1760! That's absurd! Firstly, note that the Maratha are a rebel faction; all their territories were acquired through conquests of Mughal territories. Indeed, the War of 27 Years was concluded by 1707 and had virtually broken all Mughal conceptions of conquering the Maratha. It was the MUGHALS that were on the defensive after that point.

    "[Tarabai] fought heroically and captured Berar, parts of Gujarat and Baroda which belonged to the Moghuls. This was a great insult to the Moghuls in general and Aurangazeb in particular. In the meantime, Aurangazeb died in 1707 and his ambition of conquering the Deccan remained a dream."

    Also mentions that she conquered 6 Mughal provinces in her 8 years in full power (obviously smaller provinces than in game).
    Be careful, Marathas came from the state of Maharashtra, as Wangrin said you can be rebel and defending your Region, look at the Jacobites, United States both of them did not want to invade all the British territory, only the state where they lived, and about Marathas, they goal was to have an independant nation of the Mughal Empire. Then as Wangrin said, their power allowed them to extend their border.

    The second thing is that question of extendship is not really important for the mod. Yes the marathas are rebels, yes they will extend their borders, that is the only thing that IS III will care, we are quite limited without modding tool. By the way thank you Wangrin for your presentation, I hope that Fortes or Okmin will take into consideration your brillant work! Thank you.

  2. #22
    wangrin's Avatar Unguibus et Rostro
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    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    UPDATED - post about Maratha : Artillery and European influence chapters are done and I've added a chapter about possible in game roster


    « Le courage, c’est de ne pas subir la loi du mensonge triomphant qui passe, et de ne pas faire écho de notre âme, de notre bouche et de nos mains aux applaudissements imbéciles et aux huées fanatiques.. » Jean JAURES

  3. #23

    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    Oh, ups!

    Heh, I forgot to include that they didn't "only" defend! I was trying to imply that they didn't only start conquests by 1760.

    1760 was actually when they stopped expanding (by force, not will) and were forced to defend from British and Afghan incursions, to the contrary.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    The roster of Marathas' armies evolve throughout the XVIIIth century.
    What is important for the game, is that we can consider 2 rosters :
    • the early one, mostly composed of 2/3 native infantry and 1/3 native cavalry ;
    • the later one, mostly composed of native cavalry and with some Europeanized regular regiments (infantry, artillery and cavalry) ;

    Native cavalry units should be highly mobile to represent the predatory tactics that Maratha used.
    The laters units should be far less mobile, at least, no more than average for infantry and cavalry (Europeanized one) and less than average for artillery.

    In his book, Raj Kumar spoke about the Peshwa period, but didn't define it.
    To what I've read, I suppose this period begin around mid-XVIIIth century, but I'm not sure of this.


    « Le courage, c’est de ne pas subir la loi du mensonge triomphant qui passe, et de ne pas faire écho de notre âme, de notre bouche et de nos mains aux applaudissements imbéciles et aux huées fanatiques.. » Jean JAURES

  5. #25

    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    The Peshwa period appears to be from 1713 to the fall of the empire in 1818.

    This is based on the reigns of Balaji Vishwanath (1713-1721), Bajirao (1721-1740), Balaji Bajirao (1740-1761), Madhav Rao (1761-1772), Narayanrao Rao (1772-1773, assassinated), Sawai Madhavrao under administration by Nana Phadnis (1773-1795), and the decline of the Peshwa's power by Baji Rao II's treaties with the British.

    In short, I would say the Peshwa Period was from 1721-1818. Bajirao's independent conquests marked the true political superiority of the Peshwas to the Monarchs, in my view.

  6. #26

    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    If you still feel willing to listen, I could supply a bit more information of the Marathas. Source is:

    Keay, John. A History of India. London: HarperCollins, 2000


    This book has an unfortunate absence of information on the Maratha. Much of it is centred on the state's effects on the Mughals. Nevertheless, here is some information on diplomacy and general military information on them.



