Avari / Dark Elves

[Evan MF]

I read up that in Rhun there were breeds of elves that did not submit to the calls of Valior. They were corupted by. Possibly we could have some 'dark' elves unit for Rhun?

Here is the text I read:

'The Unwilling'; those of the Elves who refused the summons of the Valar to dwell in Valinor, and remained in the dark wilds of Middle-earth. Some of the Avari, it is said, were corrupted by Melkor in ancient days to become the progenitors of the race of Orcs.

What do you think?

Evan

[Seleukos_I.]

Well I don't think there is room for such a unit. Most of them still were elves and fought against evil. And those who were corrupted were turned into orcs.

[Muffer Nl]

yes they were corupted but to such a degree they were no longer elves.

[Lordinquisitor]

IIRC the avari who were corrupted weren`t traitors, but captives.

And while i`d love an avari faction, an good faction in the east, i don`t want them to be in the official TATW.

We have almost no information on them- So the team would have to made almost everything up- Not just for them, but for other races in the east as well.

That`s why we have submods. An submod covering these was (is?) in development.

[Blackomur89]

IIRC the avari who were corrupted weren`t traitors, but captives.

And while i`d love an avari faction, an good faction in the east, i don`t want them to be in the official TATW.

We have almost no information on them- So the team would have to made almost everything up- Not just for them, but for other races in the east as well.

That`s why we have submods. An submod covering these was (is?) in development.

Yes the Avari where captured and tortured by Melkor and through that torture orcs came to be, because Melkor couldn't create anything only corrupt...

While I think that the Avari would look cool I doubt that they will be in the official mod seeing as they do not exist by the time the mod starts, they all vanished in the first age I think.

[Louis Lux]

I believe there were still some Avari among the silvan elves. Unlike Harad and Rhun that have a well rounded roster, the Silvan elves could benefit from an additional unit, a nice concept would have to be made for them but they could easily be made into a low tier unit.

[Evan MF]

I believe there were still some Avari among the silvan elves. Unlike Harad and Rhun that have a well rounded roster, the Silvan elves could benefit from an additional unit, a nice concept would have to be made for them but they could easily be made into a low tier unit.

Perhaps only recruitable by elves if they captured Rhunic lands?

[PaddyPower]

I believe there were still some Avari among the silvan elves. Unlike Harad and Rhun that have a well rounded roster, the Silvan elves could benefit from an additional unit, a nice concept would have to be made for them but they could easily be made into a low tier unit.

I proposed a concept for an Avari unit for the Silvan Elves in the 'Some future unit ideas' thread. They would add some much needed variety to the rather limited Silvan roster, I'm sure there are more pressing things for the team to be working on though.

[Louis Lux]

I don't know from where you are getting that they exist only in the Rhun region. From Tolkien Gateway:
"The Avari after the end of the First Age started to mingle with the remnants of the Sindar producing the Silvan Elves"
"it is speculated however that Dorwinion was an Avarin land"
This would justify a low tier unit of the Silvan Elves that is recruitable since the beginning or an AOR from the Dorwinion region. Perhaps even a mercenary unit for the elven factions in that region that would provide some backup for the elven expansion in the east.

[Evan MF]

I don't know from where you are getting that they exist only in the Rhun region. From Tolkien Gateway:
"The Avari after the end of the First Age started to mingle with the remnants of the Sindar producing the Silvan Elves"
"it is speculated however that Dorwinion was an Avarin land"
This would justify a low tier unit of the Silvan Elves that is recruitable since the beginning or an AOR from the Dorwinion region. Perhaps even a mercenary unit for the elven factions in that region that would provide some backup for the elven expansion in the east.

I'm taliking about the elves that ventures out to those regions and settled there. They did not respond to the calls of Valar. They may have been corupted by Melkor. They could be 'dark' elves.

[pannonian]

I'm taliking about the elves that ventures out to those regions and settled there. They did not respond to the calls of Valar. They may have been corupted by Melkor. They could be 'dark' elves.

Talking from a strictly Tolkienverse POV, there weren't any Elves that were described as "evil" as a group. Orcs were painted as such, but they were no longer Elves, if they were Elves in the first place. Dark Elves were simply those who never reached Valinor at the time of the Two Trees, and thus include the Sindar, while the Light Elves were those who saw the light of the Trees. Dark Elves include the likes of Beleg, Cirdan and Mablung, who were obviously on the side of "good", whereas Light Elves include the sons of Feanor, who were involved in several massacres of fellow Elves.

Nimrodel in the story of Amroth might be representative of the least "good" of the Avari - afraid of the Valar and the Valinorean Elves, and wishing only to be left alone.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Yeah, the Avari definitely weren't evil, merely "unwilling" to sail to Valinor. They were called the Dark Elves because they "had not seen the light", don't mix them up with the D&D's dark elves.

Maeglin could be an exception, was he of the Avari? Still, he's only one man elf and even he wouldn't actively work to support the evil powers.

[Seleukos_I.]

Maeglin was half Noldor and half Sindar I think.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Actually it was his father "Eol the Dark Elf" who was an Avar (though he was Thingol's "vassal") while Aredhel was Noldor (Turgon's sister). I guess I should've looked it up right away.

[Withwnar]

Avari and Dark Elves are not the same thing. Avari are the ones that never went on the journey West at all; they stayed behind in the land that they awoke in. They don't include the ones that went on the journey but didn't go all the way to Valinor: Sindar, Silvan, Nandor, Green-Elves, Grey-Elves, etc.

That Tolkien Gateway quote about Sindar + Avari = Silvan sounds a bit odd.

[Evan MF]

Well then what are Dark Elves like then...

[Jean=A=Luc]

Well then what are Dark Elves like then...

Well, they're just elves. Not much is known, afaik they prefer to live in isolation and not-be-bothered. As I said, info is scarce but I'm sure you can find out some details if you google them or check any of the sites I keep repeating.

[Evan MF]

Well, they're just elves. Not much is known, afaik they prefer to live in isolation and not-be-bothered. As I said, info is scarce but I'm sure you can find out some details if you google them or check any of the sites I keep repeating.

Sure I'll check sites but I want your insite too!

[pannonian]

Well then what are Dark Elves like then...

Dark Elves are those who weren't in Valinor at the time of the Two Trees, whereas Light Elves were those who saw the Trees. Strictly speaking, the Sindar counted as Dark Elves, but they weren't quite Dark Elves as they had set off with the intention of going to Valinor, but only held back to wait for Thingol after his disappearance. Thus they are inbetween, or Grey Elves. Avari, "the Unwilling" were those who refused to follow Orome on the journey to Valinor. They had already encountered some of Melkor's creatures, and some hid themselves when Orome stumbled across the Elves, whereas others didin't want to leave Cuivienan, or otherwise did not follow Orome. There are other Dark Elves who started the journey, but fell out along the way. Among those were Denethor's Green Elves, who crossed into Beleriand relatively late.

[Withwnar]

Which means that all Elves in Middle-Earth are Dark Elves. Except for the Noldor - and Thingol too (in the First Age).

Avari are Dark Elves, but only one of the 'branches' of Dark Elves.

Not much is said about the Avari. I read somewhere (this forum I think) that they eventually headed West and found and joined the Silvans in Mirkwood. But were any still left in the East? To my knowledge there's no official word on that. I'd love to see them in-game in some form or other, but, as Lordinquistor said, best left as a submod because of its lore fuzziness.

There was talk quite a while back of a submod based in the East which included an Avari faction. I wonder what came of that. I'll dig around...

EDIT:
Found the link: TW - New Shores. It includes the East, not based in it.