Sweden - Information & Discussion

[Haakon]

Sweden is probably my favourite faction to play as. Their infantry is pretty strong in melee, and I was able to destroy an army about twice my own size in Denmarks last stand against my forces.

This is what happened :

I destroyed the Danish navy and took Copenhagen. I sent a small army up to take Iceland and suprise suprise, they had a full stack waiting there for me. Their soldiers had better aim and the autoresolve odds were about 70-30 in their favour. Then I checked the unit stats and my army had superior melee stats.

The battle starts and I place all my soldiers behind some walls and wait for the enemy to approach. Then when they drew near I selected the melee option and sent about (IIRC) 900 troops against almost 2000 enemy infantry. A messy bloodbath happens but one after the other the enemy units routs and I stand victorious. One of the more fun battles I've had in Empires.

Only thing that buggs me is that artillery doesnt work at all. I've downloaded the hotfix but no results.

[ilikepie]

I've played plenty of Custom Battles as Sweden, and here's what I think. The Swedes seem to be best on flat terrain where they can quickly push their cannons up to the middle of the battlefield and deliver a straight charge. However, playing on the "Siberian Plateau" map, a map in which both players start at the bottom ends of a hill up to a forested plateau, they were weaker, as the forest split my line so that a strong attack on one side knocked them out. They also seem to be best countered by Poland. The Swedish strategy is to match and overwhelm the opponent's line in melee, which doesn't work against Poland since cavalry has no line. The cavalry rode circles around me, forcing me to turn or leave my back exposed, and then charged me when I was poorly formed.

[trance]

Here's the deal with the Indelat vs Varvat thing.

This all comes down to the way that Sweden recruited its army. Essentially, they were both just Swedish Infantry. However, the Indelat went home and farmed and took care of the family for most of the year, whereas the Varvat was a permanent force. It had been noted by observers at the time that the Indelat had amazing morale (and in the game they really do. Their morale is the same as most nations' grenadiers), while the varvat did not. This introduces an interesting dynamic: Indelat, with worse training but higher morale, and the varvat, with better training and worse morale.

It is supposed to be that way in the game, and Varvat Infantry shall not be given an increase in morale. This poses a choice for the player: use the better stats option and hope to route the enemy before taking too many losses yourself, or use the worse stats option which you can be assured will stick around for a while.

Both yes and no. The carolean tactics required that all soldiers had exceptional morale. Since their tactics involved marching under heavy enemy fire until you "could see the white in the enemy's eye". Firing a volley, then charging. Add to high training, the fact that the carolean force were more or less religious fanatics. Värvat infanteri does not qualify for those carolean tactics as it is now, which would make them obsolete in the swedish army. While I am not contesting that the Indelat infanteri would have higher morale, 5-8 is a huge step. Värvat certainly deserves at least a 6, lest they simply can't withstand enemy fire close range.

[Erunion Telcontar]

My experience with Sweden is that their Varvat and Indelat each play to a different style of warfare. If you intend to use classic Carolean tactics, use the Indelat. If you prefer a more Euro-traditional style of warfare, or playing a defensive game, the Varvat are right for you.
However, if you're really clever, you can use the Indelat troops as the frontline of your charge, while keeping the Varvat in reserve. The Indelat absorb the fire and engage the enemy, then you use the Varvat to finish them off.
Sweden is one of my favorite factions, becuase while still an essentially "Euro" faction, it is completely unique.

[THEMIK DK]

denmark just do sweden stronger in ETW. there are so bad in campain

[Lusen]

Yea, Denmark aint very good in the GC. But what the heck, nothing can resist the almighty swedes anyway

[trance]

In my campaign I found that attacking DK at start was a good way to get in trouble with Russia and Poland prematurely as well as ruining diplomatic relations with the other european countries. And if you don't take DK out at start, it grows to become something of a monster :O.

[whynaut]

If making the AI do the "one volley and then charge" routine is a priority, why not set the ammo stat to something ridiculously low, so they lock in to melee and charge. Downside would be that if forces players to do the same thing. Maybe the change could only apply to the indelat infantry. After all, who needs bullets when you're a religious fanatic?

[Erunion Telcontar]

That's what we have done, most Swedish troops have only 7(? I think) rounds of ammunition, as opposed to the 20-30 most factions get.

[The Vicar]

Which, when the change was introduced, made a lot of people very unhappy, because we were forcing them into a certain method of playing.