    Strengths of Faction

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    -Superior Maratha Light Cavalry units exist in the early army. They are abnormally fast, enduring, have slightly low upkeep, and are fair in melee
    -Maratha have diverse native Maratha Cavalry: Light Lancers, Light Cavalry, and Lancer Cavalry. The three balance as melee proficient but low charge, high charge but melee impaired, and melee + charge minus mobility
    -The Pindari Cavalry are cheap, have larger unit sizes, low upkeeps, and exceptional mobility/campaign map speed. However, they are awful warriors with horrible morale. Their primary use is to chase routing units and raid enemy buildings
    -Guerrilla Warriors are available. They are fast, enduring, and can walk whilst hidden. They have fair melee and fare quite well against Mughal matchlocks when used in ambush
    -Spearmen exist with the pike wall ability. While not as good against cavalry as pikemen, they have better attack, are faster, and are great in ambushing Mughal charges when hidden
    -The Maratha have the most diverse recruitment options in India. Various tribal localities in India are available to their recruitment per area (i.e. Rajputs, Sikhs, Arab Mercenaries, perhaps even few Kalari martial artists and Gurkhas in the event Kashmir is captured)

    -If the Maratha capture any Indian territory of Hindu majority during 1700, they will face very very little resistance to foreign occupation. The Maratha's confederate government also gives reduced resistance even in Muslim and Sikh regions
    -The early Maratha army is more mobile on the campaign map than most factions and is loyal to Shivaji's cause, having good morale
    -The Maratha can European-ise their military through multiple technologies. This provides units of superior training (i.e. firing drills, formations), plus modernised artillery, line infantry, skirmishers, etc. However, many of these units lack the swiftness, loyalty (morale), camouflage, and map travel speed of the early army



    Weaknesses of Faction
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    -The guerrilla/light nature of the early army generally gives Maratha units bit of a poor melee defence (except perhaps for spearmen). They are not meant to be Stonewalled against an army of Mughal heavy cavalry, artillery, heavy infantry and matchlocks. Maratha success depends on hiding, the manoeuvering of their speedy cavalry, swift attacks, and tiresome retreats from the sluggish Mughals
    -The early army does not have large scale access to firearms. They should be limited to perhaps 6 regular musket units and 3 superior musket units, all costly, relatively accurate, but slow to reload and weak in melee. The Mughal's lack of swift units to chase them keeps them safe when supported
    -Mughal heavy cavalry can be a grave threat to light infantry. Tactics rather than units are needed to defeat them
    -The early army lacks modern artillery, having only obsolete cannon that would compromise Maratha mobility





    Faction Summary


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The "Maratha", before the creation of their kingdom, were a group of Hindu aristocrats with greater wealth and power in their region than average citizens. They were not kshatriyas, unlike the northern Rajputs, but rather "made" kshatriyas through a dealing between Maratha Emperor Shivaji Raje Bhosale and a brahmin.

    The Maratha always relied on the success of their light cavalry. Their speed made them far superior in their geography of their homeland against Mughal invasions.

    They were rather inspirational to other Hindus in the region, which helped in their efforts to conquer the entirely Islamic kingdoms around them. This was aided by a religious tolerance greater than that of most Muslim kingdoms and a confederate government that allowed local rulers with presence in their regions to govern independently. These attributes allowed them to make and keep massive gains in territory through a relatively short period of time.

    For their specific regions of control, they never held all of Carnatica, but the regions in the game map are not flexible enough to give them a substitute. On the campaign map, the regions which they would control circa 1730 are Bijapur, Ahmadnagar, Malwa, Berar, Gujarat, and perhaps parts of Hyderabad (which was actually its own state).

    By the zenith of Maratha power (circa 1760), it would control Rajputana, Orissa, half of Hindustan, and border portions of Bengal, Sindh, and Punjab. Mysore was never conquered. Cochin, Goa, and the rest of Carnatica were also never conquered.


    While cavalry was extremely important to Maratha victory, melee infantry was still more common in terms of numbers by 1700. The Maratha did not use the bow to a great extent; the spear/lance was known to be used as a javelin, though. Cavalrymen (and possibly some infantry) would charge with them, toss them at the enemy, and fight with swords.

    After an alliance with the Rajput states, the Maratha did employ Rajputs to help them fight. However, the alliance was relatively short as it was destroyed during the Third Battle of Panipat (1761), along with a good portion of the old Maratha veterans. Most lost territory was regained, but the Peshwa's prestige was damaged by the loss. Afterwards, British conquests of neighboring territories would eventually rise to conquests of the Maratha themselves. The Anglo-Maratha wars would chip off Maratha territory and eventually consume it all. Most of these conflicts were instigated by the Peshwa's submission to the British for succession rights, angering the Maratha chieftains.




    They also never conquered the entire Mughal Empire, much less the entirety of India.

    Surprisingly, they did make peace with the Mughals in 1719 and officially ended their war in return for a 35% tribute of revenues in Mughal provinces in the Deccan to the Maratha. In return, the Maratha officially would accept Mughal rule in the Deccan and pay tributes.

    This part is somewhat confusing to me as the author continues that the next Peshwa, Balaji Rao I, would conquer more Mughal territories right after 1720. I'm assuming the Maratha simply took the one-time revenue cessions and broke the treaty. By 1940, Rajasthan, Delhi, Orissa, and Bengal were already reached. (I still assert my point that this is far from Wangrin's claim that the Maratha defended Maharashtra from 1700-1760)




    Also worth mentioning; while many units like Sikhs did not find themselves in Maratha service, since many regions in the map were not conquered by the Maratha, one could simply say that they would recruit them in a what-if scenario.
    Last edited by Navneeth Jay; September 22, 2011 at 03:59 AM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    It would be nice if you could at least consider this information and give feedback. It took quite some time to come up with.

    One severe issue of Empire that makes India a non-dynamic theatre, by the way, is the fact there are only three native factions. There were AT LEAST five major factions at any given time in India after 1715 or so. These included Mysore, Hyderabad, various Rajput States, the Mughal Empire, and the Maratha Confederacy. To the South, there was also Travancore in Cochin.


    Whatever you may change, please, PLEASE ensure that no faction keeps dominating all of India. Adding more factions might not be feasible, but could you somehow add some rebel factions or something similar to pirates that can keep the Mughals and Maratha in check?

    It not only affects Indian factions, but Europeans are unable to colonise anything if the Maratha keep establishing their Mauryan-sized empire. Internal conflict was quite necessary for European conquests.
    Last edited by Navneeth Jay; September 22, 2011 at 04:17 AM.

  8. #28
    Flikitos's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    Great thank you Navneeth Jay! We will need your knowledge as soon as we will start the Indians factions.

    +rep

  9. #29
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    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    I agree, India absolutely need to be rework

    It is possible to replace some vanilla factions with new one.

    For instance, French cultural group is composed of :
    • France
    • Louisiana
    • Quebec
    • French rebels

    It is possible to keep only France, Louisiana and French rebel to use Quebec as a new faction for India (renaming, etc.).

    What we need for factions in IS is :
    • an EARLY XVIIIth and a MID/LATEunit rosters ;
    • documents about "uniforms" and equipments ;
    • a list of technologies ;
    • etc.


    It could be a good Idea to add, at least, one faction to India.
    Actually, we have :
    • Mughal
    • Maratha
    • Mysore
    • Sikh (emerging)

    Rajput states could be interesting.
    Of course, adding a new faction is a lot of work (creating a complete unit roster for instance...).

    What your first choice will be Navneeth Jay if it is possible to add one faction ?

    Your knowledge will be very important for us to create accurate factions for India.
    Last edited by wangrin; September 22, 2011 at 06:25 AM.


    « Le courage, c’est de ne pas subir la loi du mensonge triomphant qui passe, et de ne pas faire écho de notre âme, de notre bouche et de nos mains aux applaudissements imbéciles et aux huées fanatiques.. » Jean JAURES

  10. #30

    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    No need to exaggerate my importance.


    But which faction? The Sikhs, seeing as they already exist, will be present. They currently are poor replicas of the Maratha (not even possessing Sikh units ), so reforms should be made for them. It would be particularly helpful to have a Sikh religious building and missionary to prevent Punjab from becoming fully Islamic or Hindu.

    But the Sikh Confederacy did not exist by 1700. I presume you've designed methods of planned rebellion for your European campaign? Those will be very important in India.




    The Rajput States are otherwise the most important faction. They would either control Rajputna by 1700 or rebel immediately when the campaign begins. If possible, they should be made to become a protectorate of the Maratha by 1720-1730. If not, they should always be allied or in a protecting position. If you wished to be VERY historical, Persia would declare war on them and the alliance would break by 1960. But that isn't necessary.

    For the specific unit roster... one thing about Indian armies at the early 18th Century is that they probably didn't have universal outfit (hence the lack of documents on them). Creativity can be exercised, or whatever existing examples of uniforms and armor could be considered their general outfit. And common relatively generic soldiers can be shared amongst several Indian factions for simplicity. What would be true is that the Rajputs would rely on heavy cavalry of the highest quality in India and heavy infantry. They might rely on more traditional weapons early on due to their proud martial traditions.