However, 7 rounds might actually still be too much, as by the time that a unit fires 7 times, it's basically finished for the battle (provided that it's going 1 v 1 in a line battle, natch). There isn't much left to then be used in melee.

So here's a question for you Sweden-lovers, as we do want the AI to use their troops effectively. Which of these options do you prefer, were we to do a quick re-structuring of Sweden?:

1) Leave the units the way they are. Small unit sizes, strong melee ability, but the AI doesn't seem to want to actually engage in melee.
2) Increase unit sizes to the 200-man normal. This would require a re-adjustment to the unit stats, so that unit-for-unit the Swedes don't become OP. The big downside for this one is that one of the defining characteristics for Sweden right now is their small unit sizes, which gives them a "feel" of being an elite force. Changing the sizes might destroy that effect.
3) Cut the ammo count even further for Line Infantry (units such as Jager would be exempted) to something along the lines of 3. This would force the AI to utilize melee tactics. Perhaps not very well, but it would be done. The downside to this option is that we would then be forcing the players into, at times, a play-style that might not tactically make sense in a given situation.
4) Some other solution that we haven't thought of yet. Please explain your idea clearly.

[ilikepie]

I pick number one.

[cottontail]

no 1. for now. I like my Swedish supermen

[wiskey78]

Did you try flagging them as Grenadiers or melee? I'm not sure if they could retain firing drills if flagged as melee but its worth a try

[Charles XII]

Which, when the change was introduced, made a lot of people very unhappy, because we were forcing them into a certain method of playing.

However, 7 rounds might actually still be too much, as by the time that a unit fires 7 times, it's basically finished for the battle (provided that it's going 1 v 1 in a line battle, natch). There isn't much left to then be used in melee.

So here's a question for you Sweden-lovers, as we do want the AI to use their troops effectively. Which of these options do you prefer, were we to do a quick re-structuring of Sweden?:

1) Leave the units the way they are. Small unit sizes, strong melee ability, but the AI doesn't seem to want to actually engage in melee.
2) Increase unit sizes to the 200-man normal. This would require a re-adjustment to the unit stats, so that unit-for-unit the Swedes don't become OP. The big downside for this one is that one of the defining characteristics for Sweden right now is their small unit sizes, which gives them a "feel" of being an elite force. Changing the sizes might destroy that effect.
3) Cut the ammo count even further for Line Infantry (units such as Jager would be exempted) to something along the lines of 3. This would force the AI to utilize melee tactics. Perhaps not very well, but it would be done. The downside to this option is that we would then be forcing the players into, at times, a play-style that might not tactically make sense in a given situation.
4) Some other solution that we haven't thought of yet. Please explain your idea clearly.

Number.One Easily! Edit: I mean who cares of Ai In a choice betveen Ai and Player?

Both yes and no. The carolean tactics required that all soldiers had exceptional morale. Since their tactics involved marching under heavy enemy fire until you "could see the white in the enemy's eye". Firing a volley, then charging. Add to high training, the fact that the carolean force were more or less religious fanatics. Värvat infanteri does not qualify for those carolean tactics as it is now, which would make them obsolete in the swedish army. While I am not contesting that the Indelat infanteri would have higher morale, 5-8 is a huge step. Värvat certainly deserves at least a 6, lest they simply can't withstand enemy fire close range.

I agree! More for historyic accuarcy!

Yea, Denmark aint very good in the GC. But what the heck, nothing can resist the almighty swedes anyway

Hello! (is it Lusen from SG?) ps. Bonaparte

[trance]

A lil' late but #1 imo

[The Vicar]

lol I love it.

Better late than never.

[NikolaTesla]

Keep sameeee

[Rifal004]

id pick the ammo reduction, I mean if you chose too play as Sweden you should do it because you want to melee your opponents so who needs ammo. Cut it too 3

[Charles XII]

Just asking as i have found few mods which reflects this: During a large period of the The Great Northern War the sweden line infantry companys included about one rank of pikeers, Also the swedish cavalry and infantry used two types of wärjor. Don't know when they stopped using them though. about 1800 i'll guesss

[Rifal004]

The Pike was being gradualy Fazed out during The Great Northern War, By the battle of Poltava (1709) only some of the lower officers Carried Pikes and halfpikes. Wärjor?? Why not use the proper English word:Rapier. The Cavalry used a Heavier Rapier that could be used for Cutting and Thrusting whle the Infantry and Officers used a Lighter one designed for proper fencing, although the standard infantryman would prefer his bayonett. As the pike became rarer more and more infantry were supplied with bayonettes that were originaly only given to the Grenadiers