    One chief outfit associated with Rajput soldiers (heavy cavalry, often) was the chainmail helmet. The Rajput Zamindar unit in Elite Units of the East is a fair model. But other models tend to be the same as soldiers of other North Indian armies. Ahiga might be of more help than I in designing these.



    Nevertheless, I'll make sure to give any documents if I come across them. And thank you for accepting my assistance. I'll eagerly wait for the improvements of IS III.
    Last edited by Navneeth Jay; September 27, 2011 at 08:15 PM.

  11. #31
    wangrin's Avatar Unguibus et Rostro
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    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    This blog is interesting : Golconda Rising
    Those figurines and documents can be use as "informations" to create models.

    About Persians :
    Some flagbearers pictures : The Lion and Sun motif of Iran: A brief Analysis
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    « Le courage, c’est de ne pas subir la loi du mensonge triomphant qui passe, et de ne pas faire écho de notre âme, de notre bouche et de nos mains aux applaudissements imbéciles et aux huées fanatiques.. » Jean JAURES

  12. #32

    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    If specific historical units can't be found, you could designate a unit based on their weapon. This could be useful since the Maratha, Rajputs, and Mughals had a diverse set of hand weaponry.

    Katara (Punch Dagger)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Pata (Sword & Gauntlet. These can either be used with a small buckler or dual wield)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    These are Urumi swords. They were primarily used in the Cochin region. However, they are meant to be whipped around and so I doubt an animation can be compatible with it. Take note that most are single-strand rather than branched.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    [IMG][/IMG]


    Khanda (Sword used primarily by Sikhs and Rajputs. The symbol of Sikhism features version of this)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Cavalry type




    Sang (Rajput Lance, fully steel}
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    This one is very interesting. It's a Bandaq musket, a HUGE matchlock that had to be placed upon ramparts or a stand. It would be more appropriate to term this light artillery rather than a small arm. Used by the Mughals.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    My main concern is if there are any animations compatible with these weapons. I'm rather unsure about this.

    This is how the Maratha practiced swordplay. This can't be used as an animation, I'm fairly sure...

    Mardani Khel
    Last edited by Navneeth Jay; October 01, 2011 at 12:49 AM.

  13. #33
    wangrin's Avatar Unguibus et Rostro
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    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    Some of those weapon will need new animations :
    • Katara could replace knife but hand animation should be modified ;
    • Pata need a new animation too ;
    • Bandaq musket will probably need a modified animation (muket), I'm not sure it will be possible to add it to the game.


    Urumi will be impossible to animate, so I think we have to forget it.
    Khanda and Sang could be added without difficulties.

    The main problem is that we need somebody able to modify animation.
    It is possible to extract them using UU3D but I don't know if it is possible to modify them using UU3D or if an other tool is needeed.

    I think that Idian musketeers should use a shield like this picture show it :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Here is an example of Hindu irregulars I wish to use as models :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    I really want to add diversity in artillery but I don't think it is possible.
    This is what I wish but is almost certainly not possible :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    New Hindu Greens
    Rajput Cavalry greens
    Rajput Cavalry pictures
    Mysorean Greens
    Painting the Mysorean Regulars
    Painted Mysorean Regulars
    Bengali Equipment
    Bengali Sepoys greens
    How to Paint the Bengali Sepoys
    Painted Bengalis
    More Painted Hindus
    Indian Bunduqchi
    Fanatics
    Native Grenadiers
    African Mercenaries
    Silahposh of an Indian Prince

    Mansabdaris
    Arab Cavalry

    You can never have enough...!!!


    « Le courage, c’est de ne pas subir la loi du mensonge triomphant qui passe, et de ne pas faire écho de notre âme, de notre bouche et de nos mains aux applaudissements imbéciles et aux huées fanatiques.. » Jean JAURES

  14. #34

    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    The bandaq reminds me of the Chinese 'jingal':


    Fun times

  15. #35

    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    Although this has doubtless already been taken into consideration, I'd just like to add my support to the idea of a weakened Maratha faction and possibly additional ones in the Peninsula. Judging by the fact that the Mughals usually don't recruit ery much and just send single-unit raider armies around the place, the Marathas squash them within 20 turns, no fun

    Also, they have no other real enemies on land and few internal problems, as well as an insane capacity to spam units. It makes things less interesting for a European faction who would seek to maintain a balance of power, or for a Mughal player who just has to fight enless Maratha spammed waves...

    These are largely Vanilla problems left over in the majority of mods, so this isn't a criticism directed at IS or any other modification, I just have faith that you guys will be able to deal with them fairly

    Regards.


    Under the patronage of the formidable and lovely Narf.

    Proud patron of Derpy Hooves, Audacia, Lordsith, Frodo45127 and Sir Adrian.

  16. #36

    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    Indeed. Playing as the British, the Maratha just declare war on me and take a province in America every 10 turns. It's pretty humiliating. And I can't do much to stop it. They recruit fully sized expensive armies and navies at incredible speed.

    India REALLY must be divided... the Maratha and Mughals won't be able to conquer foreign provinces if they have to keep fighting each other until 1760.

  17. #37
    wangrin's Avatar Unguibus et Rostro
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    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    Here is a campaign map of India.
    What factions could we add and where ?
    Moreover, we have to care about 3 differents periods : early XVIIIth century, mid XVIIIth century and late XVIIIth century.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Maratha are far too much powerful, but their unit roster will be reworked (stats, models, etc.).


    « Le courage, c’est de ne pas subir la loi du mensonge triomphant qui passe, et de ne pas faire écho de notre âme, de notre bouche et de nos mains aux applaudissements imbéciles et aux huées fanatiques.. » Jean JAURES

  18. #38

    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    I'm not too knowledgeable on the subject, but these documents may be useful:

    1700


    It would perhaps be interesting gameplay-wise if the regions shown (aside from the Marathas, who would have their own region) start off revolting or about to, although the Mughal player actually starts with some real, numerous armies with which to start quashing them.



    This map appears to be largely nominal, but it's interesting because it highlights how fully independent the Polygars were. It also serves as a painful example of CA's geographical rapine regarding European settlements...

    1741 French influence:


    I like this map because it pretty clearly grants France legitimacy to owning an in-game region and would provide good grounds for the inter-European conflicts of the 7YW, which would be very interesting to see in the mid-game of IS.




    1760

    So, Hyderabad with two regions or three? Both would be interesting, but I don't know which would suit gameplay best.

    1785


    Two regions in Brit hands, I suppose, but an issue here is which factions to include seeing as there are so many!

    As for factions worth considering, the Sikh Confederacy, the Nizams of Hyderabad, the Rajputs, the Durrani and the Madurai kingdom with the Polygars would be the most 'stately' examples, perhaps? Others, such as Oudh, seem less applicable, but I'd like to hear what the expert Navneeth Jay has to say on this seeing as I really don't know enough.


    Under the patronage of the formidable and lovely Narf.

    Proud patron of Derpy Hooves, Audacia, Lordsith, Frodo45127 and Sir Adrian.

  19. #39
    wangrin's Avatar Unguibus et Rostro
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    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    This map from wikipedia could also be useful :

    INDIA MAP : 1700-1792

    EXTENTS OF MUGHAL EMPIRE


    So factions in India could be :
    • Mughal Empire
    • Maratha Confederation
    • Mysore
    • Rajput States (Mughal's vassal ?)
    • Sikh Confederation (emergent)
    • Madurai Kingdom

    We should also find
    • Portuguese (Goa)
    • Netherland or V.O.C (Ceylan)
    • French or Compagnie des Indes Orientales (Orissa) but not at the beginning of the great campaign
    • British or E.I.C (Bengal) but not at the beginning of the great campaign


    W.I.P : INDIA CAMPAING MAP


    « Le courage, c’est de ne pas subir la loi du mensonge triomphant qui passe, et de ne pas faire écho de notre âme, de notre bouche et de nos mains aux applaudissements imbéciles et aux huées fanatiques.. » Jean JAURES

  20. #40

    Default Re: The Marathas - Gameplay Discussion

    So are the white regions placeholders for different factional gains/losses during the different IS camapigns?

    And you also might want to consider the Durrani Empire for the mid/late campaign.

    This looks really promising though, seeing as the India map in vanilla is rather lifeless.


    Under the patronage of the formidable and lovely Narf.

    Proud patron of Derpy Hooves, Audacia, Lordsith, Frodo45127 and Sir Adrian.

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